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| Need Help Diagnosing Starting Issue ('84 manual) (Page 3/4) |
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theogre
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SEP 07, 12:34 PM
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Yes, pull the starter for a store to "bench test" it. This is Not simply connect to power and see if it spins.
Plus See my Cave, Starter
Because If you mess up shimming then the starter can Bind or way worse.
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I don't disagree... but I'd still suspect 38 year old battery cables (and/or their connections) over a one year old starter. |
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At the fail rate of New Parts you think this? I've seen a lot of DOA and fails even days later w/ New Parts. And More Problems w/ "Rebuild" and "Re-Manufactured" parts. Is Why I get AZ etc w/ good warranty because can need the warranty in days to weeks. Even a "Re-Manufactured" ECM this week is "DOA" w/ flashing CEL/MIL but not setting "Codes," setting codes w/o even starting the engine, and other problems. Now testing second unit from same source w/ old spare unit so can switch if needed away from home.
And this assumes you buy product from AZ et al and not Eflay and others often sell crap parts.
If cables are OE GM parts... I'll trust them unless have damage to wire, ends, or both. Problem is most people can't tell by looking of many damage types.
Worse, Even if wire and other parts are really good.... many replace GM w/ cheap aftermarket cables w/ Lead Battery ends on Side Terminal battery and the lead can "warp" where the bolt hits making bad connection.
Warped lead ends are easy because many also Over Torque the bolts too and Lead just crushes. There is a reason why most "Battery Wrenches" are very small to prevent fools wrecking the cable and often the battery itself. GM etc Actual made a "Torque Wrench" for side term bats in decades past for same reason.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lLJEUzw6Es ~ 5:20
End result?
Most should replace battery cables when the starter is replace for any reason.
Because Iffy starter before they die completely can over load the cables and heat them causing hidden damage.
While in the past I said use ACDelco because have same Packard/Delphi battery end... Others now carry same including GP Sorensen and Standard w/ Standard often on Amazon and cheaper then AZ and other part stores. I just bought 2 Standard cables on Amazon for less cost of 1 GP Sorensen cable from AZ.
Even then will remove the plastic cover on battery end and coat metal w/ silicon or permatex brake grease. That helps keep acid and more important for Fiero "Water" off the connection. (Only reason I'm getting new cables now is because old + cable hit a sharp end on Duke "Recall Exhaust Guard" and shorted.) See my Cave, Battery------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)
The Ogre's Fiero Cave
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Patrick
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SEP 07, 04:33 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by theogre:
At the fail rate of New Parts you think this?
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Think what? I clearly stated that I didn't disagree that this "new" starter could possibly be bad.
Ogre, you yourself mention 101 reasons for replacing the battery cables. I stand by my earlier comment.
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I don't disagree... but I'd still suspect 38 year old battery cables (and/or their connections) over a one year old starter.
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[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-07-2022).]
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Fitz301
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SEP 07, 10:18 PM
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Before you go ripping the starter out, if you haven't already, did you ever consider checking the IGNition/CRANK fuse?
It could be something as simple as a blown fuse which is why I live by the FBF (fuse box first) rule before I disassemble anything else.
Or, it could be the fusible links built into the wires going to the starter, I had that problem on my 84.[This message has been edited by Fitz301 (edited 09-07-2022).]
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Fienix
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SEP 11, 02:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fitz301:
Before you go ripping the starter out, if you haven't already, did you ever consider checking the IGNition/CRANK fuse?
It could be something as simple as a blown fuse which is why I live by the FBF (fuse box first) rule before I disassemble anything else.
Or, it could be the fusible links built into the wires going to the starter, I had that problem on my 84.
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I did check the crank fuse and it is good. Went through the engine bay today and cleaned up all the grounds. Some of them were pretty crusty and I thought for sure that was gonna be the ticket, but still no start. I'll see if I can check the fusible links.
My battery cables are a little grody looking. The positive cable had a bit of exposed wire at the end near the battery post. I wrapped it with harness tape but I suppose damage could have already been done to it before I did that. Is it worth replacing the battery cables now? Or should I get the starter tested before replacing anything?
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Patrick
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SEP 11, 02:33 PM
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Have you used a multimeter at all anywhere... checking for voltage and/or continuity?
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Fienix
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SEP 11, 09:00 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
Have you used a multimeter at all anywhere... checking for voltage and/or continuity? |
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The only thing that I've checked was the battery (before I had it tested at AZ) and that the starter was getting 12V from the positive battery cable, which it was. What else can/should I check?
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Fitz301
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SEP 12, 01:40 PM
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Try checking the battery post on the solenoid, not the battery connection but remove the battery cable and make sure the post itself is tight and making a solid connection inside the solenoid.
I've had aftermarket starters where the solenoid battery post worked itself loose somehow, not allowing the full amperage of the battery to be delivered to the starter motor.
| quote | Originally posted by Fienix:
The only thing that I've checked was the battery (before I had it tested at AZ) and that the starter was getting 12V from the positive battery cable, which it was. What else can/should I check? |
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Patrick
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SEP 12, 05:18 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fienix:
What else can/should I check?
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I'm definitely no expert on this, but what you're looking for is unusually high resistance in the battery cables... whether that be due to damage within the cables and/or poor connections at the ends.
I suggest you disconnect both cables from the battery. Set your multimeter to measure resistance. To test the Positive cable, attach one multimeter lead to the post on the solenoid that the Positive cable is connected to, and attach the other lead to the end of the Positive cable that's been removed from the battery. Make note of the reading.
To test the Negative cable, attach one multimeter lead to somewhere on the engine block, and attach the other lead to the end of the Negative cable that's been removed from the battery. Make note of the reading.
Both of those readings should be very close to each other, and they should both show very limited resistance.
True, doing this doesn't tell you what the resistance might be with the cable connections onto the battery itself, but my experience is that side post battery connections aren't as troublesome as top post battery connections in regards to corrosion. I could be wrong!
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Fienix
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SEP 17, 02:36 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I'm definitely no expert on this, but what you're looking for is unusually high resistance in the battery cables... whether that be due to damage within the cables and/or poor connections at the ends.
I suggest you disconnect both cables from the battery. Set your multimeter to measure resistance. To test the Positive cable, attach one multimeter lead to the post on the solenoid that the Positive cable is connected to, and attach the other lead to the end of the Positive cable that's been removed from the battery. Make note of the reading.
To test the Negative cable, attach one multimeter lead to somewhere on the engine block, and attach the other lead to the end of the Negative cable that's been removed from the battery. Make note of the reading.
Both of those readings should be very close to each other, and they should both show very limited resistance.
True, doing this doesn't tell you what the resistance might be with the cable connections onto the battery itself, but my experience is that side post battery connections aren't as troublesome as top post battery connections in regards to corrosion. I could be wrong! |
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Thanks so much for the detailed info, Patrick. I will try this out when I have a chance.
| quote | Originally posted by Fitz301:
Try checking the battery post on the solenoid, not the battery connection but remove the battery cable and make sure the post itself is tight and making a solid connection inside the solenoid.
I've had aftermarket starters where the solenoid battery post worked itself loose somehow, not allowing the full amperage of the battery to be delivered to the starter motor.
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I'll take a closer look at the solenoid connections as well, thank you Fitz.
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Patrick
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FEB 06, 02:19 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fienix:
Thanks so much for the detailed info, Patrick. I will try this out when I have a chance.
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I know, I know, you've been busy... but it's been almost five months now! 
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