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| Completely new fuel injection system computer? (Page 4/8) |
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84fiero123
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DEC 23, 10:05 AM
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woodyhere
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DEC 23, 10:06 AM
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The distributor has to provide a clean signal and have no centrifugal advance or vacuum advance. I wouldn't use the original 2.8 distributor with the little sheet metal fingers under the cap. A replacement has the newer style pick-up and provides a clean signal. It is triggered like the V8 HEI ignitions. If you buy an aftermarket "performance" distributor it might be a challenge to get one made for computer control. Your upgraded stock distributor is more than up to the task. Your stock coil is more than up to the task. Remember that a coil can only put out as much current as being put in it. The module in the distributor limits the amperage going in. Usually around 5 or so amps. The factory ratio of windings gives a nice fat long duration spark. Going to a higher ratio performance coil raises the voltage to the plug but lowers the amperage. Voltage is the push in the circuit, amperage is the burn. The stock distributor and coil will probable never be a limiting factor on a normally aspirated motor (non-boost). If your ignition actually becomes a problem, I have a solution. Send me an email if you get to that point. Get it up and running first. I think you will be very pleased.
It's interesting that another fellow with a big V8 had problems with a carb. I have a 800 Edelbrock that I have tried everything to make work well. I put a wedge under the carb to make it sit level. This stopped the hot start issues. I am using a wide band O2 sensor to tune it. I drilled air bleeds, changed jets and metering rods and got a respectable fuel air ration on cruise and idle. Couldn't get an accurate or steady ration on acceleration. These cars really accelerate hard and throw the gas around in the bowl. I made a vent extensions when I realized the fuel was being thrown out the vents and dumped into the ventures. This helped a little but the af ratio was still way to fat. I dropped many secondary jet sizes but never got a consistent 13 to 1 af ratio under acceleration. The answer for me is to quite throwing fuel around in the bowl, eliminate the bowl. Get rid of the carb and go to the FAST 2.0 system. The target AF ratios can be set. The cruise can be even leaner that 14.7 to 1.
Woody------------------
woodys 427
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 23, 12:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by woodyhere:
The distributor has to provide a clean signal and have no centrifugal advance or vacuum advance. I wouldn't use the original 2.8 distributor with the little sheet metal fingers under the cap. A replacement has the newer style pick-up and provides a clean signal. It is triggered like the V8 HEI ignitions. If you buy an aftermarket "performance" distributor it might be a challenge to get one made for computer control. Your upgraded stock distributor is more than up to the task. Your stock coil is more than up to the task. Remember that a coil can only put out as much current as being put in it. The module in the distributor limits the amperage going in. Usually around 5 or so amps. The factory ratio of windings gives a nice fat long duration spark. Going to a higher ratio performance coil raises the voltage to the plug but lowers the amperage. Voltage is the push in the circuit, amperage is the burn. The stock distributor and coil will probable never be a limiting factor on a normally aspirated motor (non-boost). If your ignition actually becomes a problem, I have a solution. Send me an email if you get to that point. Get it up and running first. I think you will be very pleased.
Woody
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Woody, thank you SO much for this post. I gave FAST a quick call, but I'm under the impression that FAST is overwhelmed with customer calls. From what I understand, most people selling these kits are on back-order (unless you buy them off eBay or like from Amazon.com... people who bought them in bulk).
In any case, I suspect the tech guy didn't really know the full answer... he was basically telling me I should go with HEI since they don't have a distributor for us.
Now, if you don't mind me nudging you a bit more... you said I should be able to use my stock distributor?
I definitely have the newer one with almost no miles on it (see picture below). In the instructions, the EZ-FAST 2.0 says:
Cleaned up a bit for relevance:
"In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup. A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."
So to clarify, I do have the newer distributor with the newer style stators, and I also have an Accel SuperCoil (or whatever they called it back then). I have a couple of factory coils too... but that's what's on there now.
I guess the biggest thing is that it's saying it requires a clean reference signal. Is that something I can get from the factory style distributor? Do I need to modify the ICM?
Thank you so much for helping me with this.
The tech DID say that if the system is controlling the timing, then it will run in "Sequential" fuel injection mode, as apposed to batch mode.
EDIT: I've been doing a bit more research, and found some images on the MEGASQUIRT site. I downloaded them, and then made one that is representative of what we use (GM HEI-8 style ignition control module) and then labelled the outputs:
As you can see, we do get a timing INPUT from the computer. The BYPASS is simply a means to bypass the timing so that (when cold/start) there's no advance.
The output, specifically the "TACH" output, is the engine reference signal... I BELIEVE.
I also ran across this interesting comment that I read on the MegaSquirt site about the HEI distributor:
"The later 7 and 8 pin modules and corresponding distributors are designed for computer control and should be an easy swap onto earlier engines - not only are those modules intended for computer control, but their distributors are already locked-out so no modifications are required."
While that applies to the MegaSquirt specifically, it's basically telling us that these distributors are ALREADY "locked out." When I re-read what EZ-EFI says...
"In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup."
Now I'm assuming that our distributors have an "integrated pickup"... I know that we have a pickup coil: http://www.fierostore.com/P.../Detail.aspx?s=51042
So what am I missing? Is it as simple as me basically connecting the TACH output signal directly to the EZ-EFI's reference input? And then hooking the ECM's timing advance signal to the ignition control module's ECM input port? The bypass can simply be controlled by a temperature sensor... maybe the one that currently controlls the cold-start injector?... But... I may not even need to do that since the EFI system will compensate for temperature and A/F. So I could just ignore that completely...
Woody, anyone else... am I on the right track here?
Looks like maybe the only thing I'm missing is where in the instructions it says: "A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil."
But does it really need that? Is our stock system ALREADY "capacitive dicharge?"
EDIT: Just did some more reading, and apparently the GM ignitions are "Inductive Discharge"... not sure I understand the difference between Capacitive versus Inductive, but the question now is... does the EZ-EFI "really" actually "require" a capacitive discharge ignition box? And why?
EDIT: Did some more reading again, and it looks like the difference is in "who" or "what" supplies the power to the spark plug. Inductive uses the coil, where as it appears in the capacitive, it uses the capacitors in the module (I think). All in all, it simply talks about how "good" of a spark is being produced by the spark plugs. I don't really think it would make a difference to the EZ-EFI... maybe they only say that because they want to make sure there's no issue with producing a good spark?
| quote | Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Have I told you lately, "I really Hate you!" 
I miss the days of just throwing money at problems. I also hate the idea that you have that Olds 455 just sitting in your garage in Florida, god man throw that sucker under the hood of your Fiero, all your problems will be solved, well you computer related problems as that is a non computer controlled engine. Hell if you don't do something with that engine very soon I am going to drive the Burb down there and throw it into the back and drive back home.  hell if I can't shoehorn it into the Fiero it will definitely fit in the plow truck, but I would rather throw it into the Burb for towing.
Steve
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Heh, thanks Steve. To be honest, that engine might have been a bad purchase. I got the motor basically for $250 bucks. It was nasty... totally nasty... covered in oil, caked on. ~$7,000 later, it's as you see it. That's a lot to pay for a motor like that.
It certainly is a disgustingly awesome motor, but I don't necessarily have the room right now to buy a car to put it in. I want to finish up my Fiero and my VW Bus (Bus is basically done, Fiero is 60% finished). Once I get those cars running tip-top... then I'll look for a chassis to put that motor in.
I'm thinking a massive early to mid 70s 2-door land yacht.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-23-2013).]
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woodyhere
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DEC 23, 03:05 PM
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The stuff you are reading from FAST can be a little confusing. They are making things kind of general to cover people that lock out a conventional HEI as well as those with the already locked out computer controlled HEI. The guys at EFI supply are the people I am buying from. They have been helpful and nice to work with. They seem to know this system as well as other systems very well. They also have great pricing.
You have the right distributor. It is locked out and the initial and advance are computer controlled. The FAST ECM will control timing and advance just like you stock ECM does. You won't be using the stock ECM for engine control any more. You can even control when the cooling fan comes on and turns off. You can use the tack signal but the signal from the pick up coil is stronger. Don't over think this. just use the tack reference signal. You will set your timing by having the engine at TDC compression stroke, center the rotor on no. 1 and line up the star shaped points at their closest contact point. Tighten the hold down bolt. The FAST ecm will see this as a crank reference of TDC. From that point on you can do any timing changes with your hand held. The initial timing will be part of the set up with the hand held. You don't need any ignition box such as a multi-spark CDI. Your distributor already has a "box" in it. It's the module. Get the system on order. Put it on and if you have trouble just POST IT!
Woody
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woodys 427
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 23, 03:20 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by woodyhere:
The stuff you are reading from FAST can be a little confusing. They are making things kind of general to cover people that lock out a conventional HEI as well as those with the already locked out computer controlled HEI. The guys at EFI supply are the people I am buying from. They have been helpful and nice to work with. They seem to know this system as well as other systems very well. They also have great pricing.
You have the right distributor. It is locked out and the initial and advance are computer controlled. The FAST ECM will control timing and advance just like you stock ECM does. You won't be using the stock ECM for engine control any more. You can even control when the cooling fan comes on and turns off. You can use the tack signal but the signal from the pick up coil is stronger. Don't over think this. just use the tack reference signal. You will set your timing by having the engine at TDC compression stroke, center the rotor on no. 1 and line up the star shaped points at their closest contact point. Tighten the hold down bolt. The FAST ecm will see this as a crank reference of TDC. From that point on you can do any timing changes with your hand held. The initial timing will be part of the set up with the hand held. You don't need any ignition box such as a multi-spark CDI. Your distributor already has a "box" in it. It's the module. Get the system on order. Put it on and if you have trouble just POST IT!
Woody
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Thanks Woody!!! I really appreciate it... sounds like FAST just wants to cover their butt by not giving advice that goes outside the norm... but like you said, it sounds like I have what I need.
I'm pretty excited. I might even make a harness adaptor and tech article for people with the V6/60 so more people can use this kit properly without having to post tons of messages just to figure it out.
Thanks!!!
Todd
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fierosound
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DEC 23, 07:35 PM
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ericjon262
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DEC 23, 09:30 PM
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my suggestion, EBL flash. it'll control your ignition and fuel, and wires up just like a 7730. did I mention it's way cheaper than true standalone? and that the customer support doesn't leave you standing alone?
http://dynamicefi.com/EBL_P4_Flash.php------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html
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Doober
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DEC 23, 11:51 PM
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That's another thing, Bob is awesome with his customer support.
http://www.thirdgen.org/tec...6351-tuning-ebl.html
He posts there regularly, usually within a day or two of you posting a question (if it doesn't get lost in discussion). He's also very knowledgeable about the ins/outs of why something is happening, and EFI in general. While the EBL isn't 100% self-tuning, the fueling is very easy to nail down by just starting a VE learn and driving the vehicle to populate the specific cells (MAP sensor reading on one axis, RPM on the other), though a wideband is basically a necessity to get the fueling where you need, otherwise you're stuck with learns in low load/cruising cells (doesn't learn as well/quickly off a narrowband). Plus you can fine-tune stuff with it that you likely can't with some of the self-tuning systems.
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84fiero123
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DEC 24, 09:20 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Heh, thanks Steve. To be honest, that engine might have been a bad purchase. I got the motor basically for $250 bucks. It was nasty... totally nasty... covered in oil, caked on. ~$7,000 later, it's as you see it. That's a lot to pay for a motor like that.
It certainly is a disgustingly awesome motor, but I don't necessarily have the room right now to buy a car to put it in. I want to finish up my Fiero and my VW Bus (Bus is basically done, Fiero is 60% finished). Once I get those cars running tip-top... then I'll look for a chassis to put that motor in.
I'm thinking a massive early to mid 70s 2-door land yacht.
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You want a land yacht look at mid 60s Bonneville's, now that's a land yacht. it would be something powerful enough to move that baby right down the road quite nicely, if I remember right my 66, I think it was had a 421 in it that moved it right along fine but that baby would make it FLY.
Steve
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phonedawgz
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DEC 24, 09:38 AM
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The Fiero 2.8 lacks a knock sensor. Thus it is impossible for the ECM to "self tune" the ignition curve.
The Fiero 2.8 lacks a cam sensor. Thus it is impossible for the ECM to run in sequential mode, The 2.8 doesn't even know where the crank is other than it is at one of the three firing points.
The Fiero ICM is designed to operate in direct (advance) mode and not use computer advance during starting. Moving the distributor to TDC will affect starting.
| quote | | The tech DID say that if the system is controlling the timing, then it will run in "Sequential" fuel injection mode, as apposed to batch mode. |
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That statement makes no sense at all. They are saying that if the ECM controls the timing, something that all stock ECMs have done since the 80s, then the ECM will run in sequential mode, something that is impossible for any ECM to perform without knowing where the cam is.
The fact that until recently they were selling an ECM that lacked the very basic function of timing advance just a little while ago and pedaling it as a better solution than the stock ECM makes me question their credibility.
| quote | | So what am I missing? Is it as simple as me basically connecting the TACH output signal directly to the EZ-EFI's reference input? And then hooking the ECM's timing advance signal to the ignition control module's ECM input port? The bypass can simply be controlled by a temperature sensor... maybe the one that currently controlls the cold-start injector?... But... I may not even need to do that since the EFI system will compensate for temperature and A/F. So I could just ignore that completely... |
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The timing advance is taken control of by the ECM after the engine reaches 400 RPM. So immediately after start up the stock ECM controls the ignition advance. That isn't something you want delayed until the engine warms up.[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-25-2013).]
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