F23 vs HTOB 282 (Page 1/3)
thesameguy MAY 30, 12:28 AM
This happened:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/145157.html

Now I need a new gear box for my 3.4pr on an '88 cradle.

Going F23 I would be relying on someone's prefab mounts/brackets, which I think means WCF, so there's that. Ultimately I don't *want* to spend $1500 but as I haven't done sod all for a year it's not such a big deal. I can get an F23 locally pretty cheap.

There are no 282s anywhere in California near as I can tell. I don't have the energy to go try and junkyard one even if I could find one. Since it's gonna get delivered, it just makes sense to me to move to the HTOB version and take those incremental improvements and the better slave cylinder.

The cost variance here isn't insane... $1500 or so for F23 and $800 or so 282 (trans/new slave/new shift brackets). It's all fungible.

For those of you who've done this, is the improvement in shift quality with the F23 worth the sacrifice of shorter gear ratios? I'm really struggling with that equation, especially since the last thing a 3.4 needs is shorter gearing.

(I suppose there is also a hybrid F23 option... 2.2l bell with XFE gearing? Not sure I wanna tackle that - effort or time)
fieroguru MAY 30, 08:58 AM
I have done the 92-94 HTOB Getrag upgrade as well as reworked a F23 swap. Your path forward is much more direct with the 92-94 HTOB setup as most parts (mounts, axles, cables, and clutch) will interchange. You have to connect the HTOB, add a signal converter for the VSS (one is for sale in the mall) and get some FWD shift brackets from Rodney. The only caveat is the 92-94 versions came with the 3.61 as well as a 3.94 final drive, so you will want to make sure you are getting the right final drive.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...120111-2-091336.html

The F23 will require new mounts, shifter brackets, HTOB connector, VSS signal converter, a custom shift cable, and some work on the clutch/pressure plate fitment. It does shift like a hot knife through butter, but outside of that I am not a fan of the F23. It works great for many people, but it checks very few boxes of what I am looking for with a manual transmission.
thesameguy MAY 30, 01:05 PM
That's about where I am... The shift quality for the 282 is really bad, and my daily driver is a 1985 Saab 900 so I know some stuff about bad shift quality.... But I think the only F23 worth entertaining is a hybrid, and that's gonna get me close to $2k.

For the 282, I have an SGI 5E left over from another project, which I think does this job as well. Still out all the hardware either way.

I am leaning towards staying with a 282 mostly because it's a known quantity, and I don't have to rely on anyone to knock it out. WCF says they have stock on their F23 hardware but, uh, you know.

Am I correct the 282s with the correct gear ratio were behind 3.1 V6 cars? The four cylinder cars had the shorter gears? Presumably there is no way to tell from the outside... Labels etc. have been probably gone for decades.
fieroguru MAY 30, 01:14 PM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Am I correct the 282s with the correct gear ratio were behind 3.1 V6 cars? The four cylinder cars had the shorter gears? Presumably there is no way to tell from the outside... Labels etc. have been probably gone for decades.



Yes, you want a 3.1 V6 transmission from a car. The V6 in the vans and Q4s have the 3.94 ratio.

If the transmission is out, put it in 4th gear and count how many rotations of the input shaft for 1 full rotation of the differential. One will be close to 4, the other will be just less than 3.5.
thesameguy MAY 30, 03:53 PM
I'm probably gonna end up ordering from some car-part.com junkyard but I am holding out how that mantrans.net has one... Will probably find out Tuesday. If they do, that'll sway me strongly towards the 282 option... My big hesitation there is really just sourcing a 30 year old transmission that still works right. :/
ericjon262 MAY 30, 04:21 PM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
It works great for many people, but it checks very few boxes of what I am looking for with a manual transmission.



if you don't mind me asking, what "checks the boxes" for you?

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

fieroguru MAY 30, 05:45 PM

quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
if you don't mind me asking, what "checks the boxes" for you?



Strength/Durability - daily driver reliable
Effective Lauch Ratio
Low Cruise RPMs - I frequently drive 8-12 hrs with the cruise @ 85 - just stopping for gas
Aesthetics of the install
Doesn't make the car feel like an over-geared drag car
Overall fun to drive

For the 2 months I was able to swap back and forth between my LS4/F40 and a SBC/F23 Fiero. I found the F23 always 1 gear higher and leaving me looking for another gear or two. It is a strong and functional transmission, but not well suited for V8 swaps.
I was pretty happy with the LS4/F40 (3.55) combo, but the F40 with the 3.091 final drive is just AWESOME from an overall driving experience perspective. It definitely has spoiled me...
fieroguru MAY 30, 05:47 PM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

I'm probably gonna end up ordering from some car-part.com junkyard but I am holding out how that mantrans.net has one... Will probably find out Tuesday. If they do, that'll sway me strongly towards the 282 option... My big hesitation there is really just sourcing a 30 year old transmission that still works right. :/



Be careful with the rebuilders... they mix and match parts to make good transmissions. Several have purchased a rebuilt one and found that it has the 3.94 final drive swapped in. You will want to confirm it still has the 3.61 final drive.

ericjon262 MAY 30, 06:38 PM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Strength/Durability - daily driver reliable
Effective Lauch Ratio
Low Cruise RPMs - I frequently drive 8-12 hrs with the cruise @ 85 - just stopping for gas
Aesthetics of the install
Doesn't make the car feel like an over-geared drag car
Overall fun to drive

For the 2 months I was able to swap back and forth between my LS4/F40 and a SBC/F23 Fiero. I found the F23 always 1 gear higher and leaving me looking for another gear or two. It is a strong and functional transmission, but not well suited for V8 swaps.
I was pretty happy with the LS4/F40 (3.55) combo, but the F40 with the 3.091 final drive is just AWESOME from an overall driving experience perspective. It definitely has spoiled me...



I can understand that, so, most of your "problem" with the F23 is gearing? I like the idea of the 3.09:1 F40, maybe my next project will get one. I think with my V6, the 3.63 F23 should work fairly well, as it produces significantly less off idle torque as your LS4.

------------------
"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

cam-a-lot MAY 31, 06:51 AM
Has anyone done a full, proper write-up of the hybrid F23 swap (taking the 2 transmissions and step by step procedures of what to do)? I agree with Guru 100% that the 3.09 F40 would be the best possible manual transmission in a Fiero with a high powered engine, but both the cost and skill level needed to do this swap is going to make this a non starter for most people.

The only F40 Fieros I have driven had this horrible rattle when the clutch was not engaged.. hopefully this is not very common. I couldn't handle driving a car with that terrible sound for very long

As the Getrags are more and more rare (even the 92-94 HTOB versions are very hard to find), it would be great to have someone properly document an F23 swap, preferrably the hybrid setup including the gearing change. This would be an enormous help to many, since the Getrag 282 has reached the end of its' shelf life, and more and more people will be breaking these transmissions with no replacement in sight...

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 05-31-2021).]