Call the ball (Page 1/2)
oddballracing APR 27, 02:42 PM
TL-DR Help me decide if the car is worth saving.

Greetings. Long time listener, even longer time since posting! I am the original owner of a 1984 SE. I bought it when I was in the Army at Ft. Campbell, KY in October 1984. I drove the car to Oakland, CA and had it shipped to Honolulu when I moved there in 1987 (post-Army) and then shipped it back to Oakland and drove it home again to Cincinnati, Ohio. I knew absolutely nothing about cars then. I was low on oil one day mid-week and thought "I'll change the oil this weekend, let's just top it off with STP oil treatment." WELP The motor didn't make it to the weekend and seized. I had some shop (long since forgotten) perform some-sort of repairs but it never ran quite right after that. I drove it for almost 12yrs and parked it in my brother's back yard in 1996 where it sat for 26yrs until last weekend. It did not move on its own accord. I have seen ALL of Mr. Finger's restoration videos on YT. The plan at this point is to get it up on jack stands and power-wash it underneath to get the best assessment. ALL rubber is assumed shot before I even begin. The window seal rubber has been long gone and the door internals are all rusted (I barely got the door open to put it in neutral for the tow truck to move it).

1984 Pontiac Fiero SE, automatic, manual windows, A/C.
RWDPLZ APR 27, 02:57 PM
Start with foam cannon and a power washer, run an ozone generator in the interior for a few hours with the car parked outside, and check the rear frame rails for rust, that would probably determine if it's 'worth it', otherwise Ronald Finger's videos give you a good idea of the task ahead.

Rust:



https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...160323-2-121544.html
skywurz APR 27, 03:31 PM
I think "worth it" is relative and subjective. How much money are you willing to put into it and what is your current skillset? What is your end goal?
RWDPLZ is spot on with the check for rust and how much rust. People with massive amount of skill and determination have fixed and replaced whole sections of rusted out cars. I don't see that as "worth it" personally and would be where I'd start as well. But you will get into this more than it will be technically worth.
theogre APR 27, 07:40 PM
What skywurz is right in a nutshell. To expand...

You already know the engine has "issues" at best after that lockup. How did they fix it? Or was it replaced? If Replace w/ New, Rebuilt or Used engine?
Replace engine often isn't same as OE even if you buy a New engine from GM. Replace w/ Rebuilt or Used engine may had problems even before installed in your car.
Example: Many 84 engines where replace under Warranty or Recall jobs and GM dealers got whatever engine version that available @ GM. So often is an Upgrade w/ Roller cam setup etc and some parts won't work if you think is OE 84 engine.
Even 84 may not have same engine version depending on trim level... base vs SE vs Indy
See my Cave, Duke Quick Ref

Even if frame isn't rotted out... Many of things are bad to a total loss just sitting outside for decades.
Brakes, Coolant system, electrical parts...

Restoring brakes is costly... that alone can easily eat $700+ just in parts and carefully buy w/ many discount plans thru AZ and more.
Likely New rotors, rebuilt calipers, good pads, new hoses, new P-brake cables, Front wheel bearings and seals (New rotor don't come w/ them.) and more.

Auto trans may have problems too. Torque Converter has a clutch that electric and/or hydraulic problems.
AC is likely Dead. Restoring that is big job and often require to make new hoses meeting EPA rules. Many AC shops no longer service R12 systems and many don't touch 10-15 year old cars let alone very old cars.

HL doors open because motors etc are bad can "Nickle and Dime" you to no end. Some claim can fix/rebuild the Gen1 motors but many fail again and soon. Having parked w/ Door Open often let a lot of crap in to attack everything.

The Interior may look OK now but UV exposure can make seat fabric brittle and "shatter" first few days to weeks driving. UV and Ozone "eats" most plastic and rubber parts. If Seat and other foam parts gets exposed too then expect to fix/replace them for same reason.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

olejoedad APR 27, 08:59 PM
Unless the car has deep sentimental value, and your looking for a project, you may be money (and time) ahead to cut the cord and find a good, running car that someone is selling.
oddballracing APR 28, 08:21 AM
You are all raising very good points. If we assume miraculously there is no rust, but that everything else needs to be replaced: brakes, coolant and AC systems, transmission and engine, entire interior, headlight systems, all window seals, door seals, etc. What's a good ballpark $$$?
theogre APR 28, 11:30 AM
You can't guess w/o having way more data.... Examples:

You have no data what's wrong w/ engine/trans... Could be something "easy" "cheap" to fix cause your problem or need complete engine rebuild. Engine problems could be iffy wiring or sensor(s) or even ECM or other things...
But...
Often can't get new or rebuilt engines. Even good used engines are hard to get for 20+ year old cars.
Rebuilt by Jasper etc small engine typically $1500-2000 but most stopped carrying this engine. Likely More $ Now that to "supply chain" issues.
So if need to rebuild then have to do it to your engine and spend about same and wait for a engine shop to do that work.
Then wait for another shop to install.

Skip Doing any type of engine swap because has more issues/problems and take more down time. Even Fiero V6 doesn't easy fit 84 because never made to have V6. 85 and later is near PnP L4 & V6 more so w/ both have same trans type.

Many shops refuse to change engine even if you have the replacement because take to much time and space even if have people can to this. If they need to pull and send to engine shop then even less likely many will to the job.
Why?
For a start... Fiero like many FWD cars are very hard to move with the drive-train out.
Many threads here showing cradle dropping of engine replacement. Many of those have space so car can sit in one spot or move very likely for days to months... If you have to deal w/ HOA, City Code Enforcement, etc, will have to store in a garage to hind the car while working on it for many DIYers. Depending on area you have people reporting to HOA et al in Hours and may get fined to tow in hours to days. Just Parking a disable car on paved driveway for a day or more can be a problem.

Trans TC clutch problem is often 1 part easy to get but pain to fix in the car.

Brakes already told appox parts cost but that's DIY cost... Expect $1000 or more in Parts + Labor for a shop to do the work. Most "Coupon deals" etc don't apply when need a lot of parts and labor.
Again, most shops won't touch your car for AC work. Even if they replace most of it, something else weak fails soon after and often a part you can't get like Fiero Evaporator...
Coolant system may need a lot of thing replace or a few. Radiator may look ok but 20+ year old plastic tanks can fail w/o warning. Metal coolant pipes under floor can rust or be bent and very hard to find replacements if true and Hard to fix depending just where the damage is.

And that's w/o a paint job... Paint job on a car out side for decades have it's own problems because water and UV can get into the fiberglass etc under the paint causing big problems even tho they doesn't rust.

If you find a shop to fix all expect a Very big bill. Just Labor is high often $100-150 or more per hour and likely take days minimum because likely have to fix/replace nearly everything.
Even if you find a shop claim will restore the car... Many got burned by shops saying that. Worse some shops rip off parts of you car to sell to others. Some highlights in old threads.
skywurz APR 28, 03:18 PM
Oh heck I love wildly speculating and guessing
I will assume you are at the same skill level as me and already own the same number of tools as me.
We will assume your car has 0 rust and the gas tank was drained properly as well as coolant and those are mostly clean. All of your brake lines and trans lines are all rust free and fine.

Lets say you find a low mile engine at a wrecking yard that "ran when parked" I would guess $600
You probably should at least redo the gaskets top-end and make sure you have roller lifters. $600
So now you have an engine with a freshened up top end new gaskets $1200

Transaxle you would remove from the rear cradle to redo that whole assembly so you would drop that transaxle at a transmissions shop to get refreshed probably $1500

You are now at $2700 and the thing does not roll or stop

Because of the spectacular rust free environment you can rebuild the calipers yourself and get new brake lines, rotors and pads but a new MC, $600
Because of the spectacular rust free environment your bearings a are all fine and so are your CV joints.

New Poly and Ball joints all around plus engine and cradle $600 (The cheap ball joints not the good ones we are on a budget)

New Shocks and struts $350

New tires $400 (extra 100 if you dont have a mounter and balancer as I do)

New fuel pump and sender $180

Now we are up to around 5k and it rolls and stops and the engine can sit in the engine bay and now you need belts coolant spark plugs new injector and distrib. $600

$5600 and now maybe we can work on your headlights. $400 if you just need some relays and motors.

so now we are up to 6k and you have not even touched the paint or the interior.

Because of the spectacular foresight parking it your Radiator and Heater core are fine and don't have to be replaced ($400)

You have brittle interior that fabric flakes off and sticks to you when you drive it because its warm so lets do AC. Pump, Condenser, Dryer, Evap, $1600

So now we are at 8k because i know you had to replace that heater core and radiator.

You are lucky its a hard top your interior is probably much better off than if it was a moon roof.
We buy a nice carpet cover for the dash 100
we buy some MR mikes seat covers 600
We pull the carpet that is not worn just dirty and power wash it at the local $5 diy car wash
We toss in some new speakers and use the factory radio 200
Headliner fabric and spray 95

we are at 9k it drives, its not miserable to sit in has faded paint

Some sanding pads and rattle can $500 paint looks better

Oh i forgot dew wipes they suck and 84 doors are different in ways I dont recall ... ill call those 200 and move on

now ill just round up to 10k because most of this is based on data and parts information that is more than 6 months old and we have had lots of inflation.


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See my Fiero Proluge on my personal site: http://skywurz.com/node/114
See my GT Build http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/144556.html
See my Wife's 85SE Build http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/144704.html

Patrick APR 28, 03:25 PM

The sad fact is that there are much nicer Fieros sitting in wrecking yards.
skywurz APR 28, 03:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


The sad fact is that there are much nicer Fieros sitting in wrecking yards.



This is true. If he could get his hands on another 84 (because omg lots of random 84 only things) That was in better shape but salvage he could probably get his car back on the road for less.

I got lucky and was able to get a wrecked runner from a wrecking yard that was closing for basically a song and swapped the cradle into my wifes car.