LED Front Turn Signals, now cause issues (Page 1/2)
Blitz54 AUG 14, 11:53 PM
So yes, I'm aware LEDs use less power and whatnot. But here's where I'm at now.

The tail lights are all LED. Side markers are normal bulbs. I had an electronic flasher. Everything worked as it should.

Now, I replaced the front lights with amber LED. Now I have issues. With ignition on and lights off, everything flashes as it should at the same speed both sides. If I have the parking lights on, headlights or not, things get funky. The indicators on the dash are both dimly lit. The right one is brighter than the left. If I turn the left signal on, everything flashes, although the front left is maybe a touch dimmer of a flash than it should be. If I turn on the right, the rears will flash lightly, and the side marker flashes, but the front right signal doesn't flash at all.

Would this just be grounds at this point? I read a few forum posts and some people did have similar issues. Whether it be in the socket itself, or ground locations. Any suggestions on where to look first? Not sure exactly where the grounds are as the old pics didn't load.

Also, long day. The rear brakes on my lancer were seized. At least, the slide pins were. Fixed one side and put it together. Worked on the other side, and of course snapped a fricken slide pin bolt... not too happy but oh well I'll take the Fiero. Weeeeeell went to town, gassed up. Got back in my car to start it, and heard a slight "pop" and no crank. Now I have 9v on the gauge. Dad was in town so we boosted me and went to a friends. Turns out, the side post on the battery messed up somehow. But the top post still has full power. So we converted the terminal ends to a top post and went on my way. Pain in the ass. Battery is only a few months old. But I don't have the receipt, so not sure if I can return it at Canadian Tire. I KNOW they have the records on the computer, as they helped me out with my tires once. That was just to provide info for my insurance claim when someone blew a stop sign in the winter though. So they might not help me out if it's just for warranty.

Anyway, long day. Figured I'd ask here before bed, as I don't have the energy to look into this stuff tonight. Thanks all!
Mike in Sydney AUG 15, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blitz54:

So yes, I'm aware LEDs use less power and whatnot. But here's where I'm at now.

The tail lights are all LED. Side markers are normal bulbs. I had an electronic flasher. Everything worked as it should.

Now, I replaced the front lights with amber LED. Now I have issues. With ignition on and lights off, everything flashes as it should at the same speed both sides. If I have the parking lights on, headlights or not, things get funky. The indicators on the dash are both dimly lit. The right one is brighter than the left. If I turn the left signal on, everything flashes, although the front left is maybe a touch dimmer of a flash than it should be. If I turn on the right, the rears will flash lightly, and the side marker flashes, but the front right signal doesn't flash at all.

Would this just be grounds at this point? I read a few forum posts and some people did have similar issues. Whether it be in the socket itself, or ground locations. Any suggestions on where to look first? Not sure exactly where the grounds are as the old pics didn't load.

/QUOTE]

Did you have ballast resistors in the front turn signal circuits? I have switchback LEDs in my car (white running lights that turn yellow when turn signals are on) and I had the same symptoms. I installed a Narva 12V 5W load resistor (Part No. 90038BL) in each circuit and the problem went away.
OldGuyinaGT AUG 15, 01:21 AM
I have LEDs everywhere i my '88 GT except for the in-dash turn indicators (because they provide the return path when the side markers flash and so need bidirectional lamps). I've had LED turn signal/parking lamps for s couple years. Shortly after I changed them, I was getting symptoms similar to yours. In my case, the ground issue was in the front lamp sockets (the right failed, then, about 18 months later, the left). Now that both have been replaced, everything works as it should.

I found the problem by doing various tests with one front turn signal LED removed, then the other. Maybe you can find the culprit this way.
theogre AUG 15, 10:17 AM
In Fiero and Many Others, Front lamps make the side markers to work for most countries.
See cave, LED markers showing how they work.

LED that require "ballast resistors" Do Not Save Power. (Including "CANBUS error free" ones more problems.) Often the resistors eat More Power then OEM lamps and worse most are not mounted right, over heats and die to start a fire. Aluminum case resistors are only watt rated attach to a heat sink. W/o that the units are de-rated for only 1/4 to 1/2 of watt rating.
See cave, LED poison. Or dig thru Digikey etc for aluminum power resistor data sheets. Very few are over 1/3 of watt rating w/o a heat sink.

Do Not compare to EU etc requiring a separate side blinker between front wheel and door. This require different wiring to OE side marker and added side blinker unit. Proper install you cut turn wire to side marker, ground the bulb side, and use other side to new blinker unit w/ ground to that too. Not hard but you can bet many morons screw this up anyway when importing US/Canada vehicles.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

Mike in Sydney AUG 15, 07:32 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

LED that require "ballast resistors" Do Not Save Power. (Including "CANBUS error free" ones more problems.) Often the resistors eat More Power then OEM lamps and worse most are not mounted right, over heats and die to start a fire. Aluminum case resistors are only watt rated attach to a heat sink. W/o that the units are de-rated for only 1/4 to 1/2 of watt rating......


.....Do Not compare to EU etc requiring a separate side blinker between front wheel and door. This require different wiring to OE side marker and added side blinker unit. Proper install you cut turn wire to side marker, ground the bulb side, and use other side to new blinker unit w/ ground to that too. Not hard but you can bet many morons screw this up anyway when importing US/Canada vehicles.




Ogre, I respect your knowledge and the fact that you are willing to share it with everyone but your way of presenting your side of an argument leaves a lot to be desired. Not everyone is a "moron" and the changes that we have to perform to drive and enjoy our cars in a country other than the US and Canada are usually covered by governmental regulations that make the NHSTA's regulations look tame by comparison.

BEFORE I could use my Fiero as a daily driver in New South Wales, Australia, I had to spend serious bux to get my Fieros certified by a licensed engineer who checked everything from gaskets and brake pads (to make sure there was no asbestos) to light bulbs and seatbelts which I had to have changed to comply with Australian Design Rules (ADR's) because they didn't have the proper ADR tag on the belts. My certification included braking tests, noise limits, and checks on the wattage and throw on my headlights (down and to the right).

Because the ADR's mandate that daily drive cars have to have white running lights and yellow turn signals, my options were to rewire and replace the turn signals with units from a 1994 Mazda MX5 (Miata) or some other concoction of light fixtures. Since I have clear lenses (yes, yes, I know they aren't NHSTA listed) my engineer suggested that I use switchback LEDs with ballast resistors to comply. I installed the LEDs and ballasts which were screwed to the frame of the car. The joints were soldered, and heat shrink tape was used to weatherproof the connections. The work was signed off and I'm driving the car. Does it use more power? Yeah, it does. 10 watts worth. Do all my other lights work including the side marker lights? Yep, they do. Do I get the annoying dim phantom blink of the instrument cluster indicators? Nope.

The point I'm making is that sometimes other options have to be found to get around the problem of maintaining a 34-39 year old car for which parts are getting scarce. Sharing solutions on what works and what doesn't is what this site is about.
theogre AUG 16, 01:47 AM

quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:
Ogre, I respect your knowledge and the fact that you are willing to share it with everyone but your way of presenting your side of an argument leaves a lot to be desired. Not everyone is a "moron" and the changes that we have to perform to drive and enjoy our cars in a country other than the US and Canada are usually covered by governmental regulations that make the NHSTA's regulations look tame by comparison.

BEFORE I could use my Fiero as a daily driver in New South Wales, Australia, I had to spend serious bux to get my Fieros certified by a licensed engineer who checked everything from gaskets and brake pads (to make sure there was no asbestos) to light bulbs and seatbelts which I had to have changed to comply with Australian Design Rules (ADR's) because they didn't have the proper ADR tag on the belts. My certification included braking tests, noise limits, and checks on the wattage and throw on my headlights (down and to the right).

Because the ADR's mandate that daily drive cars have to have white running lights and yellow turn signals, my options were to rewire and replace the turn signals with units from a 1994 Mazda MX5 (Miata) or some other concoction of light fixtures. Since I have clear lenses (yes, yes, I know they aren't NHSTA listed) my engineer suggested that I use switchback LEDs with ballast resistors to comply. I installed the LEDs and ballasts which were screwed to the frame of the car. The joints were soldered, and heat shrink tape was used to weatherproof the connections. The work was signed off and I'm driving the car. Does it use more power? Yeah, it does. 10 watts worth. Do all my other lights work including the side marker lights? Yep, they do. Do I get the annoying dim phantom blink of the instrument cluster indicators? Nope.

And your post means little for cars in US and Canada. I know about ADR MOT and others requiring more mods for import cars. Worse if tried to ship a Fiero etc that meets ADR etc back to US would have problems getting them street legal in many places because of the mods.

Moron examples:
Typical Ballast resistor sold to most here is 6Ω rated 50w at 14v when car running pulls 2.3a or 33 watts. That's 1 resistor and often have several. Most install them "floating in air," near or on plastic parts, or worse and gets Very Hot and resistor burns out if their lucky.
That's ignoring "CANBUS" LED sold to people without a clue causes problems too. The ballast resistors are in them that often cook off and hope they don't damages the socket and fixture. {yt big clive canbus led for just 1 example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkPGqM0Sl64 }
Many that import US cars to EU have many problems because diy and shops have hacked up the wiring to mod the lights and now just trying to fix a light that won't work months to years later. I help fix many import cars with owners that Failed MOT and others.


quote
The point I'm making is that sometimes other options have to be found to get around the problem of maintaining a 34-39 year old car for which parts are getting scarce. Sharing solutions on what works and what doesn't is what this site is about.

that doesn't apply to this topic in any case. Standard Bulbs for Fiero isn't going away any time soon Because Current Models use same bulbs like 2057 1157 2357 194 and others. Other ways to fix OE fixtures or sockets but isn't what is happening here for the most part. Only Likely now because old sockets often get pissed when you remove a bulb...

He's following the "newest" Fad to install LED... Fad so bad now that Even Osram(Sylvania in US) sells LED and use "Off Road" Label knowing most will use them on street cars anyway to sell at most auto part stores and others worldwide.

Because Installing LEDs in exterior light in any vehicle including current models are Illegal in many places and not just in the US. You might find LED Headlights have problems to replace Halogen Lamps too. Even when are certified in EU NHTSA etc to replace H6054 and related. Like UK recent MOT rules make LED and other "upgrades" very easy to Fail Because of Past Fad to install HID in Halogen HL Shells.
Mickey_Moose AUG 16, 02:22 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Because Installing LEDs in exterior light in any vehicle including current models are Illegal in many places and not just in the US.



I would say this part is not entirely true as many current models of vehicles use external LED lighting.

In fact FCA/Stellantis software has a provision included that can be changed simply if the vehicle is equipped with LED lights or not, depending on what is installed on the assembly line. Never mind a provision for EU lighting.
theogre AUG 17, 07:12 PM

quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
I would say this part is not entirely true as many current models of vehicles use external LED lighting.

In fact FCA/Stellantis software has a provision included that can be changed simply if the vehicle is equipped with LED lights or not, depending on what is installed on the assembly line. Never mind a provision for EU lighting.


All Factory Installed Light Fixtures including those with part or all LED are "approved" by USDOT/NHTSA because they are tested to meet FMVSS 108 and related Govrmnt agencies rules when are for Export. Many in that group use a combination of Standard and LED for many reasons. Example: Many current models have Halogen HL bulbs but LED DLR, Turn, Park and other sections in One HL assembly. Others have a mix of LED and normal bulbs for Taillights.

Installing any aftermarket LED or HID "upgrades" in fixture made to run Halogen or Standard Tungsten bulbs is Illegal in many places not just in the US. Again one example w/ UK MOT will Instant Fail the Inspection anyone w/ HID and Very Likely LED Headlight "upgrades." I'm told UK Cops can force you to go MOT Inspection at anytime and ticket w/ fines too for crap "upgrades" and other problems to get people thinking will remove or install after just to pass MOT.

I use UK MOT because anyone can find past and current rules that changed a couple of years ago and is in English.
Many claim the US FMVSS "only applies to new cars...." They ignore many States Laws/Rules are Based on that. PA light rules and likely others are near Verbatim and just change parts to fix sections to say PA Code page etc vs fed pages.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-24-2022).]

Blitz54 AUG 23, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the input all. Problem is mostly fixed now.

I replaced the front bulb sockets. Noticeably better connection, but didn't fix the problem. I cleaned the grounds, no fix. So I took off the side markers, to check out that connection.

Upon removing the bulb in the side marker, everything started working. The dash lights were no longer dimly lit when off, and the blinking was the proper speed. Put in a new halogen bulb, and it stopped working again. Put in a white LED bulb, and it works.

I have a general idea on electrical wiring, but this confused the hell outta me. At least it's working now.

Also, my shift light suddenly started working about a week ago. I had no idea mine was programmed for it. Lasted maybe 4 days then it stopped working again. I don't really need it, but knowing that it's SUPPOSED to be working makes me want to fix it now
theogre AUG 23, 10:44 PM
No surprise that LED fronts doesn't work w/ standard bulb is side markers...


quote
Originally posted by Blitz54:
Put in a white LED bulb, and it works.

Often this is Not true because how the side marker are wired to blink when parking lights are on and off.
See my Cave, LED Marker Light
Only Some LED have built in diode that doesn't care how they get power.
Even then front LED often doesn't work right w/ LED markers.

If LED say anything about "CANBUS" then likely will fail because of built in "ballast" resistors and heat generated by them.
Example: Smokin' hot CANbus LED lamps. (230C in open air.) on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkPGqM0Sl64
If CANBUS LED replace 194 bulb in marker shells can wreck the shells same or worse then normal bulbs. You never want Halogen 194 there for same reason.