Anyone use a Camaro 3.8 pressure plate for a 3800/F23 swap? (Page 1/1)
Cabernut NOV 17, 11:36 PM
First a bit of background info on my project: 3800 Series II N/A mated to an F23. Basically I'm planning on using this to get my feet wet and will use what I learn on a full L67 rebuild/F23 swap on a newer car later on. So for now, I only need something good enough and thrifty as possible. Saving money for the good stuff Once I know what I'm doing, I'll feel more comfortable spending $500 on a clutch.

So recently when I bought a 3.8L Camaro flywheel from a junkyard, it came with the Camaro pressure plate and clutch attached still. Not going to complain, extra parts are good, I'm just happy to get the flywheel.
Last week I got a great deal on a NEW clutch kit(2.8L w/ 4spd) for only $40-ish. As long as it will hold up to an n/a 3800 (reasonably well?) I'm fine for that price. I spent more on McDonalds for the family, so why not?
So now that I've gone and done that, I'm comparing the 2.8PP with the Camaro PP. The Camaro PP seems much more strong and well made. It's not that old either, mfr date was in 2013.



Could I use the Camaro pressure plate instead? Seems much more strong and would hold up to a better clutch disk later on. I noticed the clutch plate is slightly larger than the clutch disk. Would that be an issue?
Here is the new clutch disk with both so you can see how they compare:
2.8PP


3.8PP


After installing both on the flywheel, which is still uncut at the original 1.1" (as measured from the crank mounting point), I took measurements to see how everything would pan out before getting cut down to 0.84".
Here is what I found(using Fieroguru's 1, 2, 3 measurement method and F23 HTOB measurements):
Option 1(Camaro 3.8 PP 1.1" FW)
Option 2(2.8/4sp PP 1.1" FW)
Option 3(Camaro 3.8 PP 0.84" FW)
Option 4(2.8/4sp PP 0.84" FW)

Option # 1, 2, 3, 4,
1st: 2.598, 2.452, 2.338, 2.192
2nd: 1.9, 1.9, 1.9, 1.9
3rd: 2.776, 2.776, 2.776, 2.776

HTOB ROM 0.876, 0.876, 0.876, 0.876
2/3 point 0.584, 0.584, 0.584, 0.584
1/3 point 0.292, 0.292, 0.292, 0.292
release % 80%, 63%, 50%, 33%
wear % 20%, 37%, 50%, 67%



So looking at these numbers, option 2 and 3 seem viable without needing an HTOB spacer(I don't have one atm)
Here's the conundrum: If I use the el cheapo 2.8 PP that I have, I shouldn't cut down the FW(save money on that, no need to rebalance either), leave it stock.
If I use the Camaro PP, I will need to cut the flywheel down to 0.84", but I'll have a stronger PP...

What I can't test at the moment is pressure plate clearance inside the F23 once fully installed to the 3800.(I have a 4T65E in the way that needs to stay there for now)
Raydar NOV 19, 07:43 PM
Interesting.

First... To answer your question, If the pressure plate overhangs the edge of the disk by a bit, I don't see it as being a problem. Of course, a larger disk would be better.

To tell the truth, I was hoping that the Camaro clutch disk could be used as well. But apparently, it's 26 splines, while the F23 is only 14.
Where I'm going with this, is that with the "stock" (2.8 / 3.4) flywheel height of .84", it might provide the option for a larger clutch that also didn't require the TOB spacer, as you speculated.
But... The HD Ram disk, is either 9 3/4 or 9 5/8, depending upon who you want to believe - Ram, or the Fiero Store. (I believe I measured 9 11/16, when I installed mine.) It may work better with the Camaro pressure plate, just for being larger than the stock Fiero disk.
The one remaining question (same as with your scenarios) is whether it will all fit in the F23 bell housing.


You mentioned the cutdown to .84", and the rebalance.
I kind of always believed that the rebalance was done because the two engines are actually balanced differently - not because the flywheel was machined down. But I could be wrong on that point.
Still worth investigating. (I hope someone who knows, will jump in and correct me if I'm mistaken.)

But yeah... I'm looking for something for my LQ1 / F23 swap, and this looks promising.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-19-2022).]

cam-a-lot NOV 20, 05:56 AM
Seems like nobody realizes that these parts are made to Metric dimensions...in Metric vehicles... but you stubborn Yanks will resist forever and convert back to archaic, illogical imperial sizes... What the heck is a 9 11/16 anyway??

All joking aside, did you look into Spec and what they offer specifically for the F23/3800 combo? I understand you want to do this "on the cheap" but your time has value. If you have to drop the cradle in a few months again, the time and energy spent doing this will be very frustrating. Completely up to you, but enough people have already done this swap that what "works" has been clearly explained many times. Why reinvent the wheel or experiment to maybe save a couple of hundred bucks? Even when you buy and use the best available parts, like I just did, things can go wrong. My new F23 and SPEC stage 3 clutch started rattling after 1000 km, and the frigging cradle had to be dropped, tranny pulled. Don't know yet if the clutch failed or the tranny failed, but it really sucks.

I think that experimenting with a new PP/clutch/flywheel combo just increases the chance that you will have the same shitty situation that I am going through...

Good luck with the swap!
Raydar NOV 20, 10:06 PM
Seems like I keep hearing the words "Spec" and "problems" together in the same sentence all too frequently. Of course, it could just be my perception, but that's me. Whatever.
I certainly don't see anything wrong with using "factory" parts when possible. Especially if it will eliminate a spacer. I mentioned the Ram disk, because I like how it feels. And it's proven to be plenty sturdy coupled to my 4.9.
I didn't ever imagine that the Camarobird pressure plate would bolt up to a Fiero flywheel. I was actually thinking about going to a local clutch builder, and seeing if he could source a pressure plate similar to the Ram, only with ~1/4" "higher" fingers. This one almost seems made to order. If I run with it, I'll let you know how it works.

Edit - Even the manufacturer uses Imperial measurements.
Good enough for me. Feel free to convert to mm measurements as you see fit. (Good luck with your project. Hope your rattle is not "terminal".)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-21-2022).]

Raydar NOV 22, 06:38 PM
Okay... I've been gearing up to start putting stuff together.
I've already got the Ram clutch disk. 9 11/16. Or 246.0625 mm, if you happen to be cam-a-lot.
I've got a 3.8 Camaro pressure plate on order. Should be here in a couple of days. Probably much sooner than I'll actually be ready for it, but that's okay.

Once I get some things screwed together, I'll make some measurements, and pass them along.
BTW... for those who think I'm screwing up, and will only have to take things apart again, I know someone else who is doing an F23. Blew his TOB apart.
Bought a new TOB. Added the spacer. And then modded the stroke on his master cylinder, to eliminate so much fluid being pumped to the TOB. Still blew it apart. Stuff happens. If I have to drop the cradle again, at least I will have done it with conviction.
Cabernut NOV 23, 08:14 PM
I was thinking of going with the $PEC option(of which there are a few), maybe I will when I do this again. And I will do it again. However going with their aluminum flywheel and clutch kit together is super easy but is nearing $1k already. I also just like having a project to work on in my garage. In fact, I need a project. I'm sure many can relate.

The only two downsides I can think of to using the 3.8 Camaro fw at it's stock 1.1" thickness is that there is extra rotating mass and the PP sits deeper into the bellhousing.

I may just have to set aside a day or two to get hands-on and try it. Best way to learn I suppose? That's what I'm after as well. Getting to know how things work, or exactly why they don't.
cam-a-lot NOV 26, 05:33 AM
Pulled my SPEC clutch and PP off the flyhweel- nothing wrong with them. So my issue is inside the F23 trans itself. Local trans shop will pull it apart and let me know what they find out.

Keep us posted on the Camaro parts. For sure it is great to have an option if it works

My car has the final drive swapped from a 2009 Cobalt and it is much better than the original gearing from the 2002 F23 from the Cavalier. Still, I wish there was a way to make first and second gear taller...First gear still doesn't "last" long enough for my liking with the 3800 SC combo.

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 11-26-2022).]

Raydar NOV 26, 09:31 PM

quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

First gear still doesn't "last" long enough for my liking with the 3800 SC combo.




I can believe it. I've got a NV-T550 on my 4.9. Blows through 1st gear like... immediately. Still much more fun to drive than the 4T60E.

I got my 3.8 pressure plate yesterday. It looks nearly identical to the Ram pressure plate, except the friction surface of the steel ring is wider. That much was expected.
I'll have to bolt the assemblies to my flywheel, and compare them. All I have to do is find it. I had it before we moved.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-26-2022).]

Raydar NOV 28, 02:06 PM
Okay... an update.
I bolted both pressure plates and my Ram disk to the flywheel. I found no more than 1/16" of difference between the two. So much for that.

I messaged Tech Support at Ram, and asked if they knew of a "taller" setup, with the same diameter / bolt circle.
Their response was, essentially, "We dunno." Lovely.

But I'm not giving up on this. At least not yet.