New Fuel (Page 1/2)
Rhodesia1977 APR 10, 05:19 PM
I heard that soon the fuel will have higher ethanol in it around the country. Will this have any negative effects on the Fiero, specifically, the GT's? If so, are there any additives that can be used to help offset the higher ethanol level? Thank you for any input!
theogre APR 10, 06:55 PM
Already have E15 and/or E85 in some areas and both are for Flex Fuel Vehicles. Not for anything else.

E10 and more accurate Station Pumps labels as "Up To 10% Ethanol" is for everything else.
Because Actual % of Ethanol can and often will change almost every time the Stations gets next Gas Delivery.

Some places you see "RV" or Marine Gas w/o Ethanol. Most of that is Dyed and not allowed in Street Vehicles because of Taxes involved like doesn't have "Road" Taxes.

use search for more.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

sanderson231 APR 11, 01:52 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:
E10 and more accurate Station Pumps labels as "Up To 10% Ethanol" is for everything else.
Because Actual % of Ethanol can and often will change almost every time the Stations gets next Gas Delivery.



The reality is that refineries make what is called an RBOB blend (reformulated base octane blend). These can be bought and sold on the wholesale market. Check NASDAQ for prices. The octane of the RBOB is such that adding 10% ethanol will result in the finished octane meeting what is advertised on the pump. Adding less than 10% will result in the the gasoline being off spec on octane.

RBOB is pipelined to a terminal. E10 cannot be pipelined due to water separtion concerns in tankage. Ethanol is added to the RBOB when a tanker truck is loaded to deliver gasoline to a filling station An additive package for that particulr brand of gasoline is added when the truck is loaded.

Alternatively the refinery can produce a blend without ethanol that meets the pump octane spec. This is generally more costly than making E10 so in almost all cases the "up to 10% ethanol" pump has 10% ethanol in it.

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formerly known as sanderson
1984 Quad 4
1886 SE 2.8L
1988 4.9L Cadillac
1988 3800 Supercharged

RichLo1 APR 11, 02:47 PM
To answer the OP question, E10 vs E15 will only negatively effect vehicles that get stored for more than 6 months without burning through a tank or two and adding fresh fuel.

Ethanol absorbs moisture and breaks down quicker so before storing a car for winter run the tank down below 1/4 tank and put in fresh non-ethanol premium. If a car will sit for longer than 6-months run non-ethanol gas through 3 or 4 tanks to get rid of all of the ethanol and add some seafoam to the last tank. I have had non-ethanol farm gas with seafoam last 3 years before it started to make things run rougher than normal.
Old Lar APR 12, 09:38 AM
I have been running non ethanol gas in my Fiero for the past couple of years as the car sits parked far too much. I put some Sea Foam in the tank this spring.
Larryinkc APR 12, 11:47 AM
I run non ethanol fuel in all my vehicles, they are all forced induction. The cost is about equal, better gas mileage without the alcohol.

Alcohol belongs in a bottle, glass or can, I heard too many "gasoline and alcohol don't mix" ads in my younger years.
theogre APR 12, 12:27 PM

quote
Originally posted by sanderson231:
The reality is that refineries make what is called an RBOB blend (reformulated base octane blend). These can be bought and sold on the wholesale market. Check NASDAQ for prices. The octane of the RBOB is such that adding 10% ethanol will result in the finished octane meeting what is advertised on the pump. Adding less than 10% will result in the the gasoline being off spec on octane.

RBOB is pipelined to a terminal. E10 cannot be pipelined due to water separtion concerns in tankage. Ethanol is added to the RBOB when a tanker truck is loaded to deliver gasoline to a filling station An additive package for that particulr brand of gasoline is added when the truck is loaded.

Alternatively the refinery can produce a blend without ethanol that meets the pump octane spec. This is generally more costly than making E10 so in almost all cases the "up to 10% ethanol" pump has 10% ethanol in it.

RBOB does not apply to the Topic.
Most believe E15 is replacing E10 and not true. If Fact You can't get E15 or E85 in many states now and a continue this likely forever. Even in Delaware can't get it expect maybe 1 State Run E85 Pump not available to the Public. Because can't ship enough Ethanol to the big Refinery/Distributor near Delaware City. That distributor service Gas Stations in SE PA, S NJ, DE, E MD, and some of VA. The only thing different between Brands is maybe the Additives for Cleaning your engine.

Some believe will emanate 87 octane... Was a push to use EU octane that just use RON only not RON+MON/2. So 87 now become ~91 RON only rating. All others go up too because of math change.

Reformulated gas has been around the industry for 20+ years.
EPA Reduce them from 21+ boutique fuels to ~ 9 because often some areas "ran out" of X formula for a state or region that could be 1 city and areas near it.

Exx is often Not mix by Refiner but 1 or more Regional Distributor(s). Ethanol use by them is Shipped by Train in many places.
Can find many RR Loops now near Refiners and Distributors on Google Maps that empties Ethanol RR Tanks to local storage or pump direct to trucks for "last mile" delivery.

As to actual Mix for "up to 10% ethanol" means 10%. No. Depending on many things E% can and does change. Even "Winter" and "Summer" gas can change E% for a given area. In Mid Atlantic states they switch gas for "season" in ~ October/November and ~ May/April. Is Part of Why Prices go up/down at that time every year because "Winter" formulas are cheaper to make. Some Station Managers can tell you actual E% at any week/month (even that day if does a lot of sales like WaWa and other big stores.) because they see the "Bill" and other "Paper" from Distributor.

This has been covered here many times now. Try search in T/ot and General and their archives.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-12-2023).]

sanderson231 APR 12, 07:01 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:


As to actual Mix for "up to 10% ethanol" means 10%. No. Depending on many things E% can and does change. Even "Winter" and "Summer" gas can change E% for a given area. In Mid Atlantic states they switch gas for "season" in ~ October/November and ~ May/April. Is Part of Why Prices go up/down at that time every year because "Winter" formulas are cheaper to make. Some Station Managers can tell you actual E% at any week/month (even that day if does a lot of sales like WaWa and other big stores.) because they see the "Bill" and other "Paper" from Distributor.

This has been covered here many times now. Try search in T/ot and General and their archives.




I have an engineering degree and spent 41 years in the oil refining business. I continue to consult in the refining business. I have friends still in the business.

Refineries produce BOB blends; RBOB is one. When you add 10% ethanol to RBOB you make reformated gasoline (RFG) which is required in areas where ambient air quality does not yet meet EPA standards. CBOB is a blend where is you add 10% ethanol you make conventional gasoline. There is also a CARBOB which is a special formulation for California emission standards. The common denominator is that all the BOB blends are sub-octane. An RBOB is about 84.6 octane. 10% ethanol has to be added to make the 87 octane spec advertised at the pump. Ther e are also premium BOB blends.

Ethanol is added at the terminal where tank trucks are loaded to go to filling stations. The refiner has to certify that the BOB blend provided to the terminal will meet the pump octane when 10% ethanol is added to it. The terminal operator has to guarantee and keep records to show that 10% ethanol was added to the BOB to make the finished gasoline. It would be illegal for the terminal operator to add less than 10% ethanol and sell it as 87 octane finished gasoline.

It would be legal for a refinery to produce a blend that only needed 5% ethanol to make the finished gasoline spec. Then the terminal operator would legally only have to add 5% ethanol. As a practicle matter this nevers happens. There are great incentives for refiners to produce universally tradable BOBs.

In the mountains pump octane can be lower than 87. I recently bought some 86. It would be possible to take a BOB intended for 87 and add less than 10% ethnanol to it to make 86 octrane. However economics and government regulation on renewable fuels (RIN credits) make this unlikely.

Winter/Summer gasoline has nothing to do with the amount of ethanol or octane. It is all about vapor pressure and other volatility specs. In cold climates high vapor pressure gasoline is required the winter to get engines to start. On the other hand too high a vapor pressure increases evaporative emissions and can lead to vapor lock. There is always and ecomonic incentive to increase vapor pressure because the primary means of increasing vapor pressuur is by adding more cheap butane to the gasoline. The governament regulates max vapor pressure but refiners nearly always blend to the vapor pressure limit.

I just checked with two former colleagues and neither of them also know of anyone selling ethanol containing gasoline that does not contain 10% ethanol.

Sorry Theogre, if this has all been covered in the past but what I have said above is the current reality.


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formerly known as sanderson
1984 Quad 4
1886 SE 2.8L
1988 4.9L Cadillac
1988 3800 Supercharged

Rhodesia1977 APR 15, 08:28 PM
That makes sense! Thanks!
La fiera APR 15, 09:33 PM


"VP Racing M2 Upper Lube Performance Additive is designed to protect the investment in your methanol or ethanol powered engine and will more than pay off at rebuild time. This lubricant will protect valves and valve guides, aluminum fuel system parts, and cylinder walls—and it's rated for use with superchargers! VP Racing M2 Upper Lube Performance Additive is offered in scented or unscented formulas, order the M2 lube suited to your needs."

See if you can get this product in your country. I use e85 all year round and the ethanol stays in the tank for months in the winter and All I add id a teaspoon of this product to a gallon of fuel mix it good and then put it in the tank. Then run the engine or run the fuel pump long enough to make sure the additive has reached the entire fuel system. I've been using it for years and never had a problem.