Optimal Suspension for Comfort & Handling (Page 1/4)
82-T/A [At Work] FEB 05, 08:58 AM
Hey guys, I am trying to find the thread where I'd asked a somewhat similar question, but I can't seem to find it. It was a post within someone else's post that I think I asked it. So I'll ask a bigger version here. For my daughter's car... a 1985 Fiero 2m4 SE 5-Speed. I want her to have a car that handles well, but also isn't too "jarring" for the road.


QUESTION 1:
Back in the late 90s, when my car's (87 Fiero SE / V6) suspension was still decent, the ride was not great. I had the Y99 / Rally Suspension, and I had KYBs. The springs sucked... just to be honest, and the KYB shocks and struts were hugely aggressive. You'd feel every single pothole right up your spine... and as a fit 18-20 something, it didn't really bother me, but it wasn't great for the handling or the experience (which was still awesome, mind you). I'm trying to make her car (again, the 85 SE 2m4 5-Speed) more like a German-car "feeling" of the early 2000s (Jetta / Passat). What this is, basically... is STIFF springs, with progressive shocks. So THIS is what I'd like to do to my daughter's car:

- WS6 Springs
- Monroe Shocks

Do you see any problem with this? And for that matter, what are your thoughts on the Monroe struts at the Fiero Store. Are they decent? I'm looking for shocks that have some give, but when pushed tighten up (e.g. progressive). Also, with respect to the WS6 springs. I was able to source a set of really good WS6 springs from the rear of a low-mileage 87 GT that had been wrecked in the front like a decade ago. The springs are ridiculously clean, NMY-coded, and have 60k miles on them. Problem is, I only found the rear springs. I'm still looking for a set of front springs, but the rear springs will do for now since we're on that. Anyone know where I can get a set of front low-mileage WS6 springs?


QUESTION 2:
Another thing I want to do is make sure she doesn't feel every vibration on the car. But... I also know that replacing bushings is sooo much easier when you're replacing them with polyurethane. Someone told me there's a "perfect" combination of using polyurethane and rubber bushings on the car to maximize handling, but not too badly and negatively effect interior vibration. Here's what I'm thinking...
- Cradle Bushings : Polyurethane
- Rear Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Lower Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane
- End-links : Zero-Lash


Did I get this right? Or is there some other combination (poly down low, rubber up top)?


Thank you!!!
1985 Fiero GT FEB 05, 11:47 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Hey guys, I am trying to find the thread where I'd asked a somewhat similar question, but I can't seem to find it. It was a post within someone else's post that I think I asked it. So I'll ask a bigger version here. For my daughter's car... a 1985 Fiero 2m4 SE 5-Speed. I want her to have a car that handles well, but also isn't too "jarring" for the road.


QUESTION 1:
Back in the late 90s, when my car's (87 Fiero SE / V6) suspension was still decent, the ride was not great. I had the Y99 / Rally Suspension, and I had KYBs. The springs sucked... just to be honest, and the KYB shocks and struts were hugely aggressive. You'd feel every single pothole right up your spine... and as a fit 18-20 something, it didn't really bother me, but it wasn't great for the handling or the experience (which was still awesome, mind you). I'm trying to make her car (again, the 85 SE 2m4 5-Speed) more like a German-car "feeling" of the early 2000s (Jetta / Passat). What this is, basically... is STIFF springs, with progressive shocks. So THIS is what I'd like to do to my daughter's car:

- WS6 Springs
- Monroe Shocks

Do you see any problem with this? And for that matter, what are your thoughts on the Monroe struts at the Fiero Store. Are they decent? I'm looking for shocks that have some give, but when pushed tighten up (e.g. progressive). Also, with respect to the WS6 springs. I was able to source a set of really good WS6 springs from the rear of a low-mileage 87 GT that had been wrecked in the front like a decade ago. The springs are ridiculously clean, NMY-coded, and have 60k miles on them. Problem is, I only found the rear springs. I'm still looking for a set of front springs, but the rear springs will do for now since we're on that. Anyone know where I can get a set of front low-mileage WS6 springs?


QUESTION 2:
Another thing I want to do is make sure she doesn't feel every vibration on the car. But... I also know that replacing bushings is sooo much easier when you're replacing them with polyurethane. Someone told me there's a "perfect" combination of using polyurethane and rubber bushings on the car to maximize handling, but not too badly and negatively effect interior vibration. Here's what I'm thinking...
- Cradle Bushings : Polyurethane
- Rear Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Lower Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane
- End-links : Zero-Lash


Did I get this right? Or is there some other combination (poly down low, rubber up top)?


Thank you!!!



You might want to check The code list on your daughter's car, I compared an 84se to my 85gt, and I think we had the same springs, might be different in 85se, as 84se and Indy were essentially the GT of 84, my dad's Fiero has y99 springs, and the only bushings that have been replaced are the lower front control arm bushings, with poly. His rides not incredibly well, the whole rear shifts around a lot, and just from the 4 front lower poly bushings, there is a lot of vibration and noise, and they squeak like you wouldn't believe, he also has kyb front, original rear, and the ride is a combination of vague/floaty and loud and transmits all the little bumps. Not very good.

My Fiero has kyb front, Monroe back, poly everywhere(but done with a trick from this forum, wrapping the inner sleeve in Teflon tape, no squeaks), and the original ws6 springs, I feel basically everything, bigger bumps through the shocks, all small stuff through the bushings, I like it, it handles really well. I also have a rear swaybar added that makes it feel better on the road, but has yet to be tested at the end of grip, poly links in the front and rubber links in the rear, to make the rear less effective(installed zero lash front and poly rear with rubber rear mounts this winter, no tests yet). Turn in is quite good, and on gravel and normal roads, I have never experienced oversteer, the last part was solid cradle bushings, which I have already installed this winter, so is untested, but that is the last thing that was shifting around.

I think new rubber bushings is going to be what you want, all around, if you don't like all the little vibrations and potential squeaks, new rubber is going to be so much better then old originals, just doesn't transmit the tiny vibrations. either solid or poly engine cradle bushings, as that doesn't transmit vibration, it just shifts a lot, and Monroe shocks all around, in terms of handling, my front kyb and rear Monroe feel no different, both very good, but the front transmits more vibration. also have not tested the solid end links, but I installed them in the front(poly before), and they look good.

If I'm recalling correctly, I think generally it is recommended to put poly in the rear, all the time, and either poly or solid cradle bushings, as the rear shifts a lot with rubber, the front double wishbone design is pretty good with rubber, I don't know how much extra you would feel with poly rear, but considering the rear is extremely easy to redo without compressing springs, you can try poly, and change it out later, but stick with quality new rubber in the front.
theogre FEB 05, 01:18 PM
1. Use OE Springs w/ Gabriel or Monroe best, likely only version, Gas Shocks & Struts. This will be stiff hitting largish bumps, speed bumps, RR tracks, but can drive w/o rattling you teeth otherwise.

Any Springs for GT will be very stiff, more so WS6, because rear springs expect heavier engine.

2. All C-arms = rubber. do not mix "Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane"

No point using "End-links : Zero-Lash" If your kid or you even have notice this is "best." Suggest stop drinking koolaid. I doubt you could even tell polly for rubber for sway bar ends or centers except noise polly get older.

Only reason for polly is cradle because Doesn't move to make noise even if installs w/o silicon grease. Lube there just keeps out water etc cause rust.

see cave, https://web.archive.org/web...erocave/bushings.htm & rest of section.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

IMSA GT FEB 05, 02:20 PM
Just my opinion, others may have a different one but to me, all engine related bushings should remain rubber including cradle bushings and dogbone but the suspension components can be either rubber or poly. Keeping the engine area all rubber will take care of engine vibration noise.
Raydar FEB 05, 02:26 PM
Some random stuff...

I think all the 84-87 GT springs were WS6, by default, even if it's not on the label.
I have heard that KYBs tend to be harsh.

I have 88s, so take this info for what it's worth.
I have Monroe Sensatracs and full poly (except for trailing links) on both of my cars. I also have 45 series 17s. The ride is a bit rough, but not too bad for my 66 YO posterior.
One of my cars has 86 GT springs in the front, cut down by 1.25 coils.
The other has stock 88 coupe springs in the front, cut down by one coil.
One car has 88 front springs in the rear (I had to build upper perches for them) and the other has guru's coilovers.
Both cars have poly sway bar end link bushings, where the stock ones crumbled. All sway bar bushings are original rubber.

Recognize that the shorter the sidewall, the more vibration that will be transferred to the car.
I might suggest that 15" or 16" wheels, with 60 or 55 series tires will help to cushion the road shocks.
Narrow front wheels and/or higher offset will also help with low speed steering. (15" 88 fronts come to mind. Those wheels look great on bumperpad cars, and are still fairly common.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-05-2024).]

1985 Fiero GT FEB 05, 02:34 PM
Using ws6 springs will probably give the handling and ride the OP is after, like he said he wants stiff springs, looser shocks, but it might increase the ride height, especially in conjunction with the gas charged shocks/struts, not necessarily a bad thing for a first car that isn't entirely performance oriented, as for the swaybar end links, it may not make a noticeable difference, as for no point using them, they'll last way longer then rubber, look better, sound better, and do make a technical difference, for the same reason you replace spark plugs every so often and gap them properly, sure they'll run with incorrect gaps, and you may not notice a difference, but you might, and you might have reduced fuel economy, etc. a lot of little things add up to a big change, zero lash end links along with new rubber bushings, poly cradle bushings, new shocks, will end up being a very noticeable improvement.
1985 Fiero GT FEB 05, 02:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Just my opinion, others may have a different one but to me, all engine related bushings should remain rubber including cradle bushings and dogbone but the suspension components can be either rubber or poly. Keeping the engine area all rubber will take care of engine vibration noise.



For the cradle bushings it is recommended to use poly or solid mounts, as even Pontiac realized rubber was unnecessary and solid mounted the 88 cradles, rubber mounted cradles was because of the big poorly balanced engines of the 50s-70s. Even the dogbone could be poly, as the engine doesn't sit on it, it is more of a driveline shock absorber, to keep the assembly from rotating when accelerating, although it does transmit some vibration
1985 Fiero GT FEB 05, 02:51 PM

quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Some random stuff...

I think all the 84-87 GT springs were WS6, by default, even if it's not on the label.
I have heard that KYBs tend to be harsh.

I have 88s, so take this info for what it's worth.
I have Monroe Sensatracs and full poly (except for trailing links) on both of my cars. I also have 45 series 17s. The ride is a bit rough, but not too bad for my 66 YO posterior.
One of my cars has 86 GT springs in the front, cut down by 1.25 coils.
The other has stock 88 coupe springs in the front, cut down by one coil.
One car has 88 front springs in the rear (I had to build upper perches for them) and the other has guru's coilovers.
Both cars have poly sway bar end link bushings, where the stock ones crumbled. All sway bar bushings are original rubber.

Recognize that the shorter the sidewall, the more vibration that will be transferred to the car.
I might suggest that 15" or 16" wheels, with 60 or 55 series tires will help to cushion the road shocks.
Narrow front wheels and/or higher offset will also help with low speed steering. (15" 88 fronts come to mind. Those wheels look great on bumperpad cars, and are still fairly common.)




Ws6 is just the performance suspension package, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks, stiffer bushings, offered in every year, 84se has ws6, as do all year GTs, in 1988 ws6 meant more because it was an entirely different suspension altogether, but all other years has ws6 as an option on the rpo code sheet

Kybs are a bit harsh, I have kyb front and Monroe rear, and recognising that there is difference naturally front to rear, they both handle equally well, but the Monroe's didn't add any extra harshness, whereas the kyb did. Monroe all around would probably be best, unless you got fancy adjustable ones.

From the videos I've watched (all of them, I think) I'm pretty sure they're going to keep stock or very stock looking wheels and tires, they are restoring the car, without many "mods" especially visible ones like wheels. Also incidentally, I've driven a 4 cyl and 2v6 Fieros, the v6s have the exact same steering effort, and for some reason the 4cyl seemed to have considerably less steering effort, but was the same number of turns lock to lock, probably something to do with tire width, or less weight, maybe run a 205 or 195 tire on the front, 215 rear. Don't know how that would look.
82-T/A [At Work] FEB 05, 03:00 PM
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the replies!

Trying to put into perspective of course, this is my daughter's first car... and I want her to be able to enjoy the Fiero for all that it is... while at the same time... being as safe as possible, but also hoping to tamper her expectations. Her entire life, she's only known us to have SUVs. Matter of fact, she'd literally never seen my personal Fiero in person before her Gen-Z-Garage video where she went to visit it in the storage unit, haha.

I know my 87 Fiero rode like **** when it got older. It had all rubber bushings, and KYBs... and man, it sucked. Compare that to my 85 GT 4-Speed which had WS6 springs and felt awesome... but the shocks were totally shot so it pitched heavily in turns (hahah...) and I sold it before replacing the shocks. Probably the best handling (feeling) car I ever drove was my 84 Fiero 2m4 SE... which as 85 Fiero GT here said... it had WS6 springs, and I replaced them with some aftermarket front springs and it ran awesome.

I've since replaced ALL the bushings in my 87 Fiero with polyurethane... it looks awesome...




BUT... I've never actually driven it like this. The date in the picture is literally the last time this car was even at a house. It's been in storage since then, and I just never finished it. I have no idea what to expect, and I'll probably re-do all of this when I eventually get to my own car.


So if I understand correctly... All rubber in the front is good, poly for the cradle bushings is good (I have a black set of cradle bushings), and then a new rubber dog bone (which I've got), and then finally... poly for the rear control arms is OK?


One thing I remember with my 87 Fiero... is I'd go over a groove or a ridge in the road, and my back end would get all squirrely... i think this is what we called "bump steer." To be fair though, my suspension at the time was needing a little bit of work at that point. I want the car to be stable, handle safely, but also not be jarring. My daughter has only known SUVs... as this is all we've ever owned/driven since she was born. The only other car is my grandfather's 2002 Crown Victoria LX... which I inherited just before she was born, and that has a lofty suspension.
1985 Fiero GT FEB 05, 03:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

So if I understand correctly... All rubber in the front is good, poly for the cradle bushings is good (I have a black set of cradle bushings), and then a new rubber dog bone (which I've got), and then finally... poly for the rear control arms is OK?


One thing I remember with my 87 Fiero... is I'd go over a groove or a ridge in the road, and my back end would get all squirrely... i think this is what we called "bump steer." To be fair though, my suspension at the time was needing a little bit of work at that point. I want the car to be stable, handle safely, but also not be jarring. My daughter has only known SUVs... as this is all we've ever owned/driven since she was born. The only other car is my grandfather's 2002 Crown Victoria LX... which I inherited just before she was born, and that has a lofty suspension.



Yes pretty much, rubber for the dogbone (being a manual, could probably do poly, but there isn't much of a reason to, other then looking better) rubber in front, poly for cradle, your choice of rubber or poly for rear control arms, rubber will be gentler (but not as much of a different as in the front, as there is more mass in the rear to dampen the vibrations), but poly will reduce the squirrely back end, I know that for a fact because my Fiero when I got it handled just like my dad's (very loose in the back, can feel everything shifting as one turns, and I have basically upgraded everything while my dad's has stayed the same, so I can basically compare mine now to what it was, the poly rear control arm bushings helped the squirellyness a lot, even with rubber cradle mounts, I've since installed the metal cradle mounts, but haven't tested, as it's winter, but that was the last part that was moving unpredictably in turns/rough surfaces, poly should be good for that to keep vibrations super low but have it handle better. The difference between mine that still had original cradle bushings and my dad's is very different, to the point where when I last drive his (Christmas Eve) I felt I needed to take corners slower, and the car was occasionally the limit instead of the speed signs.

Like I said the rear is really really easy to change, so you can use poly first, then if you don't like it, can use rubber later, but if you use poly in the control arms, you must wrap the inner metal sleeve with a single layer of Teflon tape, don't know why it works, only that it does work, my dad's has only the front lower poly, without the Teflon tape, and it squeaked really badly right from the first day with those bushings, all my poly front bushings with the Teflon tape have had 13,000 hard km on them, in the rain, in the heat, and have had no real squeaks (one small small squeak when in the rain, probably just a small part that was missing Teflon tape)