 
     |
| suddenly loose steering and dead brakes (Page 1/4) |
|
cartercarbaficionado
|
MAY 06, 05:35 AM
|
|
driving the 88 after its key snapped off in my hand...yay?
anyways before and after it's replacement I noticed alot more steering play than it had last time I drove it ~1/4 turn either way and it's really trying to go into the other lane on every bump so it's going up on stands tommorrow and I'm gonna look for obvious problems though I know the tilt column probably has a worn bushing due to it pivoting to the bottom left when any force is applied but I'm hoping that isn't enough to cause me issues. Sudden addition on my way home from a stop I had to make to look the car over is that it's not being consistent, it's oversteering or not doing much at all at random and doesn't matter which way I turn but left turns seem to make this worse. ironically the only side with a working turn signal
2nd issue has been on and off for awhile and that's under any braking the pedal will suddenly feel like I dont have a brake booster mind you that's not because I'm going deeper into the pedal stroke but feels like my booster just loses all vaccum at random. normally a broken booster would cause the brakes go near the floor or cause the engine to run poorly right? for awhile I just assumed this was normal because it wasn't so bad but today the pedal just didn't move at all with any amount of force until I downshifting twice bringing revs to 4500 and then the pedal had a slight effect[This message has been edited by cartercarbaficionado (edited 05-06-2024).]
|
|
|
|
fieroguru
|
MAY 06, 07:06 AM
|
|
It sounds like you have a loose wheel bearing.
That will make the steering loose and slow responding, it will also allow the brake rotor to push the brake piston caliper further in, so that the next time it is pushed, it will take more pedal travel to close the gap.
When a booster fails, the brake pedal will become rock hard.
|
|
|
|
cartercarbaficionado
|
MAY 06, 07:20 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:
It sounds like you have a loose wheel bearing.
That will make the steering loose and slow responding, it will also allow the brake rotor to push the brake piston caliper further in, so that the next time it is pushed, it will take more pedal travel to close the gap.
When a booster fails, the brake pedal will become rock hard. |
|
it's hard to put into words how it's handling...other than like a mild suggestion on where to go and it will either cut the corner on a rail or just handle like a tractor sliding down a hill if that makes sense
the brakes are just weird. the pedal is Rock hard but only if you actually need to do anything with it, if it's slowing down on a highway cruise it feels like it should but if I'm in stop and go then i have to push hard enough that I feel the seat rail starting to give way
|
|
|
|
1985 Fiero GT
|
MAY 06, 09:07 AM
|
|
|
For 88, it could be a steering rag joint, some had them some didn't, I think Rodney makes a replacement, when it goes bad, it will massively increase free play, but can be sporadic depending on the force used, and the position it is in. Your brakes definitely sound like a dead booster or something along the vacuum line for it
|
|
|
|
olejoedad
|
MAY 06, 09:08 AM
|
|
It sounds like it's time to take it off the road until it's not a hazard to everyone else.
Get the problems fixed!
|
|
|
|
theogre
|
MAY 06, 09:19 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado:
driving the 88 after its key snapped off in my hand...yay?
anyways before and after it's replacement I noticed alot more steering play than it had last time I drove it ~1/4 turn either way and it's really trying to go into the other lane on every bump so it's going up on stands tommorrow and I'm gonna look for obvious problems though I know the tilt column probably has a worn bushing due to it pivoting to the bottom left when any force is applied but I'm hoping that isn't enough to cause me issues. Sudden addition on my way home from a stop I had to make to look the car over is that it's not being consistent, it's oversteering or not doing much at all at random and doesn't matter which way I turn but left turns seem to make this worse. ironically the only side with a working turn signal
2nd issue has been on and off for awhile and that's under any braking the pedal will suddenly feel like I dont have a brake booster mind you that's not because I'm going deeper into the pedal stroke but feels like my booster just loses all vaccum at random. normally a broken booster would cause the brakes go near the floor or cause the engine to run poorly right? for awhile I just assumed this was normal because it wasn't so bad but today the pedal just didn't move at all with any amount of force until I downshifting twice bringing revs to 4500 and then the pedal had a slight effect |
|
Steering play = Do Not Drive The Car!
Can be any thing & likely more then 1 thing wrong w/ the steering.
See https://web.archive.org/web...~fierocave/steer.htm
"normally a broken booster would cause the brakes go near the floor or cause the engine to run poorly right?" Bad Booster Will Never "floor the pedal" Nor will Not make engine problems most times more so w/ "hard pedal" you can't push.
Booster or line w/ big vac leak problem(s) can make Engine Idle High to kill the engine when 3/8" or 1/2" vac line fails. (87-88 Fiero has 1/2" booster vac line.) Bad booster often won't make a big vac leak & many times won't cause high idle too. Example: often a "dead" booster failed 1 of 2 diaphragms & cause harder pedal all the time but leak little vacuum when it happens.
your problem... The vac line to the booster or booster itself can "Jam"/"Plug" & give very hard pedal because low/no vacuum getting thru. Or has vacuum but control valve in the booster is bad or full of crap blocking operation.
when intermittent, look in back for bad motor/trans mounts & related parts letting engine to move pulling/pinching wires hose etc.
But an Iffy MC can do the same because how it's made.
Example: Quick take up section must "vent" to the tank once done its job. if can't = hard pedal.
See https://web.archive.org/web...ierocave/brakes4.htm------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)
The Ogre's Fiero Cave
|
|
|
|
82-T/A [At Work]
|
MAY 06, 10:28 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado:
the brakes are just weird. the pedal is Rock hard but only if you actually need to do anything with it, if it's slowing down on a highway cruise it feels like it should but if I'm in stop and go then i have to push hard enough that I feel the seat rail starting to give way |
|
On this... when you say push hard enough... can you go into more detail?
You were saying the brakes are rock hard (which is good), but are you saying that the car just doesn't brake after stop and go traffic? Meaning that no matter how hard you push... it takes forever for the brakes to actually stop? As long as the pedal itself "feels the same" (meaning that it's not going to the floor with little effort), then this could be "brake fade."
I get a lot of flack for this, but when I was younger, I drove my Fiero HARD. Like, flooring it at every light, and slamming the brakes before every light I missed. The brakes would heat up fiercely to the point where I'd see smoke coming from both front wheels when I'd stop after some seriously spirited driving.
This is because the brakes glaze over, and the brake feeling I would get is as exactly as you described. This is known as "brake fade," which is essentially the inability to brake because the surface area doesn't really have any "gripping" power, no matter how hard you push down on the brakes. There's so much heat that the rotors become slick to the point where they cannot grip and the pads effectively just slide.
Now, if you're NOT driving like a maniac, then it's possible your brakes are leaking and brake fluid might be getting on the rotor (generally unlikely). And if this was the case, it would probably be 1 rotor, and not both at the same time... in which case the car would pitch violently to one side when you brake. I think you have brake fade...
In my opinion, with that kind of aggressive driving, the short-term fix is to have the rotors turned (they're now "glazed") and replace the pads... (and change out fluid while you're at it). But honestly... the real fix for this is to get a pair of cross-drilled and slotted front rotors. You really only need them for the front. You can do the back too... but it would really only be for looks as the back really doesn't need them. The brakes on the Fiero, while decent, are sub-par for seriously aggressive driving, and they will glaze over if you do it with some regularity. With OEM-sized cross-drilled and slotted rotors, it allows the brakes to much more easily cool off and prevents glazing of the rotors. They should cost only a little bit more than non-cross drilled and slotted rotors. You have an 88, so it's a little bit harder to find... but that will solve that problem.
Just to put it into comparison... I had to buy new rotors and pads every year for three years in a row... and when I eventually went with cross-drilled rotors... those lasted for several years before I eventually replaced them to go to a much bigger brake kit.
|
|
|
|
theogre
|
MAY 06, 11:36 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
This is because the brakes glaze over, and the brake feeling I would get is as exactly as you described. This is known as "brake fade," which is essentially the inability to brake because the surface area doesn't really have any "gripping" power, no matter how hard you push down on the brakes. There's so much heat that the rotors become slick to the point where they cannot grip and the pads effectively just slide. |
|
This Is Not a Fade Problem.
Glazing can be cause by Overheating & more reasons. Big 1 is oil & other crap getting on the pads/shoes & that contamination can glaze the pads. Example: Many do not clean new rotors/drums & anti-rust coating contaminates & glaze the friction material even driving a few miles to generate only 300-500°F on the pad face.
True Fade often recovers brake function when parts are cool off again. Example: Idiot "truckers" w/o a clue uses brakes wrong going down hill then brake won't work. If they survives the event & brake cool then often will work like nothing happen.
Unfortunately many ignore the event & do same again & damage fiction finally gives up & 1 or more wheels have no brakes or cause a hub/wheel fire as fiction pieces drag.
Other times the Fade is cause by bad parts like Fiero Sliders stuck or Rear Piston(s) are bad causing Dragging Pads that keep the pads Hot. More so w/ "cheap" pads that can't dump heat on the face fast.
|
|
|
|
82-T/A [At Work]
|
MAY 06, 12:36 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by theogre:
This Is Not a Fade Problem.
Glazing can be cause by Overheating & more reasons. Big 1 is oil & other crap getting on the pads/shoes & that contamination can glaze the pads. Example: Many do not clean new rotors/drums & anti-rust coating contaminates & glaze the friction material even driving a few miles to generate only 300-500°F on the pad face.
True Fade often recovers brake function when parts are cool off again. Example: Idiot "truckers" w/o a clue uses brakes wrong going down hill then brake won't work. If they survives the event & brake cool then often will work like nothing happen.
Unfortunately many ignore the event & do same again & damage fiction finally gives up & 1 or more wheels have no brakes or cause a hub/wheel fire as fiction pieces drag.
Other times the Fade is cause by bad parts like Fiero Sliders stuck or Rear Piston(s) are bad causing Dragging Pads that keep the pads Hot. More so w/ "cheap" pads that can't dump heat on the face fast. |
|
Ogre... I think you need to take the totality of what I said. In absolute terms, yes... what I experienced was 100% brake fade after lots of stop and go traffic, and lots of aggressive driving and riding the brakes. It was mostly back to normal every time I'd start driving again the next morning (once they cooled off), and never had any issues at all on the highway. I'd eventually have to replace them because the rotors would warp from such extreme heat. I certainly did the job properly... repacked the bearings, cleaned the rotors, new pads, even new calipers... same thing. I was young, and very aggressive. As I said... there were times I'd stop at a light and I would actually see smoke emanating from both front wheels. Once or twice at night, the front rotors were actually glowing red. I'm simply asking if this matches (to a degree) his experience. The problem is that once you experience brake fade, you tend to ruin your rotors until you have them turned as they become glazed.
How do Rotors Become "Glazed"
Temperatures exceed the brake pad limits - Rotors become glazed when temperatures exceed the brake pad limits. The pad material hardens and forms a glassy, smooth pad surface, which means they can no longer create friction with the rotors. Pads may also crack and fracture. Removing the brake pads and sanding their surfaces can temporarily alleviate these symptoms. This will cause them to no longer appear mirror smooth.
What happens if a brake rotor is hard glazed? - It is also common for the hard glazing to transfer to the brake disc (rotor) from the pad surface. This results in a marked reduction in friction which leads to a decrease in braking performance. Excessive stopping distances result from the glazing, which can happen undetected by drivers.
I don't think the Fiero's brakes are bad. I think the problem is that it generally handles pretty well for what it is... and it inspires very spirited driving. Since its basically a parts bin, along with Citation X/11 parts (of which would likely never be driven at the limits of a Fiero), people often drive the Fiero in a way it just wasn't built to. EDIT: I realize the 88's have different brakes, etc... but I'm not aware of them being any larger or perceivably any different. I've never had these problems on any of my other cars, but had this issue on three V6 Fieros I've owned when I was much younger. I think the Fiero is just too much fun to drive that it gets driven to its limits with the V6. I'll say this... a lot of people have run into these issues, and it's why there's so many brake packages out there.
A stock V6 Fiero... even a fairly well modified one... is OK if you drive it responsibly on the street. But it could never handle prolonged racing conditions. I'm not talking about doing a couple off Solo-1 and Solo-2 SCCA challenges... I mean like an endurance race. Unfortunately, a lot of people drive like that on the street, including myself when I was younger. Anyway, going with a cross drilled (or even just slotted), basically totally solves this problem.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 05-06-2024).]
|
|
|
|
1985 Fiero GT
|
MAY 06, 01:41 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Ogre... I think you need to take the totality of what I said. In absolute terms, yes... what I experienced was 100% brake fade after lots of stop and go traffic, and lots of aggressive driving and riding the brakes. It was mostly back to normal every time I'd start driving again the next morning (once they cooled off), and never had any issues at all on the highway. I'd eventually have to replace them because the rotors would warp from such extreme heat. I certainly did the job properly... repacked the bearings, cleaned the rotors, new pads, even new calipers... same thing. I was young, and very aggressive. As I said... there were times I'd stop at a light and I would actually see smoke emanating from both front wheels. Once or twice at night, the front rotors were actually glowing red. I'm simply asking if this matches (to a degree) his experience. The problem is that once you experience brake fade, you tend to ruin your rotors until you have them turned as they become glazed.
How do Rotors Become "Glazed"
Temperatures exceed the brake pad limits - Rotors become glazed when temperatures exceed the brake pad limits. The pad material hardens and forms a glassy, smooth pad surface, which means they can no longer create friction with the rotors. Pads may also crack and fracture. Removing the brake pads and sanding their surfaces can temporarily alleviate these symptoms. This will cause them to no longer appear mirror smooth.
What happens if a brake rotor is hard glazed? - It is also common for the hard glazing to transfer to the brake disc (rotor) from the pad surface. This results in a marked reduction in friction which leads to a decrease in braking performance. Excessive stopping distances result from the glazing, which can happen undetected by drivers.
I don't think the Fiero's brakes are bad. I think the problem is that it generally handles pretty well for what it is... and it inspires very spirited driving. Since its basically a parts bin, along with Citation X/11 parts (of which would likely never be driven at the limits of a Fiero), people often drive the Fiero in a way it just wasn't built to. EDIT: I realize the 88's have different brakes, etc... but I'm not aware of them being any larger or perceivably any different. I've never had these problems on any of my other cars, but had this issue on three V6 Fieros I've owned when I was much younger. I think the Fiero is just too much fun to drive that it gets driven to its limits with the V6. I'll say this... a lot of people have run into these issues, and it's why there's so many brake packages out there.
A stock V6 Fiero... even a fairly well modified one... is OK if you drive it responsibly on the street. But it could never handle prolonged racing conditions. I'm not talking about doing a couple off Solo-1 and Solo-2 SCCA challenges... I mean like an endurance race. Unfortunately, a lot of people drive like that on the street, including myself when I was younger. Anyway, going with a cross drilled (or even just slotted), basically totally solves this problem.
|
|
I think his specific symptoms are not brake fade, and more the booster.
As for the difference in the 88 brakes, they are vented front and rear, which would be even more effective at cooling then drilled/slotted rotors.
I live in a place where the main roads are equivalent to backroads in most other places, windy enough to feel like an autocross course, with trees right up to the road in many places, the speed limits here are also more of a dare then a limit, I drive hard (nowhere near as hard as you haha) and have fun, but never exceed the speed limit, drive more like autocross then like on a drag strip with dozens of traffic lights. I took my grandma for a ride yesterday, I hit 40km/h at the end of first gear, and she was like "slow down slow down, what's the speed limit here" it's 60 km/h, and it took a few seconds for her to realize that yes, we were going fairly slowly, but the snappy acceleration and being in such a small low car (she had only driven a Nissan Sentra for the last few years) made her think we were speeding way over the limit, in first gear haha.
|
|
|
|