Sway Bars and Camber (Page 1/3)
hunter29 JUN 26, 08:52 PM
Any of you do TFS front and rear sway bars.

If so how did you set up camber, stock specs or did you add a degree of negative camber over stock.

Im planning on adding the sway bars when they come in but will be going in for an alignment soon so if any changes are worth while now is my time to do them..
Frenchrafe JUN 27, 05:17 AM
On my car for circuit/trackdays:
Front -2.0° to -2.5° camber.
Rear -1.5° to - 2.0° camber.
Having a fair amount of -ve on the front helps to steer in on the corners. But stabilty at high speeds is compromised. (White knuckle driving!)

For drag racing:
Front 0.0° to -0.25° camber.
Rear -0.5° to -1.0° camber.
Don't want a high speed wobble to start! But do need to keep the rear contact patch as wide (and flat) as possible.

And yes, my '87 has anti-roll bars front and rear.

Edit: I don't like any toe in on the rear. The front I keep pretty stock setting.

------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France! @turboslugfiero
https://youtu.be/hUzOAeyWLfM

[This message has been edited by Frenchrafe (edited 06-27-2024).]

hunter29 JUN 27, 08:48 PM
Thanks for that, I'm asking for a street car, the one degree was suggested to me and I was seeking opinions.
Frenchrafe JUN 28, 06:05 AM
Yes, -1° over stock is probably good?
You will have to see how the car feels for you? That's all.
If it is "jittery" in handling, then go back to stock settings.

Here's some info dug up in the archives:

84-87 Fiero

Caster -5.00 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (Front) +0.50 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (Rear) -1.00 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/16” toe-IN

88 Fiero

Caster -3.00 degrees +/- .050
Camber (Front) 0.00 degrees +/- .050
Camber (Rear) -1.00 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/16” toe-IN


These specs were NOT meant by Pontiac to make a Fiero handle at its prime in corners. Rather, it is a compromise between handling and ride. These specs are meant to make the Fiero work for student drivers, old men hunched over the steering wheel with a death grip on it, hot-rod teens, and cruising cross country in a straight line with cruise control set. The stock settings are used for both the stickiest tires and the cheapo’s with a sidewall so flexible you can move the tire side to side by hand. GM and Pontiac have one setting for all types and styles of driving - not what you should want in your Fiero!

For an excellent performing daily driven street Fiero, I would suggest the following (again, as a starting point). These specs will apply to both the early chassis and the ’88.

Caster - 4.50 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (All Around) - 0.50 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 0.00 (neutral) to 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (rear) 1/16” to 1/8” toe-IN

For a point of reference, I have my dual-purpose 85SE (daily driven and race driven at autocrosses and track days) with an ’88 cradle/suspension set up as follows:

Caster -3.50 degrees (I like the quick turn-in this provides)
Camber -1.00 degrees all around
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/8” toe-IN

------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France! @turboslugfiero
https://youtu.be/hUzOAeyWLfM

hunter29 JUN 28, 07:47 PM

quote
Originally posted by Frenchrafe:

Yes, -1° over stock is probably good?
You will have to see how the car feels for you? That's all.
If it is "jittery" in handling, then go back to stock settings.

Here's some info dug up in the archives:

84-87 Fiero

Caster -5.00 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (Front) +0.50 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (Rear) -1.00 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/16” toe-IN

88 Fiero

Caster -3.00 degrees +/- .050
Camber (Front) 0.00 degrees +/- .050
Camber (Rear) -1.00 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/16” toe-IN


These specs were NOT meant by Pontiac to make a Fiero handle at its prime in corners. Rather, it is a compromise between handling and ride. These specs are meant to make the Fiero work for student drivers, old men hunched over the steering wheel with a death grip on it, hot-rod teens, and cruising cross country in a straight line with cruise control set. The stock settings are used for both the stickiest tires and the cheapo’s with a sidewall so flexible you can move the tire side to side by hand. GM and Pontiac have one setting for all types and styles of driving - not what you should want in your Fiero!

For an excellent performing daily driven street Fiero, I would suggest the following (again, as a starting point). These specs will apply to both the early chassis and the ’88.

Caster - 4.50 degrees +/- 0.50
Camber (All Around) - 0.50 degrees +/- .050
Toe (Front) 0.00 (neutral) to 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (rear) 1/16” to 1/8” toe-IN

For a point of reference, I have my dual-purpose 85SE (daily driven and race driven at autocrosses and track days) with an ’88 cradle/suspension set up as follows:

Caster -3.50 degrees (I like the quick turn-in this provides)
Camber -1.00 degrees all around
Toe (Front) 1/16” toe-OUT
Toe (Rear) 1/8” toe-IN





Thank you !!
Yellow-88 JUN 29, 09:27 AM
Your using stock rubber bushings and camber has noting to do with sway bars. Go stock specs and use stock size tires.
Stock tire diameter and offset is also an important design spec.
hunter29 JUN 29, 09:56 AM
A fresh suspension and the addition of sway bars is going to help keep the car flat when cornering, the result is going to push the tires harder , No ?

I am going with stock specs btw,

[This message has been edited by hunter29 (edited 06-29-2024).]

Yellow-88 JUN 29, 10:57 AM

quote
Originally posted by hunter29:

A fresh suspension and the addition of sway bars is going to help keep the car flat when cornering, the result is going to push the tires harder , No ?

I am going with stock specs btw,




Push the tires harder? meaning that sway bars let you push harder? Yes, but adding extra camber doesn't compensate for that. The idea is to keep the largest possible tire contact patch for all 4 tires, always. Camber other than zero puts more load on the edge of the contact patch, making it a bit smaller. Suspension is designed to compensate for the fact that the chassis "rolls" in a corner. At maximum roll, camber should be zero.

Suspension geometry gets pretty involved pretty quickly. That's my favorite part of car stuff, and I try to get into some of it in the varies threads that I'm in. You'll find my input in any thread about suspension.

In a nutshell, if you running a stock car on real roads, trust the designers. Running with unnecessary camber just eats tires. Yes, sway bars should have been included in the design.
hunter29 JUN 29, 02:54 PM

quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:


Push the tires harder? meaning that sway bars let you push harder? Yes, but adding extra camber doesn't compensate for that. The idea is to keep the largest possible tire contact patch for all 4 tires, always. Camber other than zero puts more load on the edge of the contact patch, making it a bit smaller. Suspension is designed to compensate for the fact that the chassis "rolls" in a corner. At maximum roll, camber should be zero.

Suspension geometry gets pretty involved pretty quickly. That's my favorite part of car stuff, and I try to get into some of it in the varies threads that I'm in. You'll find my input in any thread about suspension.

In a nutshell, if you running a stock car on real roads, trust the designers. Running with unnecessary camber just eats tires. Yes, sway bars should have been included in the design.



Ok I understand, I was giving bad advice, I was told a bit more camber would keep the tire patch flat. Thanks for your input.

[This message has been edited by hunter29 (edited 06-29-2024).]

stevep914 JUN 29, 05:04 PM
I want to step in here with a question (86 2.8 Ferrari F 40 replica); my car is about a foot wider than stock, although suspension looks relatively stock( ( poly bushings in the front) tires are 245/ 16 front, and 295/16 in the rear. No spacers. Would this alter my suspension settings? I am going to do a self alignment this summer ( no shop here has equipment for this car) car lately is wandering on the highway.