Here we go...
Project MIDTRBO is well underway, initially I wanted to wait until more details were set before posting my build thread, but mostly my work and health issues have gotten in the way since I've been ready to. Well right now is a good time (for bad reasons). I'm going to start by leading up to where it is now in several segments, then I'll continue on with the current progress as it happens.

As some of you may remember, I bought my '88 GT from RandomTask without a drivetrain in Oct. 2007, and with the intention of some various swap. Unfortunately I was defrauded into believing that it had 22k original miles, but it turns out that it has 122k original miles. Long story short (details belong in, and are in, that thread), I reached a settlement with RandomTask after figuring this out and received a lot of my money back, and decided to go on with the project. While 22k still would have had its benefits, 122k isn't a project killer when I'm going so far into it anyway. Of course this all left a bitter taste in my mouth, but that just prompted me to go even further in making it "my own".

I bought it in some various state of project-ness, as it was intended to have a different swap. Most notably, much of the suspension was rebuilt and powdercoated.
-I'm going to say it now to avoid wrong impressions... I don't care for red, it won't be anywhere close to red when it gets painted, so don't get any ideas-

As it was when I picked it up (though I didn't get the chin spoiler and don't want one)...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

So...
I'd gone down to Will's place in VA to check out the setup, all looked well. We determined without a doubt that the TGP turbo Y-pipe interfered with the Getrag linkages (FWD or Fiero Getrag, doesn't matter). The TGP T25 turbo was locked up anyway, but who cares, it's tiny junk anyway. I left with all the transaction details worked out and one hell of a motorcycle ride over Thornton Gap in the Blueridge mountains of rural VA. Will was to deliver the goods to me at a later date.

Unfortunately I didn't get pics of the engine and tranny arriving at my house, but it was quite amusing. Will installed a hitch onto his '90 Pontiac 6000 AWD and pulled a medium-sized homemade trailer with the tranny bolted to the engine, strapped down in the middle. It was quite the redneck looking setup!

After unloading it all, more details and plans were thought out. I fabbed a cradle-dolly and we removed the cradle.
I ordered all new poly trans mounts and brackets and a poly front engine mount and adjustable dogbone from Rodney Dickman, and was hoping to use the TGP front engine mount bracket, as it's significantly stronger looking than a stock '88 front mount, which has a tendency to crack. Unfortunately this is what we found out, the FWD mount would not work, even with new holes drilled (note the rust-caused pitting of the 170k mile cradle underneath the powdercoat... I hope it'll be strong enough everywhere)...




So, I ordered a stock '88 front engine mount from the Fiero Factory, and all went well. The bracket looks like this, though that isn't mine and I used the RD poly mount pictured above. If it won't hold up, I'll reinforce it with my fancy new MIG welder and some sheet steel.




The clutch is from Clutchnet and supposedly will hold 450hp according to them. It isn't pictured, but the disk hub springs are encased in the hub unlike the cheap-crap Spec setup that regularly loses its springs in these cars. Will resurfaced an '88 flywheel for me.




After everything arrived and was installed here's what I ended up with...





The green injectors you see are 42 lb/hr, should take everything I can throw at them for now.
A LOT of work still ahead at that point...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

I'm going to jump over to the suspension for now as this was being worked at the same time as the next few drivetrain steps.

The suspension parts left untouched were the rear strut setups and the front shocks (actually those were missing altogether).
I hope to document in another thread the electrolysis process I used for rust removal, but you can see the results here.

Here are the money shots, the before and after. Obviously the left side was untouched and I de-rusted, POR-15'd, and re-assembled the right side with Koni adjustable's (the other side was then done as well)...






Upper spring perch untouched...




Upper spring perch de-rusted (almost completely at that point, anyway)...



More on this another day, in another thread.


The springs are stock for now because I want this car to handle properly, and very well. When I say that, I mean that if lowering springs (or lowered coilovers) are used without changing some other things, the geometry is negatively affected, I think the roll center. I forget the terms for sure, but you can ask Will if you want clarification on this...
Basically, in the rear suspension the angle at which the the control arms are placed changes when you lower the ride height via the strut assembly. In other words, the cradle mounting points drop while the spindle mounting points stay the same. This is very bad for neutral handling in the 88's. To remedy this, there are only two practical ways to go about it. By installing drop spindles which don't change geometry at all, or by raising the cradle mounting points. There are no available rear drop spindles for this car so that's out for me, which leaves raising the cradle mounting points.

I've heard that someone has done this without even lowering the car and had very very good results (an extremely neutral handling car) because it improves on the original geometry, but the problem is clearance (mainly with the axles). It's tight in there, and I'll need to measure everything once the car is fully put together. I think I'll be able to go up an inch with these mounts which will allow me to lower the rear an inch without affecting the control arm angle at all. I'm all for improving the stock geometry, but I really can't stand how high these things sit stock. I'll be okay with the factory angle and a lower ride height. However, if I can go up 1.5", I either have the option to lower it by 1.5" or leave it at 1" and have an improved angle. I'll hunt down an '88 rear cradle in nicer shape, weld up new mounts then get the whole thing powdercoated, swap cradles then sell this one. Simple.

There are other geometry changes as well, some of which I'm not sure as to the effect. One that makes me wonder is the trailing arm angle and if lowering will cause less pro-squat, resulting in reduced forward traction. I don't think it's as doable to modify that angle, but it may be. Once again, I'll figure out more later. So anyway, that's why I left the stock springs in. I don't ever want to negatively affect the factory handling, I only want to improve where possible and practical.

As for the front springs, he cut them a good bit before I got the car. Totally unacceptable. I acquired another set of stock '88 GT front springs, and they will be used for similar reasons as the rear (geometry changes). I need to research more, but I've read that the new owner of HT Motorsports (Held) is redesigning or has redesigned their '88 front drop spindles. If he works out the issues with the previous design, I'll go that route and lower 1 or 1.5" up there.
More later...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

It's going to start getting more interesting now, and so an apt time to explain the car's name (if you care to read).

MIDTRBO.
Notice my username of ALLTRBO, that comes from the license plate version (7-letter maximum states) of All Turbo. My 11.9 @ 118mph '96 Talon is named ALLTRBO because it's nothing WITHOUT the turbo (and a play on "All motor"). I use this username because I now have more than one turbo vehicle, and the goal is for all of them to be.
The twin-turbo Camaro, naturally, is TWNTRBO. Now somewhere in between 4 cylinders and 8 cylinders comes 6 cylinders, that's smack dab in the middle of the other two, and also the perfect cylinder count for a Fiero which mine happens to be, and you guessed it, it's a mid-engined car. There you have it, ALLTRBO, MIDTRBO, TWNTRBO, and my tiny-turbo'd motorcycle, SMLTRBO.

Now, the choice was yet to be made, which turbo to use for this car? Upon studying many compressor maps and much more research, I had come to decide on a Garrett T3/T4 based on price, reliability, and availability. I was going to use a T04E compressor housing with either a 60-trim wheel or a 60-1 wheel, and a .82 A/R turbine housing with a "stage III" wheel. I called a few different suppliers for quotes, the last of which was Tim's Turbos in VA and he told me that if I wanted it, he had a custom T3/S258 Borg Warner hybrid turbo that he built for someone who ended up not coming up with the cash, and he'd let it go cheap if I bought it before the end of the year because they were trying to clear out of inventory, and as you may know, the economy had tanked (this was Dec. 27th or thereabouts, 2008). He told me that the original price was $1400 that the guy couldn't pay, so make an offer. I told him I'd call him back. I looked up the specs and really liked what I saw, it was pretty much a great match for this setup whether on low-boost or high, and even with my planned future (REAL) engine build. Rest of the long story short, I took delivery of this $1400 turbo for $850 shipped.

It has a Garrett T3 .82 a/r turbine housing machined to fit the Borg Warner (Bullseye Power is the same thing) S258 turbine wheel and compressor side. Definitely bigger than this setup will need initially, but it isn't too massive.

Here's the compressor map...



If you understand what's going on here, notice the ability of this thing to remain quite efficient at very high pressure ratios. This is because the exducer to inducer ratio is pretty high (a lower 'trim', 44 in this case). One drawback of that is the higher likelyhood of compressor surge, but that's negated by the anti-surge compressor housing. What all this means is that for the size, the compressor can flow a whole lot of air if your setup can handle the higher boost it likes. This is why Bullseye Power/Borg Warner turbos do very well against the competition when in inducer-size (58mm in this case) limited classes of racing.

If you don't know WTH I'm talking about, I'll just say that it'll max out at almost 600whp with the right setup.

Here it is versus the stock TGP T25...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

Hold on, hold on. In order.

quote Originally posted by DefEddie: i'm gearing up to do the same thing on mine. Haven't started looking at compressor maps or anything yet though. I'm thinking of doing 3400 heads and lower,3.1 upper(cause I like it) and also upgrading to a T3 flange. Other than that going stock bottom end (freshened of course). What are you going to do regarding the alternator location? I plan to just pull it all apart,and start mounting brackets till I find a way to fit it and the AC. Hard to believe there is no other spot for it,but i've not started playing yet. If you have more pics of the mounts etc.. and what you have done,are doing then post em up. Looking forward to following this thread.

Yeah, I saw that killer deal you got on the TGP, nice score. Are you going to use an auto? That Y-pipe won't fit with a manual as mentioned, but you may be talking about upgrading to a T3 flange on a custom Y-pipe for a manual if so? Either way, a T3 based turbine is a good choice.

The 3.1 upper won't fit on a 3400/3100 lower, not even close. You wouldn't want it to, though, it flows nothing compared to the later stuff. Do upgrade the whole top end, it'll be worth it despite losing the "3.1 Intercooled Turbo" moniker. More on that upgrade here, later (aforementioned changes).

Alternator will be put down low rear of the engine, in the original Fiero area, with a custom bracket. No cutting of the decklid to cause bowing for me, thanks. It'll fit down there just fine, just needs a fab'd setup to get there.
The TGP A/C compressor fits as is, down low in the front.
Unfortunately no more pics of the mounts yet, but there will be eventually.

quote Originally posted by fieroX: couple of things, first off Bullseye turbos are freaking amazing. I love the S362 I have with my 3800. It spools very fast (pulls the front wheels on a good launch). You said something about 600 whp with your setup. Possible, but not likely to happen with a 3.1. I made 548 whp on 24 psi with long tube headers and E85. The 3.1 is a lot less efficient engine, and to make that kind of power you will need 35+ psi, but on the other hand that engine wont be able to process 35 psi of boost, it will just keep stacking pressure inside the intake tract. Something to think about, you may want to consider extensive port work, cam profile, and a custom intake plenums. Also about that Bullseye turbo. You got a pretty good deal, but Tim is Bullsh1tting you on the price. Those are about $950 retail. Dealer cost is about $650. I am a dealer for them too. Im not bashing, Im just trying to give you some realism/criticism. I think the turbo is matched well for a 3.1L, but do some research when figuring out what cam profile etc, will work best with your combo. Also what will you be using for exhaust manifolds/headers? The .82 a/r might be a bit much for a 3.1. I am running the .82 a/r T4 turbine on mine. It spools very fast because I have it set up so that the exhaust pulses alternate into the twin scroll turbine housing. Something else you might consider. On a 3.1 something closer to a .70 a/r will be more efficient. Just some stuff to think about thats all. Ryan

Thanks for the insights, however, some slight corrections needed here...
To reiterate, I said "it'll max out at almost 600whp with the right setup.", mine not being even close to that. You are correct, a Gen II 3.1 is not a very efficient engine, nor could this bottom end handle almost 600whp even if I could get the stock TGP top end there.
I haven't gotten to the part in the build yet where I upgraded to a 3400 top end for reason's I'll get into later (trying to stay chronological here), but that is a much much more efficient setup (3400 heads flow better than un-ported 3800 heads). With this, I hope for somewhere around 350whp on 15psi and 93 octane with a good air/water IC, and somewhere around 400whp on 20ish psi with race gas. Once I build the later planned "3200" with a stout bottom end and various other things, I think I could reach 500whp on boost in the upper 20's. I don't plan on ever maxing the turbo out. Sorry for the confusion.

As I mentioned, this S258 had a Garrett T3 exhaust side machined to fit by them, and that raises the price. I don't really agree with how much more it raises the price, but I located a few different places on the internet (I'd have to search again) that offer this service, and theirs are all about $1400 as well, vs. ~$1000 for an out of the box S258. He really didn't want to let it go for that, but he did when I told him I couldn't pay a penny more (The T3/T4's I was looking at were around $700).

The Garrett T3 .82 a/r turbine isn't all that large, not even close to a T4 .82 a/r turbine. On my Talon I have a Garrett T3 .63 a/r turbine for its 2 liter revving to 7500 and it's about right, but could go slightly bigger even. I do think the .82 will do well on the 3.1, and I'll be running it up to at least 6200 (stock 3100 redline).
Despite this, I do admit that the turbine is more of a guessing game than the compressor, and I'll have to wait and see how it performs. If I need to go down to a .63 T3 (the next size down) for some reason, It won't be hard to get one machined for it.

I do thank you for trying to help with a good attitude. Much appreciated.

Oh, and these are (soon) going to be the manifolds, with 1 5/8" primaries. It's not the most efficient design in the world, but they are loads better than some logs I've seen make unexpectedly good power.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]