To me, its gone beyond just the flame wars, as has been said dozens of times prior, you can always choose not to read T-O/T; Even having had the O/T section shut down, doing that again I personally think will solve nothing. People will still post pointless and slanderous drivel in the other sections. We've seen this before. It goes beyond just simple flaming, its difficult to even help anyone anymore.

Someone posts a simple straightforward question, a half hour later you check back and there is a clear and concise answer to the question. Check it again in 3 hours and theres 7 more posts talking about how thats totally wrong, or a stupid idea, or my personal favorite, someone quoting a previous post, explaining that is WAY off base, totally incorrect, and then explaining in almost identical detail a solution that is the same as they called wrong from the person that was quoted. Its just stupid.
I relate it to people that talk to hear their own voice.
Often times a realistic question gets sidetracked and ends up being a conversation about anything BUT the question, and the person that asks leaves confused and/or frustrated. Even if the question was answered, its totally unnecessary 'hijacking' i believe it was called not too long ago.

What does this all have to do with the price of tea in China?
People have lost respect for this service. By a large percentage of the people, it is expected, rather than appreciated. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of the people here, but it DOES apply to a good quantity, and thats all it takes to set the mood for everyone. I know I for one don't post to but maybe one tenth of the questions that i read and could respond to. I have the knowledge, i have the experience. But before i decide if i want to post, i consider how much crap is possible that will follow.
A new person joins and asks a relatively common question, i would 'like' to answer it for them, but i know 4 more people will tell them to search the archives without even answering it. Throw in one or two more responses by people telling them the 'correct' section it should be psoted in. And maybe one out of 10 of these instances someone will just be a total ass about it, and then yet another flaming begins.
Yeah thats a nice welcome. You can inform people of these things AFTER the niceties you know.

It just seems like too many people in the kitchen sometimes.

I know no one is going to come close to agreeing with anything i've had to say on this matter, let alone what i am about to say, as i know the attitude of my post is rather defeatist. But i think what would really help everyone is to have some time in the corner by themselves. A nice little Forum time-out. Shut it down for a few days all together. Maybe a week or so. Even just restricting posting, so that new people or people in quick need of information can search the archives.

Taking the forums away for 2 hours or whatever it was last time helped... but only for a day or two. The problem has grown, in my opinion, exponentially since then. Give the people some REAL time to think about what they risk losing, and perhaps they will learn to appreciate it more.

And BTW, theres a bunch of regular folks on here that are A-1. Hopefully, if anyone even reads this, they will understand whom my ramblings WAS and WASN'T about.

I understand your grief... But don't let a few whiners change your focus on a good thing.

The forum you created is a wonderful opportunity for Fiero owners to help, share problems AND bicker.. yes sometimes people like to vent.

Most of the flame wars I've seen are harmless. AND.. sometimes is just funny too.

I think your Forum is just experiencing growing pains.. Don't let the tattletales get you down. If someone gets mad at a thread, and threatens to leave, then let them. We all know they'll cool down and come back later.

Most all the problem people will eventually get the hint and settle down...

My 2 cents.

EDIT: If its really that much of a problem, how about a temporary "suspension" of that member who is causing problems, too cool off...

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1988 Formula 2.8L V6 5 speed Getrag
(Runs smooth, shifts crisp, red and shiny all over!)

As you know, I'm one of your biggest supporters. Now might be the time to implement that "points system" you talked about before.

I know you don't want to boot members but it may be time for you to remember how nice it was for a while after you publicly booted Ed.

If I'm not out of line, I'd like to make a couple suggestions before you shut down the Forum that we have come to depend on:

1) "Boot a few to save the group" ... I'd suggest that if you boot 4 or 5 trouble makers it would be better for the rest of us than shutting down the Forum & more than 4000 of us.

2) "Would they say THAT in front of their Mother?" .. Don't allow anyone to have more that ONE Screen name & make everyone identify themselves by Real Names in their profile. Some of these people wouldn't say some of the things they are saying if they couldn't remain anonymous. There is no reason that someone needs more than one I.D. if they are not here to cause trouble.

For what it's worth, this is my only I.D. & My name (& location) is in my Profile.

I recommend that you simply limit the number of posts a person can make each day. Then people would need to really think about what was important to say each day. I know it would put a severe hole into some people's lives but they could learn to do other things.

I guess it really depends on what the focus of the Forum is. I re-read the intro to see if there was some guidance there but basically it says anything goes (except racial comments, foul language, and spam). We have some of the first, plenty of the second and some of the third. It also notes that we should use our own good judgement and obviously there are many times when that doens't happen.

Cliff, I think that you should re-think the guidelines that you have for the Forum and address issues that have come to try your patience as the Forum has grown. Things are obviously different now than when you started it up. Come up with a "Terms of Use" statement then shut the Forum down for a couple of days except for the "Terms of Use" (TOU) statement. When you open it back up, advise everyone that breaking the TOU will result in xxxxx (whatever you feel is appropriate). As Ogre mentioned in a recent thread, route all new users to the TOU page before they can begin posting. I recommend that after each xxth post that current members be routed to the TOU statement again to remind us what we have agreed to.

I would hate to see anything happen to the Forum, especially the Fiero sections (Tech, Fiero Chat, the Mall, and now the PFA). I find lots of useful information to help me work on my Fiero, I can occassionally help other members solve problems with their cars, and I have bought quite a few items thru the Mall.

First I would like to flame myself a bit. Threatening with closing the forum is wrong. Plain and simple. Here I am, complaining that only a few people can ruin it for the rest, then I single-handedly decide that I'll shut it down if nothing changes. That can't be right, can it? The problem is that I (like most other people) can't see the forum apart from myself. When the forum is attacked, I take it personally. When I'm attacked, I bring the forum into the fight. And I have a few more weapons to fight with (like closing/deleting threads, banning people). That ain't good. I think.

Second, I sometimes forget I'm kinda like a high profile member. I sometimes would like to rant like any other person on here. But the problem is that my rants are taken much more seriously - especially when I post them in the "Announcement" section. Like it's something really important. It always scares the sh!t out of me when I post my rant and an hour later I see all the replies I get. I'm always going like "whoa!".

I remember when Cliff finally implemented smiley face things (we used to have to link them). About that time he gave us the edit button.

I remember when O/T section was added, the real-time chat, and eventually Private Messages.

I remember when Stimpy made his debut . There are lots of folks that have left, good folks. (batboy, Monkeyman, Songman, Patrick and lots and lots of others)

You don't see many people that were registered in '99 anymore. I have stuck around, been in a fight or two, took a break, then returned. (I always visited, but stopped posting for a while).

They call it a Bully Pulpit (a terrific platform from which to persuasively advocate an agenda)