B17 crashed today (Page 2/3)
williegoat OCT 21, 09:26 PM
He has been a pilot and instructor, both military and professional, fixed wing and helo, his entire life and is in his seventies. When it comes to aviation, I trust him.
Hudini OCT 21, 11:02 PM
Flaps add induced drag and, more importantly, lift at slow speed. Crashing short of the runway with flaps up is self critiquing.

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williegoat OCT 21, 11:15 PM

quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Flaps add induced drag but, more importantly, lift at slow speed. Crashing short of the runway with flaps up is self critiquing.


Is there any reason or circumstance where he might want to keep the flaps up?
I thought landing without flaps sounded odd, until my conversation today. Now, I wonder.

I just don't want to think an experienced pilot would make such a mistake.

The only things I have flown were a couple of sailplanes and one parachute.

The conversation stemmed from a discussion of how the human mind reacts when things go wrong. He told me of a student who reacted successfully, but unconventionally; followed by his own story. That is when I brought up the B-17.

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williegoat OCT 22, 12:32 AM
This article: https://www.aopa.org/news-a...of-b-17-crash-emerge
suggests that he lost two engines and never made it above 500 ft.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 10-22-2019).]

maryjane OCT 22, 01:48 AM
Say what you want and maybe I'm going out on a limb here but I'm blaming gravity.
williegoat OCT 22, 11:21 AM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Say what you want and maybe I'm going out on a limb here but I'm blaming gravity.


I'm sure that gravity played a role, but I don't recall any B-17's crashing on Obama's watch.
Hudini OCT 22, 04:35 PM
If there were two feathered props then you would think the tower would have noticed. It was daylight. We will need to wait for the investigation results to know for certain. I wonder if the tower has a video camera?
williegoat OCT 22, 11:09 PM

quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

I wonder if the tower has a video camera?


I have read speculation that there should be some amateur video, given the nature of the event.
I read an article today in "Flying" that also suggested that the flaps could have been up to reduce drag.

Because of my career in trucking safety, I have read more accident investigation reports, and seen more video and photos than I would have preferred, from law enforcement, engineers, coroners and amateurs. I always want to know what went wrong.

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rogergarrison OCT 23, 04:28 PM
Lowered flaps will give you more lift at low speeds...but they also give you more drag. He may have been too low with not enough power to use them. Being down on power by much, I can see the pilot leaving flaps up to try and keep his speed up. I have made approaches at higher than normal speeds many times without using flaps in singles. Usually this was as a convenience to airport traffic to get me on the ground faster and out of the way of other traffic. I would come in hotter, and pull power and dump flaps at last minute and drop right on the runway. No reason not to do this if you only need 2,000 feet of an 11,0000 foot runway. Towers love you for it at big commercial airports like Dulles, DFW and John Glenn. Id have to read an actual B17 flight manual for emergency procedures to know if leaving them retracted would be ok or not on this particular plane.
Hudini OCT 24, 05:50 AM
I can understand leaving the flaps up to a certain point. However, if you hit the approach lights 1000’ feet short of the runway then the flaps in the up position are the proverbial teets on a boar. Useless decorations. Also consider the aircraft had enough forward momentum to continue up to the deice tank.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 10-24-2019).]