"The group identity game.. (Page 1/5)
2.5 SEP 17, 12:21 PM
..ends in blood"


link to share:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7e_BaXU3mA

We must be at least a third of the way by now. I wonder if we will turn around. Hopefully we start teaching our kids reality.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-17-2021).]

Jonesy SEP 19, 10:48 AM
Yeah I'v watched more interviews and lectures from Peterson than i can count. I like him. I don't always 100% agree with some of his ideas, but most of them are logical and sound.

I defiantly agree with him about identity politics being dangerous though..

I personally don't identify with any group or ideology. None of them are 100% correct, or socially viable in the real world.

I focus on the individual, and their actions.

Try to pigeon hole me into any type of group or ideology, and ill prove ya wrong every time.

It's like I'v stated before in other topics. The Right and the Left need one another, the core values of each are what keep society balanced and thriving. As they keep each other in check.

Unfortunately, thanks to things like social media, the most radical members from each side tend to have the loudest voices.

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 09-19-2020).]

Boondawg SEP 19, 01:12 PM

quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:

Yeah I'v watched more interviews and lectures from Peterson than i can count. I like him. I don't always 100% agree with some of his ideas, but most of them are logical and sound.

I defiantly agree with him about identity politics being dangerous though..

I personally don't identify with any group or ideology. None of them are 100% correct, or socially viable in the real world.

I focus on the individual, and their actions.

Try to pigeon hole me into any type of group or ideology, and ill prove ya wrong every time.

It's like I'v stated before in other topics. The Right and the Left need one another, the core values of each are what keep society balanced and thriving. As they keep each other in check.

Unfortunately, thanks to things like social media, the most radical members from each side tend to have the loudest voices.




The above makes you a target of ridicule & scorn by the “brain-trust” that swears by individuality, as long as we all do it together in exactly the same way.

How do I know?
I agree with you!

Jonesy SEP 19, 09:23 PM

quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


The above makes you a target of ridicule & scorn by the “brain-trust” that swears by individuality, as long as we all do it together in exactly the same way.

How do I know?
I agree with you!



One of the great things about being an individual.. The majority of the time, you don't give a damn what other people think. They can think whatever they want, its what they do that I'm watching out for.

Individuals make life much more interesting, both good and bad. Group identity is so base and boring, everything has to be the same, nothing new or original comes from it. Those who subscribe to group mentality tend to fear change, and new ideas, which unfortunately is a natural part of being human.

maryjane SEP 19, 09:31 PM

quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:


One of the great things about being an individual.. The majority of the time, you don't give a damn what other people think. They can think whatever they want, its what they do that I'm watching out for.

Individuals make life much more interesting, both good and bad. Group identity is so base and boring, everything has to be the same, nothing new or original comes from it. Those who subscribe to group mentality tend to fear change, and new ideas, which unfortunately is a natural part of being human.



And there it is..
In order to become offended, one must first CHOOSE to be offended.
Boondawg SEP 19, 09:43 PM

quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:
One of the great things about being an individual.. The majority of the time, you don't give a damn what other people think. They can think whatever they want, its what they do that I'm watching out for.

Individuals make life much more interesting, both good and bad. Group identity is so base and boring, everything has to be the same, nothing new or original comes from it. Those who subscribe to group mentality tend to fear change, and new ideas, which unfortunately is a natural part of being human.



Wise words.
But you're not my first.


quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
And there it is..
In order to become offended, one must first CHOOSE to be offended.



You keep reminding me of that, and I keep hearing you remind me of that, but it always falls apart for me (much like poetry) when applied in real-time.
But I do recognize the wisdom, and i am trying.

I just can't seem to get past retribution.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-19-2020).]

Jonesy SEP 21, 10:33 AM

quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
I just can't seem to get past retribution.




Oh retribution (or Vengeance in more extreme situations) can be extremely satisfying, no doubt. But only in the short term, the moment it happens, then the satisfaction quickly fades. I usually try to attempt to make someone think. Sometimes if you can just make someone actually think instead of react, people tend to adjust their behavior or idea's in the long run once they take the time to actually think about it. I always find that more satisfying. It can work in reverse as well, make you think yourself, realize error's in your thinking and adjust them. Helps one grow in knowledge and wisdom. Doesn't always work of course, as some people are so clouded by emotion, that critical thinking is nearly impossible for them. If one subscribes to group mentality, its even harder, as they are trained, not to think, but to tow the line for said group. Many people subscribe to group mentality without even realizing it. So it can be difficult.

You may not get that quick high from that "gotcha moment" through retribution, but in the long run, you can potentially improve yourself and others if your patient enough.

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 09-21-2020).]

Boondawg SEP 21, 11:09 AM

quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:

I usually try to attempt to make someone think.




I used to believe that was possible.
I don’t anymore.

In my experience, people would rather die than admit they may have been wrong, let alone change.

I get the feeling introspection is incredibly painful for some.

They will prop-up the ridiculous rather then admit vulnerability in their understanding.

Mores the pitty.

P.S. I am also “people”.
maryjane SEP 21, 12:19 PM

quote
Originally posted by Jonesy:


Oh retribution (or Vengeance in more extreme situations) can be extremely satisfying, no doubt. But only in the short term, the moment it happens, then the satisfaction quickly fades. I usually try to attempt to make someone think. Sometimes if you can just make someone actually think instead of react, people tend to adjust their behavior or idea's in the long run once they take the time to actually think about it.




Therein lies the problem. Attempting to force someone to 'think' is tantamount to forcing them to comply with an idea or ideal one has and wants another to adopt and comply with and it's rarely an effective strategy or couse of action. For me, it's more effective to simply provide information and those who wish to consider it will, and those who do not will not. Not to say I am always able to maintain that course of action but it is the least stressful and aggravating way to go about conversing with adults. Forcing ideas/ideals is how we interact with children, forcing them to either learn or suffer the consequences, whether it be a failing grade or receiving punishment for bad behavior.

Jonesy SEP 21, 01:42 PM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


Therein lies the problem. Attempting to force someone to 'think' is tantamount to forcing them to comply with an idea or ideal one has and wants another to adopt and comply with and it's rarely an effective strategy or couse of action. For me, it's more effective to simply provide information and those who wish to consider it will, and those who do not will not. Not to say I am always able to maintain that course of action but it is the least stressful and aggravating way to go about conversing with adults. Forcing ideas/ideals is how we interact with children, forcing them to either learn or suffer the consequences, whether it be a failing grade or receiving punishment for bad behavior.



I disagree, I never said anything about forcing someone to do anything. Or forcing someone to comply with an idea or ideology at all. I believe you misinterpret what i was saying, and you have a bit of a contradiction in your statement there. If you believe talking with someone and giving your perspective is "forcing" them to think and comply, wouldn't your idea of providing information and hoping they consider it, be the same thing? Providing information is the same thing as giving your perspective, how is one forceful and the other not? Maybe the word "reflect" instead of "think" would have been a better word to use. It's not about changing someones mind, or "winning" an argument or debate. It's simply, as you said, provide information by talking civilly (even if they are not), and hope that makes them reflect hard about their idea or position. Trying to change someone mind on just about anything is nearly impossible, and is not an effective strategy at all, i agree. You also don't have to be, nor are likely to be present when said person actually calms down, sits and really reflects about their... whatever.. Most humans tend to do that when they are alone with their own thoughts. And your likely never to hear the person admit they changed their mind, or even modified it, but you see it in their behavior.

Trying to force anyone to think anything is silly, trying to change someones mind during a heated topic of conversation is impossible. But if you can, at the very least, get them to later reflect over their "whatever", then, you at least have a chance, that the person will slowly, sometimes painfully so, adjust, modify, or in rare cases, even change their way of thinking to something better. Does that mean they will just flip and come over to another persons ideas? No of course not, and hopefully not, as that's not the goal, plus who's to say that other "whatever" is right either? But if it brings two opposing forces closer together, even if only slightly, I would call that progress..

Humans in general fear change, and are painfully slow to evolve, patients is the key.

Baby steps! It's better than nothing, and considering how humans are, as i stated above, that's the best one can hope for.