Warranties should not be voided if customers take bikes to independent dealers or in (Page 1/2)
blackrams JUN 27, 09:22 AM
Warranties should not be voided if customers take bikes to independent dealers or install non-factory parts.

On June 23, 2022, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission took a big new step in the right-to-repair battle. The FTC is taking action against Harley-Davidson, as well as MWE Investments, the company that makes Westinghouse outdoor generators, due to what the FTC says are illegal restrictions on customers’ right to repair their products.

A big part of this complaint is warranty language from both companies that say the warranty is void if customers choose to use independent dealers to either perform repairs or supply parts. According to the warranties as currently written, use of aftermarket parts and taking your bike to any place other than an authorized Harley dealer for service could void the warranty—which the FTC says is illegal.

What happens now? The FTC is ordering both Harley and Westinghouse to fix their warranty language by removing illegal terms that restrict a customer’s right to repair the items they’ve purchased from the company. Another problem the FTC discovered is that Harley, in particular, did not fully disclose all warranty terms within a single document. Instead, it said, customers were asked to contact an authorized dealer for full details—which is a violation of the FTC’s existing Disclosure Rule.

I'm glad to see this and I fully expect it to be challenged in court but, this is good for the consumer in general. But, there will be those who push the limits of this, there always is.

Rams
maryjane JUN 27, 09:34 AM
John Deere is facing similar litigation.
blackrams JUN 27, 09:56 AM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

John Deere is facing similar litigation.



Yep, that's my understanding also. JD's warranty limits/restrictions are the main reason I bought and am now using a Kubota tractor instead of JD Green. While JD and Kubota's warranty were both 5 years, JD required me to have JD service the tractor every year for the length of the warranty to maintain it and, that service was going to cost me in excess of $400. a year with no guarantee that service fee would not increase. I left the JD dealership and went straight to Kubota. The Kubota was price competitive and had the same capabilities. As some may already know, I like Orange better anyway.

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Rams

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.........

OldsFiero JUN 28, 06:50 AM
Why are John Deere's green?

So they can hide in the grass when the Internationals come around.
maryjane JUN 28, 09:30 AM

quote
Originally posted by OldsFiero:

Why are John Deere's green?

So they can hide in the grass when the Internationals CNH come around.



There is no International or IH. It's Case New Holland and Case IH now.
Raydar JUN 28, 09:40 AM

quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Yep, that's my understanding also. JD's warranty limits/restrictions are the main reason I bought and am now using a Kubota tractor instead of JD Green. While JD and Kubota's warranty were both 5 years, JD required me to have JD service the tractor every year for the length of the warranty to maintain it and, that service was going to cost me in excess of $400. a year with no guarantee that service fee would not increase.



We've heard horror stories about JD. Not only are you required to use JD dealers for repairs, parts are frequently unavailable. I've heard more than one story about equipment sitting at the dealer for months waiting on some part or another. One dealer suggested that the quickest way to "get back in business" was for the customer to trade in the "under repair" unit and buy a new one. I don't think that I would have accepted that offer, although the person in question did. I hope the dealer made it worth his trouble.

Does lemon law apply to farm equipment, and the like?

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-28-2022).]

fierofool JUN 28, 11:25 AM
I'm surprised there is a new ruling for this. There has been a long-standing ruling in the automobile industry that takes the same stance. Seems like it would apply across the board to all consumer products.

Long, long ago, my sister had a new Ford Falcon. The heater core exploded on her way to work. She got it towed to a Ford dealer near her work. They refused to fix it because she bought it from another Ford dealer on the opposite side of Atlanta. Long story short, after contacting Ford Motors, the dealer was ordered to repair the car, including replacing the damaged interior, plus provide a rental car for her at no charge.

Regarding John Deere, I thought they got a court ruling that agreed with them that the PCM and its software were proprietary and that no one else was allowed to access it. I had read that automobile manufacturers were seeking to gain the same ruling on their PCMs.
82-T/A [At Work] JUN 28, 01:30 PM
I'm torn on this ruling... specifically, the part about aftermarket parts. I think generally, you should absolutely be allowed to take your car to any dealership you want, or any repair shop that you want, so long as they are certified to work on that specific car.

There's a few thoughts on this: What happens to a vehicle (or in this case motorcycle) that is damaged during repair... as in, the mechanic does not know what they are doing and strips threads, causes a lean condition that burns a valve, or some other repair issue? Is all of that now covered under warranty? Can the repair shop be like... oh sorry, ****ed up. And then it gets towed to the dealership where everything is covered? I assume that warranty work should only be covered under service centers that are authorized to actually do it.


And then on aftermarket parts. I think owners should be allowed to buy upgrades for their vehicles / bikes, but there has to be a limitation when it's under warranty.

Some thoughts on this as well: What happens if someone installs a performance part which causes the engine to perform outside of specifications, causing a lean or rich condition which can damage the engine, or perhaps causes the engine to throw a rod or trash a bearing due to RPM limitations being removed?


I'm all about freedom of ownership, but I do understand this somewhat from the point of the manufacturer.


.


All that aside... it irks me when companies like John Deere try to sue to prevent people from modifying the ECM programming. If you buy a John Deere tractor... you now have the right to do anything you want with it... whether that's to blow it up with thermite, or go farm with it. But the company has no authority to tell you what you can and cannot do with the ECM programming. Likewise, I understand it's intellectual property... but an ECM tuner should ALSO be allowed to reprogram them... but it does become a legal question when they are then selling a flashing tool that HAS a modified version of the ECM code from the manufacturer... I would see that also as being illegal. Instead... reflashing the values and inputs for the ECM is a different story.
Raydar JUN 28, 03:00 PM
I read something a few weeks ago that seemed to indicate that manufacturer procedures and parts were proprietary.
This directly conflicts with what I'm reading above. (It may have applied just to electronic stuff, such as iPhones and such.)

But according to law, the only time a replacement part (aftermarket, or otherwise) can void a warranty, is if it can be proven that that replacement part caused a failure that the manufacturer would then be responsible for. Been that way for years, at least concerning cars.

To the present day...
Many manufacturers have their PCMs locked down. Especially Dodge. The way that hot rodders are getting around that is by buying and swapping in entire new PCMs that are not locked. That way, they can modify whatever they want to, about the tune. They then swap the stock PCM back in, if they have to take the car in for warranty work. (I have a hard time believing that the dealer can't tell that this has happened - if by no other method, than comparing runtime hours or miles in the car with runtime hours/miles in the PCM.) But I'm not in a position to actually know how - or how well - it works.
Now... if you change something in the tune that damages your engine, and they can prove it, I don't think that the manufacturer should be responsible, in any way, for the repairs.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-28-2022).]

2.5 JUN 28, 03:31 PM

quote
Originally posted by OldsFiero:

Why are John Deere's green?

So they can hide in the grass when the Internationals come around.



Color of money too.