In my never ending quest for information which will eventually allow me to shift gears without swearing, I had a look at a most interesting site.

I had heard of V-8 Archie before, but as I'm not quite ready for a V8 powered Fiero, I hadn't paid any attention to his website. However, I just discovered that he also has some tips and tricks posted there.

Check out http://www.v8archie.com/archism.htm

There is some great advice here regarding Fiero clutches and their setup. I'd be interested to hear what you guys have to say about his views on bleeding, etc.

Great find Patrick. I allways bypassed this site for the same reasons.

Allready knew about the no pump rule, but the procedure for bleeding the slave cylinder is a new one for me.

Guess I'll get intimate with the car this weekend.

I dont know Patrick, I read about that bleeding procedure in a magazine a long time ago. Everytime I tried the last part, where you push the rod all the way in then tighten the bleeder, it made the clutch worse. I would have to pump it a few times to make the rod come back out again. I do basically the same procedure except for that the last part because then I would have to pump it, and thats a nono.

I know you guys have already put a good amount of fluid into the clutch systems, but have any of you purged out all the old fluid when you replaced the slave?

I had a problem with brakes where I kept eating master cyls, and a couple slaves, untill I got ALL the old fluid out. Turned out that when the first master went it contaminated the whole system with metal flakes which would promptly eat away the new cyl's seals.

It doesn't take much of that either. I thought all the bleeding was enough. it wasn't because allot of fluid get held in lines and slaves, and then the crud works it's way back thru the system. I replaced 3 masters before I figured out what was killing them.

seem like the easiest way to do this with the clutch would be to pull the piston, and just keep pushing fluid thru till it runs absolutly the same as it goes in.

Then rinse out the slave with some fresh fluid. You could squirt it in with a rubber "ear wash" bulb. and then put a soft rag over a wood/plastic dowel to get the last bits.

The main reason I suspect they tell you not to pump the pedal is because most people do it too fast. and that can pull air in around the seals. (air flows better than oil.) If you must ever "pump up" a system do it really slowly. imagine cartoon slo-mo, and go even slower.

The clutch is basically the same design as an old "single master" brake system, but even todays "dual master" brake systems can inhale air if you pump them up too fast. The returning piston can create quite a high vacuum spike in the system.

Interestingly enough, I found that I could not bleed my system using the standard "step on the pedal, open the valve, close the valve, let go of the pedal" routine. I found that this always drew more air into the system at the slave end. I finally had to devise a method of pumping fluid into the system from an exterior source. I had to force fluid in, as opposed to having the fluid drawn in (during the pedal's return stroke), if that makes any sense.

Wherever the air's getting in though, it's now getting worse. I'll have to buy a rebuild kit and try Paul's double piston trick.

And the "hot start" problems are getting worse, and my balljoints are shot, and the car is due to be smog tested, and... :(

Hey Patrick, my snis looking to sell his Ford Festiva.
Interested? HEHE

Ive spent the last few hours pondering the clutch question. Ive come to the conclusion that the main culprit in premature slave failure is dirt. Everytime the clutch is engaged and disengaged, it not only displaces and replaces fluid in the slave, but also air in the section of the slave ahead of the piston. If you happen to use your clutch when there is alot of dust floating around your engine compartment, you are sure to suck some in, that is if your dust boot is torn. Once I remember cleaning my slave, there was alot of the red dust common to where I live inside.

The original dust boot is a bellows type design that doesnt allow outside air into the slave. It expands when engaged and contracts when disengaged. Unfortunately, this boot is not included all the slave rebuild kits Ive seen. I havent seen anything like it I could use as a substitute either. I guess Ill have to just periodically clean all the dirt out of there.

Ya, ya, Motorhead. Keep teasing me and I won't help you with your headers any more. :)

The clutch slave is a non throw adjustable piece of equipment. There is a bleed hole at the end of the bore, when the piston passes this hole no more pressure therefore no more throw regardless of rod length. The most common cause of short throw is excess slop in the pedal to master cyl. Make sure that you have the steel pedal and that there is no play in the push rod from the pedal to the master cyl. Removing the slop and getting all the air out the system will usually bring clutch engagment from 1" from the floor to 1" from the top

i dont know if this helping any but i came across a web site that had an interesting and differant view on the whole clutch problem. this guy was looking at the clutch pedal itself, he says some of the cars have a problem with bending the pedal arm, where the pushrod would attach, i presume kinda sketchy. anyway just thought i would throw in my .02 oh yeah the site! its a long one
www.franken.de/users/dagobah/luke/fieroidx.html, under parts and problems. i would assume that the guy likes star wars i dont know

Regarding the pedal itself, some years had an aluminium pedal. This pedal does twist after a while and you lose a good amount of pushrod travel. There is a steel replacement ($30). This pedal solves a lot of problems. Check your old pedal with a magnet, if it doesn't stick replace it

I've read all the posts and was wondering if all you guys have the same chatter problem i have or does it not fully release. I posted a post named clutch chatter. sound familiar?

No, in my case I've never experienced clutch chatter (in the manner you described in your other post).

Other than not disengaging properly, the only other problem I have is that sometimes (very rarely) when I engage the clutch, it appears as if the clutch is grabbing and then releasing back and forth very quickly. This causes the whole drivetrain to shudder rather violently. Luckily this only occurs once in a blue moon, thus leaving me free to fret about the other 2001 things that need to be attended to on my Fiero.:)

I brought this thread to the top of the list so that Harry (and any others it might help) could find it again.

Have a method for bleeding that usually works on un-cooperative bubbles; leave the bleeder valve cracked, just slightly, overnight.
Another portion of the system that can get overlooked is the master cylinder actuator rod pivot point,I used a custom fabbed silicon bronze bushing,helps a little in the travel department,feels neat too.
The shifter mechanisms are also pretty sloppy and could benefit(mine did)from a dose of nylon washers of various thickness'(hardware store)and some needle roller bearings too(came with plastic bearings) as I recall.I started out at the gearbox,then took apart the console,was real crisp/notchy feeling when I was done.

I dug down and found it Orge. :)

Just thought I bring it back to the top ,before it get's lost forever.Don't wont to loose this on ,since we sill have questions comming about clutch problems.

I've had clutch hydraulic problems on my 86 4 cyl, 5 speed since the day I assembled it from a basket case. Clutch would disengage right at the floor. Finally wouldn't disengage at all. Put on a new NAPA master cyl and this seemed to work, but after about 9 months, the same problem came up. Replaced the M/C with a new GM part, but in about 6 weeks I noticed that the clutch pedal would bleed to the floor with light pedal pressure. I then thought about changing the brake fluid to something slightly more viscous, so that it would seal better. Removed the brake fluid and installed some Mobil 5-30 Synthetic engine oil. What a difference. The clutch now disengages about two inches from the floor, every time. Best thing that I have done for my clutch hydraulics. Will see how it works in the winter, just put it in a couple of months ago.

The thread that will never die...

Now that's the most interesting, simple idea that I've ever read here. And I'm just positive that Ogre or someone will shoot it down!

Wow, if this really works, David, you'll have a lot new friends.

er...Is there a problem with the clutch system on a Fiero?

I like the sound of the last dude's idea too. MIne has more of a problem when it is cold but still is not great at it's best. Is there metal expansion / contraction in poor or low tolerance machining here or is the cold related to goop in or on the throw out mechanism that does not free up untill warm?

Hey ogre? whut on the synthetic idea???

Ozzy

The actual problem may be something different.
I had a problem with the clutch not disengaging, so like a good fiero owner i rebuilt the master and replaced the slave (Heck it is right by the exhaust)
I then bled the system, and no air in the line (i did all those wacky things listed above).
After insisting that I did the job right I looking into other possible solutions.
Looking closer at the clutch pedal, I noticed that the shaft on the pedal that connects to the master cylinder was worn away significantly. I then pressed the piece out and turned a new shaft on a lathe and pressed it in. After that everything was peachy. My drag was very minimal initially, but this seemed to help although it was only making another 1/4 to 1/2 inch gain in play. I ahvent had to blled the clutch since so i know this made a difference.

Actually, since boiling isn't a problem, oil isn't bad. I'd use ATF tho. It's more plastic friendly and doesn't change viscosity much over wide ranges of temp. ((I also us ATF in hydraulic jacks. A jack filled with ATF works year round.))

So Ogre, what do you think? Do you have any opinion as to whether or not there would be better sealing at the seals of the master and slave cylinders with ATF than with brake fluid?

This is an important development. Why hasn't anyone else suggested this?

I use hydraulic jack oil,it's about a 9(ATF is around 15) on the viscosity rating,works great in Koni shocks too.

This reminds me of a 280z I worked on. The owner had filled the clutch resevoir with auto trans fluid. He thought "hydralic clutch" meant it used hydralic fluid. It was a mess because the brake fluid wasnt flushed.

Actually, I had originaly thought of using ATF, but decided that I would give this Mobil stuff a try. Both will probably work well, and I would give the nod to ATF in cold weather, but I still wanted to try the Mobil stuff. Guess I like Mobil's support of CART racing.

Man these clutches are something else. My dad and I had a problem with our 84 not disengaging. We ended up with a new napa slave cylinder and a custom rod betweet the slave and tranny. HeHe, We gutted a craftsman phillips head screwdriver. We cut the shaft to about 1/2 inch longer than the original, made some 'fine tuning' adjustments , and rounded out the ends on the shaft. Problem solved. I think that we will try the oil trick tho, that sounds pretty neat.

I don't know how much better sealing ATF would be. I do see a couple other advantages.

1. ATF doesn't draw water like DOT3. That should reduce or even eliminate corosion.

2. Using ATF would allow you to spread a bit of lubriplate on the cylinderwalls. Push the piston all the way in then smear in a bit of the lubriplate. That should bring piston/cylinder wear to about zilch.

The only problem from greasing the cyl walls would be if the dust boot is in bad shape.... the grease would hold dirt. On the other hand you could just squirt a bit of ATF or some other light oil into the slave bore once in a while. ATF tends to wash dirt out.

OK,let me get this straight- It is alright to use ATF or engine oil in the hydraulic clutch system? I thought. . . Well, never mind, I wont think right now.

Any light oil would work. The thing to watch out for is that all the DOT3 is removed. DOT3 doesn't mix with things.

Allot of the reason DOT 3 is used is that it's nearly as thin as water. Its resistance to boiling is irrelevant in this application. Problems with DOT3 are same as in the brakes.... It draws water, and it doesn't really lube well.

Because the lines are so thin. You want a realy thin oil that won't gell when it gets cold. ATF is pretty thin and is plastic friendly. Other very thin oils that wont ruin seals would work.

Do I fully recomend people just go and do this? no. you have to have a pretty good understanding of what can cause you trouble doing this. For one thing you need to get all the DOT3 out. That means pulling appart the slave and wiping it down. You should do the same to the master. wipe the cyl walls wit the oil you are using and reassemble. Since oil on the surfaces will collect and hold dirt you also have to make sure the dust boots are in good shape, or periodically squirt some fresh oil in the slaves open end to keep it lubed and wash out the light stuff. The master, being open in the pasenger compartment, should be much problem.

I was anxious to try using ATF in my clutch hydraulic system. I flushed the DOT3 out of the system the best I could. I was quite surprised at the colour of the fluid in the master cylinder. When I stirred it up it was practically black. This cylinder is only two years old, so I hope this is not an indication that it's worn badly already.

Anyway, after adding the ATF, my first impression is...(drum roll)... feels real good.

Now, I'm not going to get too excited yet, because the real test is whether or not it will continue to feel this way for a few days or weeks or months. If it appears that air does not get sucked past the seals into the system as easily now, I will be one happy Fiero owner.

Ogre, I removed as much of the DOT3 as possible without disassembling the slave cylinder. Although the DOT3 may not actually mix with the ATF, would that necessarily cause any problem in this situation?

I have another question relevant to this current topic (sort of). When I bought this Fiero, there was red fluid in the brake master cylinder. This may sound really dumb, but is there such a thing as red brake fluid? Or did the previous owner of this car use ATF in the brake hydraulic system? The brakes have always worked fine and I've never had to add fluid to the brakes during the 2 ½ years that I've owned this car. Comments?

Red brake fluid? Not any DOT3 I've every seen.

Pack when I stored allot of used parts, I tried putting ATF into the brake parts to keep them from rusting.... It didn't work out well. I had alwyas thought it was the DOT3 reacting with the old oil. Maybe you flushed more thru than i did and got enough out. Glad its working well for you.

Hello everyone... I have an 84 SE up here in upstate NY. Been having the clutch pedal problem and was preparing to bleed system tomorrow... i like the idea of using ATF in the line instead of dot3. Anyway I'll let you know how it goes, and add input if i can .

Sorry for bringing this mega thread to the top again but I just had to add my coupla cents worth after dissasembling the entire clutch hydrualics today.

After reading the above and beginning to experience some of these problems myself I decided to tear into it with the ATF replacement and using PAUL's idea of the extra seal.

First I pulled the master off and opened it up. Damn! I'm surprised the thing was working at all. Does MUD work as a hydraulic fluid?! Thats what the gunk in there looked like. The spring had like crystalized and had broken in 2 places. I could break it with my fingers! So I started about cleaning and de-gunking that thing to see if it was salvagable. I only purchased the slave rebuild kit. I cleaned it and lightly honed the bore with some 600 wet & dry cut by half, to remove pits in the wall of the cylinder. Re-assembled and lubed with clean ATF and fresh grease in the dust cap. I gravity flushed the lines with new ATF to remove the ****. And there was a lot o' **** believe me! I repeated the same process with the slave, placing the new piston in front and the old one behind after removing the guide. Boot is in good shape so I put new grease in to help prevent dirt and grime entering the slave.

After putting it all back together and bleeding of the air it feels pretty good. I only appear to have picked up around 1/2" of pedal though. Although it feels generally tighter I would like a little more pedal.
What if I rotate the clutch lever (on the tranny) about 1/8" or whatever is available without comprimising full clutch engagement,toward the slave to increase the throw?

Ozzy

Hey Ozzy, don't apologize for bringing this thread to the top. It's always been one of the most popular threads here because so many of us have problems with the clutches in our Fieros.

I'm not exactly sure what it is that you want to try to do with the clutch lever, but I can be pretty confident in telling you right now that it won't work. Any changes that are made in the relationship (distance) between the slave cylinder and the clutch lever result in NO difference in clutch travel. It will NOT increase the throw. This is because the hydraulics automatically compensate for it. I realize that it is difficult to remember everything in this thread, but all this has been covered here before.

My guess is that IF your master cylinder is working properly, and that's a big IF, you still have air in the system. It's this air being compressed when you step on the pedal that is resulting in the insufficient clutch lever movement. Everyone has their own method for bleeding the system, but you gotta be sure you're getting ALL the air out. Using a different fluid and an extra slave seal will not help otherwise.

It's still too early for me to declare that my clutch problem has been cured completely, but replacing the DOT3 in my system with ATF has made one HUGE difference. It continues to disengage properly, and driving my Fiero is now more of a pleasure than it's ever been.

Hey Patrick.

Yeah I kinda figured that the self compensating thing was gonna come into play after I got thru the last post.

As to the bleeding...I bled that thing pretty good. I keep a clear hose attached to the bleeder nimple so that it lesens the chance of sucking air back in to the slave due to straight fluid in the hose. And I kept a really close watch on the reservoir to make sure the obvious didn't happen. Still its possible there may be some air back in the lines as opposed to sitting in the slave.

Hey, I'm still wondering how the system is compensating for the additional piston and seal...If the volume of the slave is decreased should not the movement be more or is the master valve system doing this???
Still a little confused here.

Ozzy