If you have a haynes, look at page 190.
Examine(4.5)! Does anyones clutch master cylinder pushrod look like this? what is that between #12 (retaining washer) and the very end of the pushrod? I don't have one on mine??? The book doesn't explain this!!!
So I inserted a lock washer there. The lock washer must be a little bit smaller than the retaining washer. Insert the pushrod back into the clutch master cylinder. Then attach back on the clutch pedal assembly. Bleed system as normal. End of story.............

In my own defence, I'd just like to say that I'm far from the only one who has hydraulic problems with their Fiero's clutch. I just have a tendency to discuss it here more often than most. But since you've also referred to me as a "gentleman", I'll let you go on that one.

Pat, I gotta say that your first post made no sense to me at all. I couldn't understand what the heck removing your clutch pedal assembly had to do with getting air in the system. After reading your other posts, well, I'm afraid that it still doesn't make any sense to me. Except that maybe...

Maybe putting that lock washer in where you did prevents the rod, and therefore the master cylinder piston, from returning as far back in the cylinder. This would stop the piston and it's seal from returning to the most worn part of the bore. Therefore, the seal could do it's job better and no air would enter into the system there. This is basically what I think that Paul's idea of the extra slave piston does. That and the fact that it also adds an extra seal. This is all conjecture of course, especially considering that I'm still not completely sure of what the heck you were trying to describe.

As far as the ATF transfusion goes, I think it's one hell of a good idea. Except for the one relapse that I reported, my clutch is working better than it ever has. I still think David should get some kind of a reward for being the first one here to suggest the use of a different fluid other than brake fluid in the clutch hydraulic system.

I examine my clutch pedal assembly. I took off the rubber boot at the end of the clutch master cylinder. Then I removed the C-clip. While leaving the pushrod still attached to the clutch pedal, examine to see if the plunger (piston) extends past the cylinder bore. If this happens it allows air in the system. By simply pulling apart a lock washer and pushing it over the pushrod between the retaining washer and the very end of the pushrod. Then twisting the lock washer back to original shape. this allows the clutch pedal to be depressed without losing pressure or letting in air.
basically when I would build pressure without letting the clutch pedal totally released the pressure would build up. BUT, when I let the clutch pedal return FULLY released ALL pressure was completely lost.
At first I inserted a long bolt w/nuts to prevent the pedal from fully returning. I never lost pressure and it was never a problem to shift. But then I redesigned the pushrod in the clutch master cylinder for a smoother solution. I think that you (patrick) and I have had the same problem with our clutch pressure. Believe me I have fought with this problem a long time. I replaced clutch master, slave, the transmission, pushrods in the slave...tried may brake fluids...even mechanics at the local clutch shop couldn't bleed the clutch.
Since the lock washer solution I've never had a clutch pressure problem again. And sometime we find that ALL simple solutions to the hardest of ongoing problems make no sence at all. If anyone refers to my earlier post about the haynes manual page #190, you'll see exactly what I'm refering to.

Pat

I need to reply to your message. This topic is now 4 pages long. That alone should tell you that more than one or two people are having some kind of problem with their clutch system. Go back and read the first posts on using something other than DOT 3. It will set the tone for what has been said latter. I think that you missed this first part. As far as being "brave", I think that desperate would be a far better choice of words. I had put on two new master cylinders within one year, and the last one only lasted 6 weeks before it started to give me problems. I didn't want to put on a third new cylinder. I didn't want to get caught-up in the adage that "If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got". It was time to think "outside the box" (stupid clique). To answer Patrick, DOT 3 is not the problem. There are millions of cars and trucks driving around the world using DOT 3 with no problem. The problem is the poor seals in the Fiero's clutch hydraulics. We use DOT 3 in our brake system and we don't have 4 pages of problems. The ATF, and in my case Mobil 5-30, is not a cure for the problem. It will, in some cases, eliminate the symptoms. As far as "everyone must be doing it", I think it's Patrick, myself, and maybe one other. I've had the Mobil stuff in my system for about three months now, and each and every disengagement of the clutch has been what I consider perfect.

ATF Rocks Dude!!!

My clutch was sucking!(and I don't mean air.)

After reading thru this epic novel I tryed the ATF solution and it feels fine. Many have added to this post with various ideas and thoughts but alas those without MEGA bandwidth modems can no longer download the thread!

I also used the double seal/piston deal. These are not orthodox but so long as you are carefull to completely flush and remove ALL Dot 3 what can be harmed? Nuthin' as far as I can see.

The smart money is with the numbers as far as I can ascertain. I gotta get ADSL just to keep opening this thread!!

Ozzy

I havent read all the threads here but my mechanic put a pushrod from a motor inplace of the stock push rod. He had to grind it down. It turned out that the line in on the cylinder itself had a hair line crack that was letting air in. I took it down to the GM dealer and let them fix the stuff right.

HuH???

Paul, I noticed that you did something to your slave cyl. But one thing that nobody has mentionrd is that when you extend the arm in the slave cyl. you are also putting the throw out bearing tight against the pressure plate causing the pressure plate to wear out faster and also the throw out bearing. It now rides and spins constantly and can and will create the clutch to go out faster. Asking how I know? Well I have a special clutch built for my shop which at this time has exceeded all other clutches in the market. I do quite a lot of clutch work here in the S.F. Bay Area.
George

Provided that yours holds pressure. Yah! That would do it. Cook that bearing and push it right through the pressure plate.

Pat that is excactly what happens. The throw out bearing gets cooked and the fork goes into the pressure plats. I have seen many clutches go out this way.

I just wanted to bring this thread back to the top and ask if the folks with the ATF in their clutch cylinders were still happy. I'd like to know because my clutch is not releasing completly (it has the steel pedal) and will be working on it soon.
Thanks

I bought my Fiero almost three years ago. I had nothing but trouble with the clutch. You can check this thread to see when I made the changeover to ATF.

My clutch has never worked better.

Terry

I think that I have had the non-DOT3 stuff longer than anyone here, and it was working great up to the point that my daughter stuffed the car into a guard rail. Like Patrick, I have had nothing but trouble and expense until I went to the Moble One oil. I also had the aluminum pedal and the old style release arm, and it still worked great.

I lubricated the shifting linkage on top of the transmission with lithium grease on mine and that made it shift through the gears more easily, every little bit helps.

I don't know if one already exists for this use....

there is a cable lubing tool used in bicycle/motorcycle work that injects lubricants into the cables. It clamps onto the cable and creates a sealed cavity into wich you shoot spray oils into. It has clamps for the cable core and the jacket.

You might could do the same by clamping some fuel or heater line. slide the line over the cable and clamp it to the core and the sleave end. Clamp the straw from some 5-56, duralube, or whatever under teh clamp to the core. then hit the can valve. A bit messy maybe but should flush out any crud.

Controversy has reared its ugly head:

on alt.auto.fiero, there are a variety of naysayers on the issue of replacing brake fluid with ATF in the clutch mechanism.

The responses run the gammit from "You will soon find that your clutch master and slave cylinder seals are not compatible with ATF or any other oil. Might as well buy a set of seals and a couple cans of brakekleen now to have on hand."

To:

"Well, furbee it from me to pooh pooh your idea, but ATF is a much more aggressive fluid that DOT3 brake fluid. The rubber sealing materials are not the same. So maybe what has happened is the seals are swelling from the
ATF[1], and when they are completely swollen, they will start to disappear. Keep us posted on how this works out for you. Others may want to try the flush with a new can of DOT3 brake fluid first."

I have went ahead and made the switch, and the difference has been nothing short of amazing.

Comments?

Well, there's at least two of us who think the difference is amazing. My comments on the subject are all over this forum.

I did the switch almost four months ago. My clutch is working great.

You guys with the non-DOT 3 fluids in Clutches ... could we new guys have a status check? is the ATF and synthetic engine oil still working??

O M G!!!... the thread that never ends!

piece of advice... leave the ATF alone (it eats away at the hydraulic system (this was found to be true by all involved)), as well as the DOT 3... go with a DOT 4/5 product, Red Line Brake Fluid, or preferably Super Blue Brake Fluid... this is what people use in racing. It holds up excellent and doesn't boil out. I'm switching to that in the next several weeks.

------------------
hoop
Red '86 GT

Like an old friend... Oh, excuse me. I just sorta have a certain bond with this ancient thread.

Sorry hoop, this was NOT found to be true by ALL involved.

I've had ATF in my clutch hydraulic system for just short of a year now. My clutch works perfectly and I haven't had to bleed it since. (Well, just once about a week after I changed over.) Read this thread and you'll see all the problems I had before I converted.

However, I'll just say one thing...

DO NOT USE ATF WITH NEW MASTER AND/OR SLAVE CYLINDERS!!!

Only try using ATF with older cylinders as a last resort. There have been many reports of the seals in newer cylinders swelling up to the point where the pistons in the cylinders will not move. You have been warned.

In my case though, it was a gamble that paid off handsomely.

Here is the scoop on the Raybestos slave cylinder. The correct p/n for the 88 2.5 with 5 speed is SC-37795. It is the small bore, long rod cylinder. The SC-37794 is for the 4 speed. The Raybestos book has the numbers switched around! Note that the Raybestos parts have a lifetime warranty, so if your supplier is decent, you will be able to exchange them a few years down the road when they wear out!

Chuck, is your post in response to the one I made in this thread at 3:37 AM on April 11, 1999??!!!

If so, I give you full marks for making it through the whole four pages of this mega-thread!

Now this is a CLASSIC!!

I've just read the entire thread on this subject and feel like I've been there, done that.
So here's my story:
My buddy gave me his Fiero after he let it sit on the ocean for over a year. One of the problems that he had before parking it was the tranmission and he would squirt oil on the cables and linkage in the console. I drove the car home and research the problem to find that bleeding the sytsem might help and it did. The clutch would slip under hard power in 5th but I just drove it easy for a year. Then the clutch started making noises so I replaced it with a clutch kit which included the release bearing. I also replaced the clutch master and slave cylinder. A week later my GF said that the car was making noises so I had her pull it into the garage. The high idle was on and she couldn't push the clutch in and put both feet on it to try and stop. The excessive pressure in the system blew the braided hose to the slave cylinder and I yelled for her to turn the key off. The car stopped just short of going though the back wall of the garage. Pulling the starter and looking in revealed that the release bearing was cocked on the shaft and one ear was broken off. The parts house replace the bearing and said that it wasn't the first one that had done that. I couldn't find a hydraulic line and the Pontiac dealer wanted gold for a replacement that I found out was made down the street at a hydraulic shop. The shop wouldn't sell me the line or parts so I repaired the line I had. I cut the braided hose off and then welded the end back on the steel portion of the line using straight pins as welding rods. I then clamped the hose in place with a screw clamp.
My idea for bleeding the system is to use the cap from the replace master cylinder. I pushed a needle for inflating basketballs into the vent hole in the top and then filled the cylinder with DOT3 and screwed on the cap. At the slave I opened the bleeder and then applied ~3-5psi to the master using a tire pump. By the time I walked to the back, air and DOT3 where coming out of the bleeder. I closed the bleeder and refilled the master and repeated this several times until all the air was expelled. That was over 3 years ago and I haven't had to touch the system since.
As far as the shifting was concerned, it was still hard to hit 5th or reverse. About a month ago I tried to pull a vacumm on the select cable to get some oil in it but it broke off about 8" down in the engine compartment. Pontiac discontinued the select cable in Feb '99 so I looked for a used one. Best I could do was a froze up cable that had been worked free for $50. No thanks, I went to the BoatUS store and bought a 6' marine control cable and made fittings for the ends to connect the shifter and tranmission. The result: Like driving a new car, the shifting is one finger effortless, even to 5th. I should have done this years ago but I don't drive the car and my GF would tell me that she couldn't get it into reverse at times.
So there's my long winded contribution to keep this thread alive. Let me know if any of this is helpful.

------------------
CAPT RON...
Jack of Trades,
Master of None.
87 SE, 2.8L, Getrag.

wouldnt it add air to the system, using a bike pump?

------------------
hoop
Red '86 GT

quote Originally posted by bHooper: wouldnt it add air to the system, using a bike pump?

No.
The air pressure is on top of the DOT3 forcing it through the system to the slave cylinder. The only way that air would get into the system is if you let the DOT3 deplete in the master cylinder. Remember that when the pedal is up that the piston in the master cylinder uncovers a supply hole. Thats why a small amount of DOT3 squirts up when you step on the pedal. After the piston passes this hole the DOT3 is compressed and acts on the area of least resistance, the slave cylinder piston.

Here's a little demonstration for you: take an ordinary drinking straw and fill it half full of water. Hold your finger over one end and position the straw vertically. All the water is at the bottom, right? Now place your lips on the top of the straw and and increase the air pressure. Slowly move your finger on the other end and the water will be forced out under pressure. Think of the master cylinder as the top of the straw and the slave cylinder as the bottom.

As far as adding any length to the master cylinder rod, you could prevent the piston from moving past the supply hole and therefore the only DOT3 available is that which is trapped in the master cylinder bore. The bore cannot be refilled. Also the DOT3 will be under constant pressure and the temp. rise in the engine compartment could expand the DOT3 slightly and apply pressure to the clutch.
My gut feeling is that the Fiero hydraulic clutch systems are well up to the tasks that they were designed to do. If properly maintained they should perform flawlessly for many years.

------------------
CAPT RON...
Jack of Trades,
Master of None.
87 SE, 2.8L, Getrag.

quote My gut feeling is that the Fiero hydraulic clutch systems are well up to the tasks that they were designed to do.

I never, EVER thought I'd hear someone say THAT here!!! You definitely are in the minority with that belief, Captain. No matter, welcome aboard...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: [QUOTE]My gut feeling is that the Fiero hydraulic clutch systems are well up to the tasks that they were designed to do.

I never, EVER thought I'd hear someone say THAT here!!! You definitely are in the minority with that belief, Captain. No matter, welcome aboard...
[/QUOTE]
I'll stand behind my statement, I've owned and worked on several vehicles with hydraulic clutches. At least the Fiero slave cylinder is up on top of the bellhousing and they used a steel line and stainless flex instead of plastic tubing.
Ever had a clutch cable break while sitting at a stoplight? It squealed the tires on my Scirroco before I could react. Thank you, but no, I'll take the Fiero system any day even if I am a minority.
Besides, I will think of the majority as I cruise effortlessly mile after mile and if I see you on the side of the road I may even wave, in a minority sort of way.
In the mean time I will continue to post my knowledge on the forum, maybe it will benefit someone.

All in jest of course.

------------------
CAPT RON...
Jack of Trades,
Master of None.
87 SE, 2.8L, Getrag.

Ok I stayed up all night reading every post through out these 4 pages...ive talked to a few people who have posted here and they know about my problem...its been explained to death already I guess its just a major problem in Fieros..shifts fine when off but wont go into gear when its on...today i tried to bleed it and the valve on the slave cylinder was on so tight from the previous owner it just busted right off...my and my dad looked at it closely and it was filled with rust and other build up...we cleaned it out and tomorrow we're going to attempt to weld it back on to the slave cylinder..ill let you all know how it goes

I'm with Capt Ron, I've never had any clutch problems on any of my Fieros. I do have one car that is increddibly hard to get into first and reverse, and I have determined that it is the cables fault. I'm glad to hear that those marine cables work, as I was planning on using them on one of my cars with a lengthened chassis.

------------------
Jon Lagler
'86 GT 3800 (for sale)
'87 GT (noisey 2.8)
4.9 liter V8 Testarossa Spyder (under construction)

I am glad to say that I have had no problems with my clutch in the year that I have had it.

I expect it to take a dump tomorow now that I have said that.

[today i tried to bleed it and the valve on the slave cylinder was on so tight from the previous owner it just busted right off...my and my dad looked at it closely and it was filled with rust and other build up...we cleaned it out and tomorrow we're going to attempt to weld it back on to the slave cylinder..ill let you all know how it goes[/B][/QUOTE]

I hate to say this but I doubt that you will be able to weld it back on. If you are bent on saving this slave cylinder then drill the bleeder out and try to use an easy-out to remove it. If you go ahead with the welding idea then you need to disassemble the cylinder. Chances are that after you do that you will find that the cylinder is no good anyway. I know that money is sometimes the issue in repairing your car but in the long run you would be money ahead to just replace the cylinder and forget about the broken off bleeder. BTW, I've owned a welding business in the past and I wouldn't attempt to weld a bleeder back together while one half of it was still in the cylinder. Besides I'll bet that it will just break at the weld again. I don't want to sound doomsday here but save yourself a lot of time and headaches, replace it.

As for my other posts on the Fiero clutch design, I thank those who agree. To those who disagree, fix the problems with your clutch instead of spending your time doing shade tree engineering band-aid fixes. You might not like what I'm saying but it's the truth. I can't imaging a person redesigning a system in an afternoon that took days to design and perfect by an engineering team with god knows the resources at hand. Remember too that hydraulic theory is cut and dried and this clutch system was not just something that was thrown together at the last minute. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel.

Once again, fire away...

------------------
CAPT RON...
Jack of Trades,
Master of None.
87 SE, 2.8L, Getrag.

So Captain, was your first mate part of the original Fiero clutch design team or what? No offence, but your version of the "truth" conflicts with what I've been reading at this forum over the last year and a half and with what I've experienced myself. There have been many people who've posted here that they've replaced their slave cylinders with genuine GM slaves only to have them crap out shortly thereafter. Your "shade tree engineering band-aid" comments insult these people's intelligence and ability. Just because you've been fortunate doesn't negate the experiences of everyone else who's had problems. Maybe you'd also like to defend the GM engineers who designed those fabulous connecting rods which were infamous for punching holes in the blocks of ‘84 iron dukes.

By the way, I don't believe the bleeder valve itself broke in two on ScuFunk316's slave cylinder. From what I understand, the "shoulder" (or whatever you want to call it) that the bleeder valve screws into broke off of the slave.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-19-2000).]

Patrick your right, it did not snap in two it broke at the shoulder...it WAS welded back on succesfully and bleeding worked with the cheap 'ol "band-aid fix" ...but the clutch is still doin the same thing..i dont know what to do now.

When I bought my Formula ('88 v-6 5-speed) it still had the original clutch in it atfter 140K miles. The previous owner had never once had a problem with the clutch or hydraulics.
I replaced the clutch at 150K miles, not because it slipped or felt worn, but because I didn't want the clutch to go out durring a semester at school. I bought all new master and slave sylinders and did the ATF thing. After 1,000 miles the cylinder seals locked tight. I bought another brand new set of master and slave cylinders, put in DOT3, and haven't had to touch my clutch system yet. It has been just over 15,000 miles, and haven't ever gone farther than taking the cap off the master to check fluid level.

Fiero clutch hydraulics can work flawlessly. They just need the proper parts in good working order. Not 12+ year old worn out parts on their last leg. The cylinders aren't THAT expensive. If I ever buy another Fiero and have hydraulic problems, my first step will be to replace the cylinders.

Patrick,
I find it strange that the people with the intelligence and ability to solve the Fiero clutch problems are also the people that constantly post their latest clutch problems and failures on this forum. As far as the new slave cylinders failing, that could have been caused by misalignment or a host of other reasons. Besides the failure of new parts is not unheard of, my new release bearing failed in a week due to a defect during manufacturing. They replaced the bearing but I had to remove and install it. Another thing, it's not a coincidence that I'm fortunate with my car, I make sure that I will have the intended outcome when I work on it. My goal is to have the car operate as designed and only change those things that I can no longer find suitable parts to repair.
I think that there are a lot more people that are as fortunate with their Fiero as I am but either do not read or research information on their car or wish to waste their time posting.
The deal with the bleeder screw was explained to me via private e-mail as the screw broke off. He didn't say that the entire fitting came off. Either way he should have just replaced it to start with.
I'm not new to this stuff, I've monitored one Fiero website, forum, newsgroup after another for the last 4 years or so. Of course I don't have almost 1400 posts because I don't jump in and bash anyone that I feel may have more intelligence or ablilty than I. So carry on, I have better things to do like driving my Fiero that I'm fortunate to have operating so well.
One more thing, about the rods. I guess the ones you designed where perfect.

------------------
CAPT RON...
Jack of Trades,
Master of None.
87 SE, 2.8L, Getrag.

(knock on wood) Ive put a new disk with the new forged yoke in mine a year ago. Ive had no problems other than sometimes hard to get into 1st at a redlite, but it goes if I go into 2nd first, then back. Anyway with all the problems I see you guys having, if I ever need a new clutch, im junking the 4 speed for an automatic. Besides, my leg gets tired in bumper to bumper traffic anyway