hey guys, tommoroww im going to finish the front end. since im going to install the upper slotted ball joints and use the stock rubber bushings, should i put both shimms in the rear to get maximum caster, or leave it the way it is, its might be easier and faster when i bring it to the alignment shop, this way the price might be lower???

Those shims also adjust camber and have an effect on toe. I would leave it to the alignment shop because if camber is out they will have to mess with the shims anyway. The alignment machines they use tell them what shims to put in anyway, at least the ones I used did.

okay!!!!!

Any guess on the change in toe/camber vs a change in caster? Typically. I know it will various for different geometrys.

If V8Vinnie has an 84-87, the shims adjust caster, not camber. The upper ball joints can be rotated or shifted if adjustable to adjust camber.

Most alignment shops will not re-position the caster washers as part of a normal 4 wheel alignment. The shop I (formerly) used wanted to charge $50 extra to move the washers.

I would not recommend moving them until you know what the current setting is. The 84-87's are supposed to have 5 deg of caster with a tolerance of +- 2 deg. GM used to sell a thick and thin washer set that replaced the 2 6mm washers to allow move forward and back movement of the control arm. Both washers are not supposed to be on the same side. I had to do this on my blue GT due to a badly out of spec caster condition that affected drivability. I added a thin stainless steel washer to the front to protect the bushing when I moved both 6mm washers to the back.

Be sure the alignment shop gives you a printout when the car is on the machine. Then you can determine what might still be needed.

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Bob
2 - 87 GT's
85 SE 4 cyl

If the fiero has an SLA front suspension and the last time I looked it did than the shims behind the upper control arm shaft that holds the bushings to the control arm adjust both caster and camber.

Camber relates to the lean of the wheel inward from a true vertical as seen from the front of the wheel.

Caster is the forward and rearward tilt of the ball joint of kingpin from a true vertical, as seen from the side of the front wheel.

I may be wrong because I have never aligned a fiero before, but all other SLA suspensions that I have worked on adjusted the same way. I have worked on mostly older vehicles that have the SLA front suspension like most of GM'S rear wheel drive vehicles. In those vehicles I adjusted Caster and Camber by adjusting the shims behind the upper control arm shaft. The shims I'm talking about are the ones that are behind the bolts that go through the upper control arm shaft, which is the shaft that holds the upper control arm bushings. Add more shims to both sides and you adjust the camber positive, subtract the shims and the opposite happens. Add shims to the front bolt or subtract shims from the rear bolt only and you will increase positive caster, do the opposite and you know what.

I’m going to hit the punching bag now.

As far as the shop charging extra to align it right, that's BS. With strut suspensions so common, seems like a lot of shops want to kick the camber and toe in, if they can, and that's it. Less than an hour's work if the tech has a clue. One shop tried to jam a friend for camber kits for his Z24 struts. Monroes have slots to allow adjustment, unlike the OEM struts, so no camber kit is needed. I had to point this out to the "highly trained technician". Extra parts are where they make their money, just like brake jobs. I paid Sears $54.95 for mine, and it took 3 hours to get it right, thanks to Moog uppers. Warn them ahead of time about the extra work, and take your business elsewhere if you have to. It probably didn't hurt that I bought four tires at the same time, either. Places like Sears seem to be big on customer satisfaction IMHO. Their alignment rack is low enough to get my car on easily, too...
One thing to watch. Some of the racks tell them to put in shims for front camber, which is AFU for a Fiero, so it doesn't hurt to build some rapport with the tech so you can "help" as needed, either. The guy that did mine had never done a Fiero before, so he saw it as a challenge, and was glad to have me in the shop helping him.

.....considering the bolt and washers can be removed without taking anything apart.....

88Formula:

You should look at the Haynes manual on the Fiero front suspension for the 84-87 years. Your description is NOT correct for the Fiero.

The only factory camber adjustment was provided by unbolting the upperball joint and rotating the joint 180 deg, as it had a little offset in the joint. Aftermarket upper ball joints have slotted mounting holes to provide some in and out positioning to tilt the wheel as required.

The spacer washers on the upper control arm pivot bolt provide the front to back caster positioning only. GM designed this to accept 12mm of washers, normally 6mm in front and 6mm in back. They used to sell the 3/9 set to provide some movement, but the upper control arm must have 12mm worth of washers when assembled correctly. You do not use spacer washers to postion the control arm on the Fiero as you described.

It is described fairly well in the aftermarket manuals. I have rebuilt 3 Pro-88 and 1 88 suspension, so I am pretty familiar with the theory here.

I have exactly 0 knowledge of how other cars work though. The Fiero suspension is really pretty simple, even though most alignment shops will tell us they can only set the toe-in on the Fiero. WRONG!!!

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Bob
2 - 87 GT's
85 SE 4 cyl

OK thanks Bob Englert; I will check that out soon, as I have to align my 88 formula in a couple of months when the 3.4-liter engine goes in. Sorry v8vinnie guy. I should have checked this before I typed a response.

[This message has been edited by 88formula (edited 01-12-2001).]

88Formula:

Please remember the 88 suspensions are aligned totally differently than the pre-88's. The 88 has 2 paddle nuts that are connected using bolts through the cross shaft of the upper control arm. The holes are enlarged and the entire control arm is moved around and tightened down to set both camber and caster. No shims are used that I am aware of, and the 88 manual says to replace the nuts when servicing the control arm since they are supposed to be torque to yield, but they aren't available anywhere that I am aware of.

Feel free to ignore me if this is common knowledge.

Have a great weekend!

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Bob
2 - 87 GT's
85 SE 4 cyl

well i got home today and started to replace the stock springs with my new pro springs, and my new adjustable ball joints that i picked up today at autozone, part # fa1021, 16.99 each. got it all done in one hour and 15min. took the car around the block to settle all the bushings and springs in, looks great, droped about inch and a quarter. thanks for the info guys, now i just got to get it aligned,talk later!!!!