OK, I'm buying a white '88 GT V6 5sp. It has right at 100Kmi, and is in excellent, stock, condition. I have the exterior basically planned out (can't decide if I can part with those gorgeous OE taillights for the Euros, though!), working on the interior plan, and need to make some headway on the engine department ASAP.
I know I want a V8. About 300hp, and hopefully 275+ lb/ft of tourque. I will be retaining the Getrag 5sp tranny (with a beefed up clutch/flywheel package), and would like to add as little weight as possible, given the circumstances. The engine MUST be injected, no old iron with carbs here. I know the LT1 and LS1 are options, and the price ain't bad. I'm going to beg Archie to prototype a [oops, don't want to give that away] kit on my car, but who knows. I guess the question is this, who here has an LT1 or LS1 (or other comparable option), and what are your thoughts on your swap? Note; this MUST be an Archie kit.
Thanks!
------------------ Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com -----------------
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06:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
sjp777 Member
Posts: 613 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Apr 2001
If you can get him motivated to produce an LS1 kit, that is the obvious choice. LS1 puts out about 25 to 30 more hp than the LT1, but that is not the real benefit. LS1's are all aluminum with a composite plastic intake. Much lighter. Probably lighter than the 2.8 V6.
Either motor will put out more than enough hp for a Fiero. The lower weight of the LS1 will retain the handling of the car with the stock motor, just with gobs more hp.
If you can pull off an LS1 swap, as far as I know you'll be the first, but we're all waiting for that bad boy so you won't be the last.
Go with the LT1 , it may be heavier , but i have heard some stories about LS1's going bad. A fellow autocrosser has had to have te valve trail replaced on his , bent pushrods. Also I have seen a few write ups in Gm hi performance from people saying they wish they had kept the LT1 over the Ls1...
The LS1's main advantage is it's weight.
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT 4spd Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals..Autocrossed , Tracked , abused.
As for the N*, I have yet to see one putting out it's full potential of power, plus this MUST be Archie, and MUST be 5sp manual, both of which rule out the N* (it canNOT be converted to manual).
Hadn't heard of the bad LS1's, thanks for the news, I'll keep an eye out!
Sounds like LT1 so far...Does anyone know the weight difference with an LT1? Also what's stock HP?
THANKS!
------------------ Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com -----------------
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09:51 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
An LT1 weighs the same as older small blocks with aluminum heads: Expect about 100 lbs weight gain over a V6. The problem with the LT1 is that is requires notching the left frame rail, moving engine and transaxle to the left 2 inches, "molding" right strut tower with a BFH, custom axles and mount brackets for everything, and is generally a much larger pain than a standard small block.
I've heard rumors that Archie has completed one LS1 conversion, but the expense, effort, complexity, and lack of demand rule out a kit for now. These are just rumors, mind you.
An intelligently built aluminum head TPI or Mini-Ram small block would achieve your goals more easily than an LT1 at the same weight.
Don't say a Northstar can't be used with a manual. Someone just may prove you wrong.
Why does it "have to be" Archie?
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10:01 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
the engine block on a Nstar may be all aluminum and lighter. but you have to use the Nstar tranny(4t80-e i believe) which brings the weight up a lot. and you cant have a stick with a Nstar engine.
Originally posted by Will: An LT1 weighs the same as older small blocks with aluminum heads: Expect about 100 lbs weight gain over a V6. The problem with the LT1 is that is requires notching the left frame rail, moving engine and transaxle to the left 2 inches, "molding" right strut tower with a BFH, custom axles and mount brackets for everything, and is generally a much larger pain than a standard small block.
I've heard rumors that Archie has completed one LS1 conversion, but the expense, effort, complexity, and lack of demand rule out a kit for now. These are just rumors, mind you.
An intelligently built aluminum head TPI or Mini-Ram small block would achieve your goals more easily than an LT1 at the same weight.
Don't say a Northstar can't be used with a manual. Someone just may prove you wrong.
Why does it "have to be" Archie?
100lbs sounds fine... The trouble to go LT1 over the "older" engines would also be worth the trouble for me...If I did an LM1 or something, I'd always wonder how much better an LT1 would have been. I have also heard Archie may have completed an LS1. I have a pic that I took of an LS1 on a stand in his shop from last fall, so it just may be true. The design of the N* block was not considerate of the needs of a manual trans. Like Carroll did on the Series 1 (with an engine that is a derivitave of the N*), you'd have to use a special clutch assembly. I believe it's called a "spider" clutch or something, so it "can" be done, but why? As for Archie, he's less than 3 hours away, I've been to the shop and met him and I trust his opinions. he has done easilly as many V8/Fiero swaps and anyone in the nation, and it pays to go with those who know. (Archie, make that check payable to...j/k )
Thanks for all the great feedback! Sounds like LT1 so far...
------------------ Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com -----------------
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10:11 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Well, if you will be wondering how much faster the next step up would be, go with an LT4 instead of an LT1. I've heard that the LT4 is actually stronger than non-Corvette LS1's, and is easily as strong as a Corvette LS1.
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10:16 PM
sjp777 Member
Posts: 613 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Apr 2001
BRODEX makes a old style alum block that all small block hotrod goodies fit about $2500. speed=$$$$$ how fast you want to go? N* stick canbe done with hal-teck controler or what ever c shelby used in s-1 not easy or cheap but can be done.
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
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10:41 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Don't forget that an LT1 intake manifold can bolt on backwards and keep the intake in the same place as the stock Fiero V6, simplifying plumbing a little bit.
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10:42 PM
Jun 4th, 2001
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Not trying to sell anyone on the N*, but I've heard a 5-speed N* has already been done. Remember, any time someone says something can't be done, someone else is gonna use that as an excuse to do it! Heck, that's how people like Archie got started. They wanted something no one else had done yet, so they did it themselves. Gotta love it!
IMO, the only reason I'd say N* is for the weight and fit. It will fit in the engine compartment a bit easier. But I also wouldn't do one now because of the electronics involved. If I wanted a V8 today, it would be an Archie kit. He's already done the R&D. When a N* kit is available with the same level of completeness and engineering as an Archie kit, I'd seriously consider it, but not until then.
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09:23 AM
FieroLT1 Member
Posts: 320 From: MilwauKee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Hmmm... Where have I seen that red Corvette LT1 before? Oh Wait! It's right here. In my car!
sjp777: I may have access to an LT1 for you. Interested?
TRIAD: I'd definitively go with an LT1. You'd never even consider anything else once you ride in one.I also have docs that show the LT1 reaching max torque before the LS1 does. It is as sweet as it gets on a Fiero. Definitively worth every penny. I met about 5 people at the Dells show that are already working on theirs. Go ahead and Join the club!
There are several 5 speed Northstars on the road using Gary Zumalts kit. Even with the electronic problems (for lack of a better word) my Northstar (with N* auto) is still easily over 250hp to the wheels. On the dyno the computer shut everything down at 145mph. There are chips on the market that will remove the speed and rev limiter and change the shift points. The company that sells them is called Pro-tech transmissions. More and more is becoming available for the Northstar. Maybe we can persuade Archie to do some Research and Developement projects using the N*
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06:30 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
i talked to archie this weekend about a manual and a northstar. he would tell better but from what i understand you can do it because the crankshaft isnt designed for use with a pressure plate. the pressure plate pushes the crank and acutally adds stress to the connecting rods. causing problems with the bearings down the road. the aurora engine has been used in a cobra car but with a different clutch setup. the clutch is too big to fit in a fiero tranny. even if you did get the computer problems solved. from what i understand the pressure plate will cause premature bearing failure. where as a small block was designed to be used with a standard clutch setup.
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: i talked to archie this weekend about a manual and a northstar. he would tell better but from what i understand you can do it because the crankshaft isnt designed for use with a pressure plate. the pressure plate pushes the crank and acutally adds stress to the connecting rods. causing problems with the bearings down the road. the aurora engine has been used in a cobra car but with a different clutch setup. the clutch is too big to fit in a fiero tranny. even if you did get the computer problems solved. from what i understand the pressure plate will cause premature bearing failure. where as a small block was designed to be used with a standard clutch setup.
Then how does the Shelby clutch work?
All the clutches I've seen either pull or push. Thus all the clutches I've seen load the crank thrust bearing in one way or another. How does a clutch work without loading the thrust bearing?
Originally posted by ray b: irl, shelby s-1 and caddy's le manz cars are all sticks.how they fix this N-* cluch thrust problem?
The IRL engine is NOT N*, it's a custom IRL engine, The Series 1 uses a "spider clutch", whic in itself is an expensive mod, and the Caddy LM enginesa re made by McLaren, and have NOTHING in common with any GM engine ever made.
Yes, this guy mated it to a Getrag, I never said you couldn't just make an adapter and mount it, we were all sayint once mounted, you would begin a cycle of destruction of the bearings. These guys also say not to mod the engine, but to use it basically stock, and with the ECU problems all the N*s I know of are having...no thanks. It is a great motor, but no one has figured out a way around my concerns with putting it in a Fiero yet.
Thanks!
------------------ Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com -----------------
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06:28 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by TRiAD: The IRL engine is NOT N*, it's a custom IRL engine, The Series 1 uses a "spider clutch", whic in itself is an expensive mod, and the Caddy LM enginesa re made by McLaren, and have NOTHING in common with any GM engine ever made.
Explain a "spider clutch", please.
The IRL engine is dimensionally the same as the Aurora V8, only costs 12 times as much.
Where on Earth did you hear that Caddy LMP engines are made by McLaren? That is ridiculous.
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09:22 AM
northstar87 Member
Posts: 340 From: Fort Wayne, IN USA Registered: Jan 99
Hi, Will, I hope you aren't saying anything bad about me. I have never said anything about you. I feel that all these v-8 conversions are good. I feel that everyone has to knock each other for which conversion they do. Does it really matter??? Why do some people always have to be jealous about other people who are successful with their Archie kit, Zumalt kit, Design One, or other engine swap? Just do whatever makes you happy. People on this list need to cool down about attacking people about their cars. We are all Fiero lovers. We need to work together, not fight. I will see you all in Michigan.
Originally posted by Will: Explain a "spider clutch", please.
The IRL engine is dimensionally the same as the Aurora V8, only costs 12 times as much.
Where on Earth did you hear that Caddy LMP engines are made by McLaren? That is ridiculous.
Will, As I have stated many times here, I'm not sure how the clutch system in the Series 1 works, only that it was the only way to reliably put a manual on a N* engine, as it removes pressure (from the clutch assembly) from the block.
The Cadillac LMP cars have "McLaren Engines" written right on them. At any rate, that engine has nothing in common whatsoever with the N* production engine.
On a side note, I do not claim to be some "knowledge god" in this area, I'm only passing on what I know or have been told. Please don't be rude just because something I say disagrees with your feeling on the subject. You give your info and source, and I'll give mine, and we can weigh it out, no biggie.
Have a nice day.
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11:57 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by TRiAD: Will, As I have stated many times here, I'm not sure how the clutch system in the Series 1 works, only that it was the only way to reliably put a manual on a N* engine, as it removes pressure (from the clutch assembly) from the block.
You haven't stated that many times before, at least not in this thread.
The Cadillac LMP cars have "McLaren Engines" written right on them. At any rate, that engine has nothing in common whatsoever with the N* production engine.
Picture? I haven't seen that logo.
Do an internet search for "LMP Norhtstar" or something to that effect. A while back I found a page that had basic engine dimensions. The LMP engine was the same as the production engine except for having a shorter stroke and forged internals (before production N* had forged internals), which is entirely understandable. I have a picture of the engine bay. The bloody thing has regular production cam covers. This year they're going to a 180 degree crankshaft in the LMP.
On a side note, I do not claim to be some "knowledge god" in this area, I'm only passing on what I know or have been told. Please don't be rude just because something I say disagrees with your feeling on the subject. You give your info and source, and I'll give mine, and we can weigh it out, no biggie.
No offense, but I've been taking everything you say with a grain of salt, as a portion of it are just "things that make you go hmmmm....". You haven't demonstrated a whole lot of knowledge of Northstars; as when you implied that an adapter is needed to mount a Getrag to a N*. An old quote about opening one's mouth to remove doubt comes to mind.
Will, I'm sorry to see that we can't discuss this as adults.
I never claimed to have a lot of knowledge about N*s, I don't care to at this point, because they do not lend themselves to my plans. My info on the clutch problems comes from Archie, I suggest you inquire as to the reasoning with him, as I'm sure he knows WAY more than I do. You could ask him if an adapter would be needed to mount the N* to the OE Getrag form a GT, I'm sure he'd know if they would just bolt up without one or not. Other than that, the rest doesn't matter. It's a nice engine, I'll admit, and I'm amazed at the technology GM put into it, but no one has done a swap with that motor into a Fiero that I would be happy with, that's all.
Oh yeah , the motors in the Lemans cars have LOTS in common with the producton motor.
As well , I don't know if anyone remembers a few years back there were IMSA cars running around with Aurora motors. There is a big write up in sports car on the engines. Stock blocks and heads , nitrided cranks , all sorts of performance mods (lots of fuel injection stuff, singel butterfly for each cylinder) In anycase 600hp and they idled nicely. (heard a few at Mosport int he pits)
We can end this arguement fairly quickly , I will email Michael Black former tech dir of Cadillac and avid race fan.. but I'm 99.9% sure I'm right on this just from the literate I have read.
This was the reason I was drawn to the N* , 4 cam 32 valve v8. more exotic like an LT5 , which we all know was designed by lotus and built by mercury marine. A few of the designers of the Lt5 jumped ship to GM during the production/ development of the Zr1 vette , they ended up working on the N*
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT 4spd Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals..Autocrossed , Tracked , abused.
at http://www.autointell.com/News-2001/April-2001/April-04-01-p11.htm it does say; "Engine enhancements add power, improves performance, reduce weight The two Cadillac LMP entries again are powered by the race-proven, highly sophisticated, twin-turbo Northstar engine system, a derivative from the Cadillac production line. For the 2001 season, the development program targets a 5 percent horsepower increase with an attendant 20-pound reduction in weight."
So, I was wrong. Since this info is wrong, I won't burn who told me the engine was not related, I will just say I was wrong, and I'm sorry.
As for the "spider" thing with the clutch, I am not certain that I'm saying that right, like I said, that info came from Archie, so we'll ask him when he gets back.
Sorry, and thanks! ------------------------ One place I saw McLaren on the car was here...
In front of the "ACDelco" logo, under the radiator. It's not clear in this pic, but if you can find a clear one, I believe it says "McLaren Systems" or something similar...may be where my source got his (mis)information.
--------------------------- I've also emailed the builder of the IMSA Auroras you mentioned, and hope to hear from him soon what his thought and experiences are on the Aurora engines and manuals. This should help, too.
[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 06-05-2001).]
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03:40 PM
PFF
System Bot
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by TRiAD: Will, I'm sorry to see that we can't discuss this as adults.
I never claimed to have a lot of knowledge about N*s, I don't care to at this point, because they do not lend themselves to my plans. My info on the clutch problems comes from Archie, I suggest you inquire as to the reasoning with him, as I'm sure he knows WAY more than I do. You could ask him if an adapter would be needed to mount the N* to the OE Getrag form a GT, I'm sure he'd know if they would just bolt up without one or not. Other than that, the rest doesn't matter. It's a nice engine, I'll admit, and I'm amazed at the technology GM put into it, but no one has done a swap with that motor into a Fiero that I would be happy with, that's all.
Ok, maybe I came across a bit strong.
It just gravels me when someone spouts incorrect third hand info without bothering to verify it, or even do a sanity check on it themselves.
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07:08 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Why are you so stuck on LT1's? If you want REAL power, build a short stroke, big bore, long rod 350. Popular Hot Rodding built an example of this phenomenal engine a year or two ago. It was a 400 block with a 327 crank, Ford connecting rods with 6.209" center distance, custom pistons, aluminum heads, 11:1 compression. The amazing thing was that it made 430 HP and 430 ftlbs on 87 octane with a 215 degree cam. It had 400 ftlbs available from 2000 RPM. The version they built was carbuerated, but building a fuel injected version would be no sweat. It was cheap, too. The whole deal came in under $3000 dollars.
I'll post a link to the article sometime soon.
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07:18 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Why are you so stuck on LT1's? If you want REAL power, build a short stroke, big bore, long rod 350...I'll post a link to the article sometime soon.
I'm not necessarilly stuck on LT1s, right now they just seem to be the closest thing to what I want. I want an engine with some technology behind it, which a big iron carb'ed motor does not, in my eyes. I don't need much more than 300hp and 300lb ft, and I can get there easilly with the LT1. I really want to stick with something I can have installed less than 3 hrs away from home by someone who knows their way around it, and Archie really fills the bill. He has ready-to-go LT1s usually in stock, it seems, and has done several. The LS1 and LT5 engines are also candidates, but right now the LT1 seems more viable, and less expensive.
I would LOVE to get a Z-06 in there, but then we're talking a whole new kit, new electronics, and a most likely difficult to source (and expensive) engine.
There's my thoughts at this point. I know I have a lot more to learn, and could very well change my mind before it's done. I'm not ordering the engine tomorrow or anything, so we'll just have to see what happens.
I really appreciate your thoughts, and even your enthusiasm. It's nice to see the different positions on these things. I guess it's just good there are so many different options, with so much potential, for this thing.
Thanks all!
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09:16 PM
Jun 6th, 2001
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
whats wrong with an aluminum head 350 with TPI injection. its going to be a lot cheaper to do and you can get 300hp fairly easily. with the LT1 all your getting is and expensive engine. yes its powerful. but unless you want it to be a corvette engine the TPI setup is goin to be way more cost effective.
The TPI motors were ok for their time but you could get anything from a 305 180hp gutless wonder to a 245hp L98. Why buy hot dogs when you could have steak!?
The draw for the LT1 is: HP and Torque curve better than any F/I motor GM made b4. 275-285hp bone stock 335-355ftlbs STOUT bottom ends. Aluminum Heads, intake w/p reverse flow cooling (heads cooled first) "crank mounted ignition" (not really run off crank, ran off w/p!) Can run intake flipped around backwards. Very few hoses, wires etc to clutter things up on an LT1. responds VERY well to intake and exhaust mods. Very reliable engine....except for the 93-94 non-vented opti-spark (distributor). So get a 95-97 engine or update to vented style opti. Good thing about the LT1 is that you dont have a belt driven water pump...so no w/p in the fender well like Archie's non-LT1 swaps. Electric driven smog pump...unplug throw away! EGR....Buy the LT4 block off plate and throw away. My car passed emissions w/o either of those with flying colors. And it runs 12's. (94 Formula WS6 6 speed)
Only concern and maybe Archie can comment here is how close does the opti-spark get to the pass frame rail? Gotta be close!. Heck even that big gear driven w/p has to be close. I think a Zumalt "style" kit would solve that though but I dunno...Archie? I am not a v8 fiero fan. I have built them and never was happy with it BUT, if I was to build another one, it would be an LT1 for sure. I just cant see going from instant start hot or cold F/I engine to a "lost in the 60's" carb'ed one.
Steven
------------------ 87 Fiero GT 14.9/ 93mph 94 Formula WS6 w/ NOS 12.4 /118mph 87 Conquest TSi 85.5 Starion ESi
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01:12 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I hate to rain on your picnic, but why fight the easiest exchange? Archie has a proven kit to cleanly (relatively) install a standard SBC V-8 in the compartment. Everyone know the Northstar is a respectable engine - for its size. And everyone knows the LT1 in stock trim is a more potent engine than the older L98 in stock trim. But the Northstar would SH!T on itself if it had to produce more than 800 HP. The LT1 is difficult and expensive to massage more than 450HP from naturally aspirated (I know since I've got two of them).
There are several "old" SBC engines making in excess of 1,400 HP reliably. Why make the choice so excruciating? If you cant get 425HP out of a standard SBC V-8 with off-the-shelf parts, you don't deserve to own a wrench. And if you want more than that in a Fiero chassis without significantly reinforcing it, you're an idiot. The car will buckle from the torque right at the rear upper braces. Since you only have to pass 1988 emissions standards in the worst case, why make it complicated? Anything you can do to a Northstar, LT1/4, or LS1/6 to make power, I can do to an "old" SBC Gen I and make MORE power. Unless you want to tell me that you've seen a 426 CID LT1 or LS1, I'm not buying it...
------------------ "Let the bodies hit the floor!"
