quote Originally posted by Vader: I hate to rain on your picnic, but why fight the easiest exchange? Archie has a proven kit to cleanly (relatively) install a standard SBC V-8 in the compartment. Everyone know the Northstar is a respectable engine - for its size. And everyone knows the LT1 in stock trim is a more potent engine than the older L98 in stock trim. But the Northstar would SH!T on itself if it had to produce more than 800 HP. The LT1 is difficult and expensive to massage more than 450HP from naturally aspirated (I know since I've got two of them). There are several "old" SBC engines making in excess of 1,400 HP reliably. Why make the choice so excruciating? If you cant get 425HP out of a standard SBC V-8 with off-the-shelf parts, you don't deserve to own a wrench. And if you want more than that in a Fiero chassis without significantly reinforcing it, you're an idiot. The car will buckle from the torque right at the rear upper braces. Since you only have to pass 1988 emissions standards in the worst case, why make it complicated? Anything you can do to a Northstar, LT1/4, or LS1/6 to make power, I can do to an "old" SBC Gen I and make MORE power. Unless you want to tell me that you've seen a 426 CID LT1 or LS1, I'm not buying it...

The link I posted above is an old style small block.

Where have you heard of a N* putting out 800 hp? IRL engines put out about 600 NA

BTW, MTI builds 422 cid LS1's
www.motorsporttech.com

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Oh yeah, almost forgot McLaren's Formula 1 car uses a Mercedes engine.

I was talking about the Road Car.

JM

I think vader is saying you wont see a Nstar putting out power like that.

i like a small block because its more versitile. you can get a crate replacement motor for 1200 bucks. this is the one archie puts in a lot of his cars. and it puts out about 270hp. not sure how accurate that is but its what they say you get. or you can buckle down and drop a few more grand and get 450hp on a car that you would be able to drive everyday.
Nstar you ahve to fight with the computer to get the 300hp that it has stock. and that engine doesnt have over 300lb/ft of torque, where as a small block you can get that easily. torgue is what gets you movin, thats what i want.

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JOEJOE Aol:SSFiero

88FORMULA
SSFiero@Aol.com

"Kids in the backseat cause accidents, accidents in the backseat caused me!!"

*raises hand*

I have personally ridden in 3 and watched the install of 1 421 CID LT1 stroker.
Yep they are out there and they are BAD!!
The name Scott Channon ring a bell?

I agree that it is harder to make SUPER high HP #'s out of the newer LT1/LS1/LS6 but thats just because they are NEW.
Given the amount of time the GEN I SBC have had its a "no-brainer" they can make that kind of HP. Now Lets play catch up with the newer engines....with that kinda of time for R&D I bet they will out perform the "old" engines.
But then...this is really a moot point because what person in there right mind would try to drop that much HP into a Fiero?

Steven

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87 Fiero GT 14.9/ 93mph
94 Formula WS6 w/ NOS 12.4 /118mph
87 Conquest TSi
85.5 Starion ESi

Hehehe, good discussio by all!

Fortunately, I'm not looking for more than 300-400 max hp and that same in lb/ft. Now, just to throw a wrench into it, Lingenfelter has the awe inspiring 383 stroker kit for the LT1 as well.

At any rate, If I win the lottery (something difficult to do when you don't play), I'd pay for Archie to develop a Z-06 kit.

Failing that, I'll be going with a mildly tuned LT1, and be plenty happy with my "corvette" valve covers, and blowing away anything this side of a new 911 Turbo.

Thanks guys!

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Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com
-----------------

quote Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: I think vader is saying you wont see a Nstar putting out power like that. i like a small block because its more versitile. you can get a crate replacement motor for 1200 bucks. this is the one archie puts in a lot of his cars. and it puts out about 270hp. not sure how accurate that is but its what they say you get. or you can buckle down and drop a few more grand and get 450hp on a car that you would be able to drive everyday. Nstar you ahve to fight with the computer to get the 300hp that it has stock. and that engine doesnt have over 300lb/ft of torque, where as a small block you can get that easily. torgue is what gets you movin, thats what i want.

As BV said, the SBC is much more versatile because its been around longer.
Do you know what you have to do to make a box stock Northstar spin past 8000 RPM?
Change the valve springs. That's it.

450 HP from an NA northstar that still makes engouh vacuum to operate a power brake booster is quite possible. There just isn't nearly as much available for this engine as there is for the SBC.
Pretty much all of the NA stuff is at www.chrfab.com
Did you know that model year 2000 and later engines have forged crank and rods? They're only a set of forged pistons away from a ton of boost and massive power. There are already RWD and TT conversion kits for this engine putting out 600 HP.

I'm not saying it's "better" than an SBC, because each has it's own set of applications, I'm just trying to open your mind a little bit.

My .02-If you gotta line on a cheep LT1,go
for it!.NOTHING beats a SBC for HP/dollar and
parts availibility.Secondly,you are correct
about the HP-mine is sitting at about 300 and
IMHO,if you need more than that,you should
consider buying a race car.this car is almost
dangerous if you try to play with it in
traffic-your overtaking speed gets hard to
judge and having to almost lock the wheels
at the bottom of the on ramps is a great way
to get a ticket.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Failing that, I'll be going with a mildly tuned LT1, and be plenty happy with my "corvette" valve covers, and blowing away anything this side of a new 911 Turbo.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there are several several ways to "blow away anything this side of a new 911 Turbo" instead of putting a V8 in a Fiero, all for alot cheaper too. While I would consider my V8 Fiero fast, it certainly isn't 'king of the streets'. I could be reading this wrong, and you may have other reasons for putting a V8 in a Fiero, but if its just to flat out beat people on the street, you will be disappointed.
Hope I didn't wrinkle anybody's feathers.

------------------

BBBAD V8 For Sale

BBBAD 5.0

Brad, thanks for your input.
Are you saying that a mildly tuned LT1 on the Getrag 5sp isn't as fast as some people have said? I was told that it is capable of sub-4.5sec 0-60 times, on stret tires.
That's really faster than I need, anything at 5.0sec or under would be great.
Now, I know your engine has LOTS of power, but it is the older style V8, not the LT1. Maybe there is something to this...yours is on the 4sp too, right? I wonder if that makes a difference. What does your run 0-60 in?

OK, we need people to chime in with their set-ups and 0-60 times.

My main goal is not to be the fastest thing out there...I like the look of what I have designed for the Fiero, and want the mid-rear layout. Looks, exotic layout, and power are what I'm looking for.

Thanks!

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Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com
-----------------

Triad, is he saying that he can provide a 5 speed tranny for the Northstar? or at least the major components?

Sounded like the bellhousing to me...but they make many custome race vehicles from scratch, so I imagine he could come up with a complete tranny kit, if necessary.

I asked him about the bearings being a concern with a manual on a N*, and am waiting to hear back. I'll keep you posted.

It sounds like what is being said is that they can have someone build a bellhousing that can bolt to a GM transmission or aftermarket equivilant. It also says that if someone made a manual trans flywheel that fits to a heavy duty fiero clutch that it should also work.

see you havent read the lingafelter 427 cid ls1 artical in last months popular hotrodding and all aluminum and the ls1 is an aussi engine not american

and this pic is right from holden motor sports in australia

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexx (edited 06-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexx (edited 06-07-2001).]

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexx: see you havent read the lingafelter 427 cid ls1 artical in last months popular hotrodding and all aluminum and the ls1 is an aussi engine not american and this pic is right from holden motor sports in australia [This message has been edited by bubbajoexx (edited 06-07-2001).]

The LS1 is a product of GM powertrain and available to all divisions of GM, including Holden.
I wish they sold a Holden commodore or equivalent here.
I miss the Impala SS!

why not just buy a plain jane 350 block for a parts house, and put whatever internals you want, then dump an Edelbrock Pro Flo EFI system? This system works great, I have 2 friends that have them, Not on fiero's, and they work great for them.

see them at summitracing.com, go to air and fuel, then to injection systems.
[This message has been edited by fierofrek (edited 06-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by fierofrek (edited 06-07-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Will: applications, I'm just trying to open your mind a little bit.

It's good to see thinking like this on the Forum.

As for Lt1's running sub 4.5 sec to 60. I think that is hype. There is a guy on archies page who says he has 4?? Hp in his car , running 13.3's with a getrag. I think a lot of people get the idea that there fiero is going to be a be all end all street racer if they put in a V8. BBBAD GT is right about faster cheaper alternative. The Fiero shop in Toronto put a Turbo on a 2.8 with an intercooler and the usual turbo go fast goodies, I believe it was running mid 13's. Now i'm not saying a turbo is the way to go , because I personall want a Northstar within the next year. But there is always someone faster.

If someone builds a Northstar manual tranny car do it with the Celica 6spd tranny or the VR6 VW 6spd tranny(conversion for 5spds) Now that would be a conversion!!.

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Jonathan McCreery
86 GT 4spd
Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals..Autocrossed , Tracked , abused.

quote Originally posted by Will: The LS1 is a product of GM powertrain and available to all divisions of GM, including Holden. I wish they sold a Holden commodore or equivalent here. I miss the Impala SS!

the engine was created and fist develope in australia not gm of america yes the holdens still have rear wheel drive in almost all of there cars the lsi was first used in the 98 modle year

JM you are correct. That 85 GT with the 2.8 Turbo and intercooler kicked my ass last year running low 13's!! I e-mailed Haltech today about a programmable ecu, and hope to hear back from them tomorrow. I'm rally curious now about this custom bellhousing mentioned earlier.

Not to wade into the middle of this one, but no matter what engine you end up with, 0-60 and quarter mile are going to be determined in large part by available traction. If you stick with a mostly stock rear suspension (no coil overs) and want to keep the tires inside the wheel wells, you're looking at what 235-245 max width (depending on wheel size)? I'd wager that a 400 HP engine compared to a 300 HP engine isn't going to drop your ETs all that much (given similar torque in each engine) due to lack of traction. Stop and think - at 280 HP you're doubling the stock HP of these cars! :0

Now all that being said, you can NEVER have enough HP! But there are many ways to solve that problem - it's all a matter of personal preference.

Hartz
'84 SC 5.7L V8
'85 SE 3.1L V6 Turbo

I had an interesting conversation with the
tech guy at centerforce clutches yesterday.
I was inquiring about having a "custom"
pressure plate made,and he said yes they
would be happy to do it!-then he started telling me some horror stories.They have done
this sort of thing in the past for people
like lingenfelter(sp?)who have built 450HP,
400ftlbs sbc's who then proceed to shatter
the trans cases-in one car they broke 5 trans
before they gave up and pulled the motor!.The
bottom line is:keep it around 300-350HP and
don't go over about 300-325 torque and you can keep your car together.The reason I tend
to belive him is-he says buy their off the
shelf dual friction clutch and it will hold
to the above numbers,when he could have told
me I needed a "custom" unit and have paid
more than 600.00 for the privilidge of not
getting anything other than busted 5spds.
what do you guys think?

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexx: the engine was created and fist develope in australia not gm of america yes the holdens still have rear wheel drive in almost all of there cars the lsi was first used in the 98 modle year

The LS1 was first used in the '97 Corvette.

Remember that the engine is only have the decision.

If you go with a V-8 you will NEED upgraded braking, a larger radiator, hood vents of some sort, and improved suspension.

All of this can add to bottom line significantly. Do some homework on the cost of these necessary changes before taking the plunge.

Lingenfelter now offers a 427 cid LS1 conversion for Corvettes making 500hp and 530 ft-lb, no turbo required. Article in July Car&Driver. They tested the Z06 vette with this engine and got 0-60 of 3.4 sec, 1/4 mil of 11.7@124mph. Just bring your 'vette and $22,650 for the engine work!!

quote Originally posted by Will: The LS1 was first used in the '97 Corvette.

the 97 corvette used the lt4 not the ls1

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Remember that the engine is only have the decision. If you go with a V-8 you will NEED upgraded braking, a larger radiator, hood vents of some sort, and improved suspension. All of this can add to bottom line significantly. Do some homework on the cost of these necessary changes before taking the plunge.

You won't NEED to upgrade anything but the rad. Depends on useage. Archie runs lots of cars without hood vents. Remember the 60's? 427 Big Blocks and drum brakes, The fiero brake system can be made to work adequatley if maintained.

as for the suspension all you need to do is adjust your driving style, The motor doesn't add that much weight to the car according to a few people (80lbs) I would move the battery to the front. IF your doing it on a budget just do a bit at the time. Worry about major things like the engine running right and being cooled properly.

------------------

Jonathan McCreery
86 GT 4spd
Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals..Autocrossed , Tracked , abused.

Excellent advice.
I have always planned from the beginning to do it in about this order...
1) Buy the car (duh!)
2) Suspension (wheels and tires, springs, adjustable dambers, swaybars, upper strut bar, bushings, etc..)
3) Safety (rolbar, big brake kit, S/S lines, harneses, etc..)
4 and 5) Exterior (see sig) and Engine (LT1, radiator upgrade, clutch and flywheel, etc).
Not sure what order the last 2 will happen in.
6) Interior will be last (Mr.Mike's seats, pedals, wheel, knob, gauges, etc..)

We'll see how it actually goes, but this is a rough plan.

------------------
Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com
-----------------

Photoshop rendering of planned exterior modifications.

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexx: the 97 corvette used the lt4 not the ls1

97 was the 1st yr for the LS1 in the Corvette
98 1st yr for the LS1 in the F-body
96 (and only yr the LT4 was offered) LT4 was offered in the Corvette..Grand Sport or Collectors Edition w/ 6 speed manual ONLY.

Not trying to bust you out, just clearing up the "dis-information".

Steven

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87 Fiero GT 14.9/ 93mph
94 Formula WS6 w/ NOS 12.4 /118mph
87 Conquest TSi
85.5 Starion ESi

I recieved info from Haltech concerning the Northstar in the Fiero. They said the Haltech E6K series programmable computer would work well with a Northstar setup in a Fiero. It can also be programmed to run a manual or automatic transmission. It can be modified via lap top computer endless amounts of times. Perfect for future mods. The price is 1145.00US which includes a non-finished harness, add another 150.00 and you get a terminated harness. www.haltech.com

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: 97 was the 1st yr for the LS1 in the Corvette 98 1st yr for the LS1 in the F-body 96 (and only yr the LT4 was offered) LT4 was offered in the Corvette..Grand Sport or Collectors Edition w/ 6 speed manual ONLY. Not trying to bust you out, just clearing up the "dis-information". Steven

To re-clear the mis-information
you could get an Lt4 in the regular vette.
(non gransport, non collectors edition) The grandsport had wider wheels and wheel well lips as well as the signature paint job ,and bigger front brakes, common conversion is swapping to grandsport brakes.

While a LT4 in a plain vette 6spd is rare , they do exist and they were produced as an option overthe Lt1 6spd

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Jonathan McCreery
86 GT 4spd
Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals..Autocrossed , Tracked , abused.

quote Originally posted by Will: Don't forget that an LT1 intake manifold can bolt on backwards and keep the intake in the same place as the stock Fiero V6, simplifying plumbing a little bit.

Whoever told you that is Way, Way, Wrong!

The only Chevy engine that you can do that to is the LS1.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: Whoever told you that is Way, Way, Wrong! The only Chevy engine that you can do that to is the LS1. Archie

OK Archie, then let's see one in a Fiero!

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88GT 5sp, in desperate need of an LT1
http://www.geocities.com/fiero88gt1/

quote Originally posted by Archie: Whoever told you that is Way, Way, Wrong! The only Chevy engine that you can do that to is the LS1. Archie

I have an LT1 with the plenum reversed sitting in my engine shed. It's the iron head version from a Caprice.

quote Originally posted by Will: I have an LT1 with the plenum reversed sitting in my engine shed. It's the iron head version from a Caprice.

Hehe....wait 'til you try to seal the end seals on the intake manifold.

It doesn't matter which heads are on the engine, the problem is with the end seals & they are the same on all LT1's.

I Don't have any pics. of an LT1 without and intake manifold right now, so I just went to EBay and borrowed this one. Check out the Arrows.... the end seals don't match from end to end..... turn the manifold around and it may bolt on but it won't seal.

Archie

Archie, try putting the lower intake on the normal way and the upper on backwards.

quote Originally posted by Pontiaddict: My post disappeared, let me know if it comes back. I said in it that it might be possible to turn the upper intake around and leave the lower like it was.

Hit the refresh button on your browser next time it disappears.

And to stay on topic I say go with the LT1. Unless you wanna save some money. Then I would go with a crate 350, and Accel's SuperRam fuel injection, or something similar. On second thought you would probably spend more money that way. Just go for the LT1.

quote Originally posted by Pontiaddict: Archie, try putting the lower intake on the normal way and the upper on backwards.

The LT1 intake is all one piece, there is not a seperate upper & lower intake.

If you guys are thinking that you can turn around the TPI system that preceeded the LT1, that won't work either.

If you'd like more LT1 (or TPI) pics. let me know, I'll be at the shop in an hour.

Archie

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I e-mailed ACE and here is what they say about the Northstar 5-speed.
"
Hello
We talked extensively with the N* engineers at G/M and they had stock
production engines in test mules running stick shift setups, they said that
it would work well with it and also the crank is drilled out for a
throw-out bearing.

We have not had any problems...

Rich at ACE"