I'm going to cover this V-8 swap on a day by day basis. The last V-8 swap I showed you was done "live" in that I posted progress everyday. I did that not knowing how close to schedule we would be or exactly how it would come out. I really knew it would come out good, I just didn't know how much or little "flogging" we would have to do to get it perfect. This swap has already been completed and the customer has been driving the car for about a month. He drove the car to Chicago with a 2.8 Turbo engine in it and drove it back to Napa, CA with the new engine in it. While we did his swap, he was here in Chicago visiting relatives and watching us do the V-8 swap. During that time I introduced him to PFF and he became a new member as a result. For now I'm only going to use his 1st name, Bob. He can introduce himself to you as he sees fit.

So, I'm going to report this swap to you daily as if in real time. This swap is a ZZ4 Chevy crate engine with TPI into a 1985 Fiero GT 4 speed with a Corson "Boxer" body kit on it. We actually started this swap one day before the customer arrived with his car. You see we wanted to get him back on the road home within 10 days and since we had the engine at the shop, we did a bunch of the work to the engine the day before he arrived. We started working on his engine on 9-10-01 & as it turned out he arrived on 9-11-01. Needless to say, with the insanity of 9-11, we did not work on his car that day.

Day #1 9-10-01… With the ZZ4 engine still sitting in it's crate we removed the black valve covers, water pump, original HBP & intake…. The valve covers will be replaced with chrome ones and everything else will be replaced with items I will be supplying. A lot of pre-assembly work can be done on the engine before you need the Fiero taken apart. Let's look…

Here is what it looks like naked with just our Flywheel bolted on.

Our CenterForce clutch.

The TPI base intake manifold, Chrome Valve covers, Clutch, headers & Engine/Transmission adapter plate installed.

The Starter, Remote Oil Filter, HBP & even the dipstick can be installed to the engine.

The victim arrives…..

Welcome, come on in, you'll never be the same.

Tomorrow, we do the nasty job of taking the thing apart.

Archie

Was the swap done with California emmissions requirements in mind? I would love to do this type of swap, but I would also love to drive the car for more than the two year interval between smog checks!

Chuck

Cool! I think it's a great idea to do it in "real time"......it's neat to see how things come together and how long it takes, etc.

The more I think about it the more I become inclined to do a SBC swap. I prefer fuel injection over a carb, so this swap will be of interest to me (more so than if it were another carb set-up).

Can you say what the final cost was? I know you probably hate that question, but I'm just curious to know what I'd be looking at if I were to go through with the swap.

Thanks and I look forward to the rest of this swap as it unfolds.

BTW.....is it just me or is that car dying to be lowered? It just sits too high for my tastes.

[This message has been edited by mrfiero (edited 10-25-2001).]

Wah hoo the movies startin.

Gotta get my popcorn...
Hope the sequel is as good as the original

That Archie is a great producer isn't he.

ARCHIE, boy that looks like a winner, what weight do you think front vercies rear and what trans are you going to use and expected quarter times. keep up the good work 85gted

BTW, we also did the 11.25" Big Brake conversion on this car while we were doing the V-8 swap. We will also look at that during this swap.

The car is not built to CA smog (although it should be pretty close) the owner, tells me that he has a home in NM and that is where he will be keeping it registered.

He originally built this car like 13 years ago and has been driving it, this is not a trailer queen.

He put the tall tires on for the trip to Chicago, everybody knows that you need to have tall tires to make it thru the Chicago chuck holes. The only time the highways in Chicago are smooth is when they have a sheet of ice on them.

Archie

Hey Archie,
Are you going to run into some problems with the header heating up the oil in that remote oil filter?

For those of you that don't know I am being a smart a$$. The remote oil filter will be mounted on the frame somewhere and Archie just rested it on the header to keep it out of the way.

Cool Archie! Nice that you do it part by part, I'm still a tech-newbie, so to see every part being put on the engine almost from scratch, makes me learn loads!

This is great! Wanted to get down in the front row for this, guess I will have to get here earlier at the next release.(Hey Hippocrat, take off your hat or scrunch down in your seat, can't see!(that's a joke son)).

Archie, after you get done with 10 or so of these productions, you should have everything organized enough for the hardback edition to go to press. You could make a bundle from even partial publishing rights! (Hot Rod Mag. could sponsor,or maybe Kitcar?)How about a guest spot once a month on one of the syndicated automotive tv shows?(Hot Rod Mag.TV, Crank&Chrome, etc.) Just some thoughts.

For now we here at PFF are privy to some priceless information and instruction from the most experienced installer on the planet and we are paying attention.

Go Achie..go Archie.

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Have a good one!

LET'S GET IT ON!!!!!

I am very interested in the TPI setup and big brakes.
Did you ever get brackets made for the 88's. they would make a nice Xmas gift for me from santa.

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JOEJOE Aol:SSFiero
88FORMULA
SSFiero@Aol.com

"The car is not built to CA smog (although it should be pretty close) the owner, tells me that he has a home in NM and that is where he will be keeping it registered."

Sorry, Archie - with the carb referees pretty
close is a ten-mile miss.

This is what I've been waiting for! I really want to see how the TPI motor goes in too... (anxiously awaiting next update...)

ahh hell!! JUST post the whole story now!! I can't wait!

That engine looks SCHEWEEET!

------------------
www.fieroworld.com The place to go for Fiero INFO!
Home of my 87 GT and 85 GT
Justin C.
Engineer, Designer and
Technical Trainer for Nortel Networks Business Products.

Hey, Archie!

Any chance that any or all of the leftovers (the turbo'd 2.8) is for sale? I wouldn't mind putting a turbo on my 2.8 until I can do the V8 thing.

Cheers,
Scott

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Scott Rigdon
1988 Fiero GT, Black, 5-speed
38,000 Original Miles!
Web Site: http://www.RigdonHome.com/
Story of buying my Fiero: http://www.RigdonHome.com/cars/88_Fiero_GT/14_hours_in_a_fiero.htm

quote Originally posted by Orville: "Sorry, Archie - with the carb referees pretty close is a ten-mile miss.

This thread is not about what it takes to pass CA smog. That topic can & has been discussed in length in other threads.

This car is being built with a ZZ4 crate engine, with complete dual exhaust (w/2 cats.) and no smog pump. I have several customers who have made their V-8 cars CA legal and from what they've told me you need a production engine, single exhaust with only one cat & a smog pump.

If you have a problem with the carb referees, then you either work with them or work to change the system out there. Or you could stay with a stock engine.

This swap would pass in virtually all of the other 49 states & with a little advance planning it could be built to do the CA thing. However, because of this customers' situation smog did not have to be a consideration.

Archie

I'd register it in NM too!
Looks nice, what are the specs of that engine (flywheel)?
What part of NM?

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Day #2 9-12-01…

Day #2 finds us taking out the old Fiero Engine, this is probably the worst part of the whole process. You always run into the unknown history of your Fiero here. This car was from the SouthWest and was also well maintained and was easier to dis-assemble than most 16 year old Fieros I've seen. Good deal for us, there are no frozen or stripped bolts on this car.

We've removed the Rear clip of the Corson body kit and started removing all the items we can reach from the top. It's easier to remove this stuff now while the car is still on the floor. We can remove the throttle and cruise cables, battery, dog bone, air cleaner, coolant & heater hoses etc. The slave cylinder has been removed from it's bracket on the transmission but has been left connected to the hyd. Line & tied up out of the way. The wire harness has been disconnected from the ECM and laid on top of the engine. We removed the inside console to get to and disconnect the harness from the ECM.

It is easier to remove the harness, undamaged, from the engine once we get the assembly out of the car.

Now we'll get the car up in the air and remove/disconnect items from underneath. This car has a good fully charged & operational A/C system so we don't remove the A/C compressor with the engine. Instead we will be leaving it in the car and fitting it to the new engine during one of the trial fit sessions.

When we remove the engine/cradle assembly, we will also be removing the suspension system with it. Here we remove the calipers from the spindles and hang them safely out of the way.

With the car up on the jackstands, we connect the overhead hoist for support and get ready to lower the assembly out of the car.

Here is the whole thing out of the car. We can now remove the exhaust system, the wire harness & the suspension. We then can remove the engine/transmission assy. From the cradle then remove the transmission from the engine.

This is the "Extra" parts we have to get rid of.

Then we get to clean, prep & paint the engine compartment and engine cradle & clean and paint the original 4 speed transmission.

Tomorrow, we get to go back to the fun part of putting together all the nice new clean parts that we've gathered together for this engine swap.

We'll see you then…….

Archie

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Just how fast do you want to go?

Great "Episdode". Good pics, concise narrative, maybe your missed your calling Archie, you could have been in Hollywood!

Do you preassure wash anything while apart? Engine bay, cradle? Do you use any special paint on the stuff you redo while apart?

Does the stock throttle cable get used?

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Have a good one!

[This message has been edited by Sage (edited 10-27-2001).]

"This thread is not about what it takes to pass CA smog. That topic can & has been discussed in length in other threads."

źou're right. And let me say that since I've
been a forum member I've always enjoyed your
threads and posts. You're always interesting
and informative; an asset to the Fiero
enthusiast community.

But Chuckvh asked a question and you answered.
I supposed that might have permitted a brief,
cautionary comment.

"This car is being built with a ZZ4 crate engine, with complete dual exhaust (w/2 cats.) and no smog pump. I have several customers who have made their V-8 cars CA legal and from what they've told me you need a production engine, single exhaust with only one cat & a smog pump."

Depends on the donor vehicle. Unfortunately,
because the regulations are vague and not
well delineated, it also depends on Bureau-
cratic whim and indulgence. And their
bias is against passing engine swaps.

"If you have a problem with the carb referees, then you either work with them or work to change the system out there. Or you could stay with a stock engine."

Anyone doing or contemplating an upgrade
engine swap in California as well as any
business doing Fiero engine swaps for
California customers has a potential problem
with the carb referee process.

Thanks for the space, Archie.

Meanwhile, back at Archie's engine swap ranch
.....

Hey Archie, I see you post it in # of days. How much hours per day, on average, do you work on this one project then?

Day #2 9-13-01…

Alright, this is where the fun part begins. We have a nice big collection of some of the best parts you can get your hands on & now we get to play with them.

Here we've bolted the engine & transmission together and are about to set them on the engine cradle for the 1st time.

With the engine/trans. Assembly mounted to the engine cradle we can begin to fit all the other parts to complete this assembly. You'll notice that we are doing all this while the assy. is setting up on a pair of sawhorses. This is one of the things I like most about working on these Fiero engine swaps. On most engine swaps to other kinds of cars, you spend hours laying under the car or hanging over the fenders. On a Fiero V-8 swap, you spend maybe an hour under the car and another 2 hours reaching over the fender & you're done. Most of the time you spend on a Fiero V-8 swap you spend walking around and working on your engine/trans./cradle assy. Sitting up here on your "workbench" (sawhorses).

The HBP, Alternator and A/C compressor are mounted & the W/Pump is temporarily mounted so that we can trial fit the W/P drive. Also notice that we've mounted the remote oil filter mount to the engine cradle.

Here is the trial fit of the W/P drive. Yeap, this is the belt drive system that all those experts say won't work. Some people have used electric W/Pumps, which eliminates this setup.

All painted and pretty, she's all ready to go into the car for a trial fit.

Yes, a trial fit, even after doing all these V-8 swaps I still do trial fits, it only takes maybe 30 minutes to do a proper trial fit and I like EVERYTHING to be just right.

Archie

------------------
Just how fast do you want to go?

Ok i'll try to ask a few intelligent questions now. I see that you have an A/C compressor mounted to the engine but I thought you were leaving that attached to the car since the A/C had a good charge. Just wondering if there is a purpose for that. Also I am wondering about tensioning the belts. How does the belt that runs the alternator and compressor get tensioned. It looks as if the alternator is bolted solid to the bracket. Does the compressor move? Last question. Does the W/P belt need tensioned? If so how and if not why not?
Thanks

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: Ok i'll try to ask a few intelligent questions now. I see that you have an A/C compressor mounted to the engine but I thought you were leaving that attached to the car since the A/C had a good charge. Just wondering if there is a purpose for that. Also I am wondering about tensioning the belts. How does the belt that runs the alternator and compressor get tensioned. It looks as if the alternator is bolted solid to the bracket. Does the compressor move? Last question. Does the W/P belt need tensioned? If so how and if not why not? Thanks

Good questions.....The A/C compressor that we are using for this fitting is an extra one that I have laying around for trial fitting only. In this case we need to get the V belt aligned, so we use this extra Compressor for that purpose only. When we put the engine in for the last time we will leave this one off and mount the one that is still in the car once we get the engine in.

Tensioning the belts.... You'll notice that the alternator bracket that is bolted to the cylinder head and that it has a "Slot" at one of the mounting points. We use that slot to tension the belt.

The Water Pump belt is a cogged belt and it is not tensioned, the cogs will keep it from slipping.

Other questions that have been asked.....

Sage, yes we do power wash the cradle, transmission etc. and we use a good black enamal paint. In 99% of these swaps (if it's not damaged) we can & do use the stock throttle cable.

Orville, When I said "from what they've told me you need a production engine," I ment to say that the requirements are dictated by your engine choice. The term "production engine" means either a crate engine that was designated for a production vehicle or an engine removed from a production vehicle. In other words, I agree with your statement pertaining with this subject.

I hope this helps.

Archie

------------------
Just how fast do you want to go?

Couple of questions Archie. I noticed on your website you say you weld in the front engine mount. How do you replace the mount if it goes bad? Is it a solid mount? What am I missing here?

Also, when running the ZZ4 engine with TPI, do you notice much difference in power(either more or less). I'm considering the ZZ4 but need to be Federal Emissions compliant. If I'm going to loose a lot of power going with TPI, no reason to spend the money on a ZZ4 to begin with. Actually, I want a Fast Burn 385 with the Hot Cam, but I believe you said TPI won't work on it, nor would I be able to get it to pass emissions. Although, if you know how I can do that, please let me know!

One last question: How much weight difference is their on the V8's with Aluminum heads? Your website says about 100 lbs heavier than a V6 car, but I assume that's with an iron head engine.

Really enjoying the articles, Archie. I'm leaning more and more towards a V8 rather than a 3800SC every day. The big advantage the 3800SC had was ease of emissions and mileage. If emissions isn't a problem, then gas mileage is the only other advantage. I'm not about to let gas mileage be the deciding factor in my engine swap!

Archie;

Thanks for addressing everybody's questions. This thread keeps me checking the forum more than I would if it weren't on here. You are a true proffessional and I hope you will continue this series. This process has to be pretty much "routine" for you by now, but it is new and a source of wonderment and vital information for allot of us.

Thanks again and keep it coming.

------------------
Have a good one!

Archie,
I done my v8 swap from an 84 model 4cyl. Where do I find the A/C hoses that will fit to the compressor and car?

I made an improvement to the way the v belt is tightened with your alternator mount. It consist of a spacer to be mounted behind the alternator mounting plate in lieu of some of the washers you supplied with the kit. This spacer has a 1/4 inch grade 8 bolt tapped into the top of the plate next to the vavle cover and a hook washer to catch the top of your alternator mounting plate and pull down when the bolt is tightened. This causes the plate to move out and the belt to be tightened. It's been in use since February 1999 with no problems and makes the belt an easy chore to adjust tension. I'll send some pics and you can have this idea, if your interested. I appreciate the help give me and the continued help you offer everyone.

(Engineered Performance) I've got it all taken apart and we're waiting on the owner to decied if he wants to fix it right or just put the Fieroghini back together. (problematic wiring and lots of spare unused crap from the original V6.

thanks for all your clutch help!

Archie,
Quick question for ya,
With the use of your adapter plate does this affect the throw of the clutch?

To elaborate a little here incase that's not the right term.
The clutch and pressure plate are bolted to the engine.
The throw bearing pushes the pressure plate.
Doesn't the adapter lengthen the distance that bearing has to travel? or is there enough play in the distance that these bearings can travel?

Or is the distance compensated with a combination of pressure plate and bearing you use?

If any of this (or all ) doesn't make sense, please let me know Ill explain it differently.
If anyone else knows what I am saying but could explain it properly .. please do.

Again thanx for doing these threads, they are extremely informative and fun to follow

[This message has been edited by Hippocrat (edited 10-30-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Sage: For now we here at PFF are privy to some priceless information and instruction from the most experienced installer on the planet and we are paying attention. Go Achie..go Archie.

I think that Archie deserves a lot of respect. His conversions are first rate and I am always anxious to see him to the next one, and the next one, and so on and so on!!

Great job again Archie!

Sly

quote Originally posted by Hippocrat: Archie, Quick question for ya, With the use of your adapter plate does this affect the throw of the clutch? .]

I understand your Question & it's a good one.

You are correct the adapter plate thickness would change the dynamics of the clutch. So when I designed my kit I custom designed the Flywheel to actually extend into the Fiero bellhousing. In other words with my F/W & adapter plate, the clutch surface of the Flywheel is the same depth into the Fiero bellhousing as the original Fiero unit was. That way all the clutch linkage etc. is the same.

Archie

Do you need a Harmonic balancer or is the pulley in your kit a balancer/pulley in one?
From the pic it looks like its just a pulley.

Sorry, I missed posting up to this thread last night...... been pretty busy..... so here is the next edition.

Day #4… 9-14-01

As you can see there is quite a bit of room on both the front and rear sides of the engine. I've measured it and found that the total width of the Chevy engine with the exhaust manifolds on it is an inch narrower that the Fiero 2.8 with the Fiero exhaust manifolds on it.

Now this is the first view of the underside of the assembly in the Fiero. Now remember that this is a trial fit….. the whole assembly will be removed from the car and final cleaning, painting and assembly will be done before it is re-installed into the Fiero for the last time.

Note because of a disc problem, I've had to make a few of these pics from video tape.

After final assy. The engine cradle assy. Is ready to reinstall into the Fiero.

The engine compartment was also cleaned and painted.

We are putting the cradle assembly back into the Fiero for the last time.

Next, we will be doing the assy. Of the injection and wiring.

Stay tuned.

Archie

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Just how fast do you want to go?

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-31-2001).]

*bump* ...still watching and waiting...

Thanks for another great episode, Archie! I imagine with the engine being a bit narrower than the Fiero 2.8, it could actually be easier to service. What a concept! I guess the hard part would be anything on the front of the engine (alt, wp, etc.). Any special concerns for maintenance? I know on some swaps (3.4TDC for example) you have to drop the cradle just to change spark plugs. That's crazy. I'd want something that's as serviceable as the factory engine.

Archie, thanks for posting this project. I really enjoy seeing what's all involved in a V8 swap, and it helps keep my ethusiasm up for my car.

for archie or anyone who's done it.

do you always pull out the insulation in the engine compartment. is it noisier? would something like truck bedliner be good or nesessary?

I've taken out some of the insulation on both Fieros I've had. I leave the piece on the firewall, but remove the pieces covering the sides and shock towers. It's much easier to keep the engine compartment clean and I can't tell any difference in noise.

------------------
Rod Schneider, Woodstock, Ga.
White 88 GT :)

quote Originally posted by Philphine: for archie or anyone who's done it. do you always pull out the insulation in the engine compartment. is it noisier? would something like truck bedliner be good or nesessary?

I saw NO noise difference when I removed mine.

If you do mods in yo8ur engine compartment, be careful, I did a cold air intake and the insulation on the left side was held in by that canister, it came off and hit my exhaust manifold and smouldered, I caught it in time.

It's more of a pain. Get it outta there.