Napa now sells FR 12. It replaces R-12 OR R-134a with no modifications to system at all. You should remove all previous freon before refilling, but they say its not necessary. Law says they cant be mixed. According to them its almost as cool as R-12 and much cooler than 134a. for full details and filling go to
http://www.refimax.com

or call 1-800 / 406-2292

Wow! What a coincidence! I was just running searches on converting the system to use R134a.

I haven't checked out the website yet. Is this stuff environmentally friendly?

Unless they have made some change in it chemically......you won't find an auto tech worth his salt that will use it.

It's corrosive and will eventually damage your system to the point of no return. This means replacing every piece from the condenser to the compressor....VERY VERY EXPENSIVE.

My advice is STAY FAR FAR AWAY.
R134a works great even at idle if you install a variable load orifice tube when you convert it. I've personally done hundreds myself and never had a complaint that it wasn't cool enough! It was 100 degrees plus this week in this area.

WOOPS......I thought FR12 was Freezone or Freeze12.......maybe they should use a diff name to avoid confusion. I HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS PRODUCT BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE. Sorry for the confusion.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

[This message has been edited by GTDude (edited 07-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Unless they have made some change in it chemically......you won't find an auto tech worth his salt that will use it. It's corrosive and will eventually damage your system to the point of no return. This means replacing every piece from the condenser to the compressor....VERY VERY EXPENSIVE. My advice is STAY FAR FAR AWAY. R134a works great even at idle if you install a variable load orifice tube when you convert it. I've personally done hundreds myself and never had a complaint that it wasn't cool enough! It was 100 degrees plus this week in this area. Phil

I'd have to agree with Phil on the information that he provided about FR-12. It also is sold under the names Autofrost, Autofreeze, Freeze 12 and several other name brands. Yes it will blow cold with FR-12 but as Phil pointed out, this comes at a high cost. Another bad thing about this stuff is that it is a multicomponent gas not a single uniform gas. If you develop a slight leak the lighter gases leak out and the heavier gases remain in the system. You can't just add more FR-12 and have the same mixture makeup. You'll need to drain, and recycle the remaining old stuff which is now useless ( and whos going to take it?) and then evacuate every time you recharge for it to work again.
R-134A is a proven and safe refrigerant to use. Thats why all of the major automakers use it. I didn't use the variable flow orifice tube recommended by Phil but have still achieved great results with an R-134A retrofit. A slight adjustment of the low pressure switch was all that it took to get the proper low side pressures of about 21-25 psi. My Fiero A/C blows ice cold on the warmest days. The exiting air flow may not be quite as cold as the old R-12 systems were at idle but it still gets so cold that the system needs to be turned down. That's cold enough for my taste. My advise is to forget about those direct fill "snake oil" products and use R-134A. Do the job the right way not the quick way and the system will last.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

Ditto's, Stay far far away from the blends.

Federal law REQUIRES that each refrigerant have UNIQUE fittings, that kinda blows the drop in replacement part huh?

If you skip this step, the poor shmuck that hooks up to his machine without an identifier will instantly contaminat his tank. The tech that knows better and uses a refrigerant identifier will laugh and send you packing or charge you a fortune to dispose of it since it can NOT be recycled. He is required to have a seperate tank just to store that crap in and a seperate machine to do it with.

R-134a is cheap, R-12 is rapidly DROPPING in price do to demand dropping rapidly. The only thing these blends have had to pass is an EPA SNAP test which says they are CFC free. It doesn't mean they work, it doesn't mean they won't explode, it doesn't mean they are not corrosive. It just means they pass ONE of the criteria that a cooling system manufacturer looks for.

Oh yeah... when you compressor fails etc.. and you try to get it warrantied, the manufacturer will deny it when they discover it's been running a blend.

On the subject of variable orifices, if you need better cooling after a r134a conversion, try it, they work.

first you guys all need to get the facts straight by reading beforehand.

this is completely environmentaly safe, will not affect any compontents of either system, and will install in either system.

R12is the best cooling, hands down. Ive got several vehicles with 134a and they all suck at cooling in traffic where you need it the most. They may cool adequately driving at 60 mph, but def not at idle or slow driving. My van which has front & rear air, and has been checked and serviced by the dealers several times WONT keep the interior cool in town. I been driving a friends S10 Blazer and its the same way. Maybe just bareable. I usually end up rolling the windows down when its 90* to cool off. Or if its hot, I make sure to drive the Ferraro with R-12.

where can on aquire said variable orifice?

84Bill.....most parts suppliers can get it or have it. Also, most of them have never heard of it.....LOL. I doubt that you could find one at Autozone or Advance without much explaining and hassle. Try NAPA...they are parts professionals. Even if they haven't heard of it, tell them to look in the illustration book and they will find it there, close to the regular orifice tube. It's not made only for R134a but I highly advise using it for proper low speed operation of the cooling system. Also, don't forget that most often the pressure cycling switch needs to be adjusted to achieve the correct pressure with an R134a system.....something few autotechs do.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: first you guys all need to get the facts straight by reading beforehand. this is completely environmentaly safe, will not affect any compontents of either system, and will install in either system. R12is the best cooling, hands down. Ive got several vehicles with 134a and they all suck at cooling in traffic where you need it the most. They may cool adequately driving at 60 mph, but def not at idle or slow driving. My van which has front & rear air, and has been checked and serviced by the dealers several times WONT keep the interior cool in town. I been driving a friends S10 Blazer and its the same way. Maybe just bareable. I usually end up rolling the windows down when its 90* to cool off. Or if its hot, I make sure to drive the Ferraro with R-12.

There is no argument that an R-12 system will be colder than one with R-134A. However, a PROPERLY running (or converted and adjusted retrofit) R-134A system will work perfectly fine. My air outlet temperature is around 40-42* w R-134A. It keeps the Fiero cockpit nice and cold on the hottest days in NJ. My 97 Monte Carlo 3100 also has an R-134A system and it too works well and keeps the rather large interior comfortable. Now if you live in Az in the desert or in Death Valley the results may be different.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

From what I understand, Freeze 12 is a mixture of R12, R134a, and R142b. It is not corrosive.

There ARE snake oil products made of butane, propane, and other flammable gases I don't want in my car, but Freeze 12 is NOT one of them.

From: http://www.lenzdist.com/FrigcFAQ.html

What is FRIGC (FR-12)?

It is a blend of three components: R-134a (59%), R-124 (39.5%) and R-600 (1.5%). It is an enhanced version of R-134a, which more closely matches R-12 performance and pressures. This enhancement improves system performance and durability while simplifying the conversion process and overall costs.

Is a license needed to purchase or install FRIGC (FR-12)?

Yes. A mechanic must show valid A/C certification from an EPA accepted training program to purchase FR-12 or any other approved alternative. A copy of this certification must be kept on file by the seller, the same as is done with R-12 sales.

FR-12 is accepted under the USEPA SNAP (Significant New Alternatives Program) program for both mobile and stationary applications. It is accepted subject to the following use conditions: the vehicle must have unique fittings installed on service ports and the existing label must be replaced with a new "retrofit" label.

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Also, don't forget that most often the pressure cycling switch needs to be adjusted to achieve the correct pressure with an R134a system.....something few autotechs do.

How do you adjust the pressure cycling switch?

My experience agrees with Roger. I retro-fitted my XJ-6 with r134 and in traffic, the A/C was about as good as having the windows down. But in my XJR (which was designed for the r134a), the air from the ducts feels like I have my refrigerator/freezer door open. I'll use the Freeze12 in my Ferraro (there's 1 can in there already) if I can ever figure out why there is no power to the A/C compressor. If you guys are worried about corrosion, I'd be more concerned with using that orange extended life coolant (the stuff that says "for 1996 and later cars with aluminum radiators" on the label)....

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 07-11-2002).]

I tend to agree with the one person about 12 coming down in price. The last one I did I
replaced the o rings, made sure everything was tight vacuum, oil and it still is keeping cool.

I won't use or recomend blends. not ever.

Regardless of initial performance... all blends have a major problem.

The problem is this:

All MVAC systems leak at least a little bit.

Lighter chemicals will leak faster than heaiver ones.

There is no way to predict how a blend will degrade over time or what if any damage to the system may result.

There is NO way to be sure what the composition of a blend is over time. As a result, the ONLY way you can return a blend to its original formula is to replace ALL of it. In Other Words... You can't "top off" a blend system and get back to original performance.

Blends are not reusable or recyclable. They have to be sent for disposal under EPA regulations, which is expencive. U.S. Shops that don't do this are in violation of Federal laws and can be put out of bussiness or have people end up in jail. Fines for illegal AC work are amazingly high. Shops that install refrigerants that are not DOT compliant can face similar problems. Just because a refrigerant passed the EPA SNAP program does NOT mean it is legal for use in a motor vehicle.

R12 and R134 are both monolithic, comprised of a single refrigerant. Either one can be recycled/reused reliably. You can "top off" either and get original performance.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

quote Originally posted by summerjim: How do you adjust the pressure cycling switch?

On all but 88's between the 2 terminals there is a screw, for R-134a just turn it counter-clockwise 1/8 of a turn at a time until your compressor cycles off at 21-23 and on at 46-47. Some very late production 87's and 88's don't have an adjustable switch but it's a straight swap for the older design.

That adjustment only applies to clutch cycling systems like the HR6 and DA6 systems.

V5 systems don't have a clutch cycling switch.