I was wondering if anyone has swaped out the OEM front sway bar from our beloved Fiero's , and replaced it with a front sway bar from an Astro Van ? Is it possible ? Will it work ? How does it handle ? Is it a lot of work ? Is it a " Plug-an-Play " ? Is there a certain year Astro Van that you need to get the front sway bar from ? And yes I did a search , didn't find anything on this topic . Thanks .

Galen Smith
Red 85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club

[This message has been edited by fierogsmith (edited 07-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by fierogsmith (edited 07-15-2002).]

Go to [url]https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/019667.html [/url] and check out Gridlock (Trev) he told me about the swap.

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Ira Crummey
1984 econo coupe
1985 coupe
The Iron Duke Resource Site

Hey Ira , thanks for the heads up in regard to Gridlocks idea about the Astro Van front sway bar . That's where I got the idea about this seperate post . I left a message on that " Rear Sway Bar " post for him . Thanks Again .

Galen Smith
Red 85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club

Well I'm not positive about the front bar, but I do know for a fact that the person to talk to about this would be 'SlammedFiero'. He has experience using the Astro bar, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving you a hand.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Well I'm not positive about the front bar, but I do know for a fact that the person to talk to about this would be 'SlammedFiero'. He has experience using the Astro bar, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving you a hand.

Hey Thanks , if Slammedfiero dosen't respond to this post I'll give him a yell .

Galen Smith
Red 85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club

I used the astrovan bar on the rear. it measures 1.25" over the usual 1.00" bars that are on the market. I run a 1"00 up front and a 1.25" rear. I don't know why you would want a bigger bar on the front. but it may not hurt to experiment. I have seen mid engine/ rear engine cars run big bars up front and no bar in the rear. I found the car responded much better with the 1" on the front.

I will get some pics up soon of my rear bar conversion. I also runa set of custom milled Aluminum bushings with a grease nipple and galley machined in. It makes for such a smooth caddy like ride..HAHA. These were left overs from a corvair project.

JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 07-16-2002).]

Usually there is a bigger bar up front. The reason is that when you are putting power to the rear wheels and the road is uneven you would need less anti sway to put the power down. The steering wheels are somewhat less sensitive to uneven roads and so you can put a bigger bar up front. This is evidenced by the fact that most cars do not even have a rear sway bar. Also, in off on/off road racing the rear sway bar is often disconnected at one side if the roads are rough, if they are really extreme the front bar gets disconnected. Where roads are completly flat race cars will often have a solid sway mechanism as opposed to a torsional bar in back. Bottom line is that a 1.25 rear bar is incredibly stiff under such a light load and traction would be impaired on even slightly rough roads.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I used the astrovan bar on the rear. it measures 1.25" over the usual 1.00" bars that are on the market. I run a 1"00 up front and a 1.25" rear. I don't know why you would want a bigger bar on the front. but it may not hurt to experiment. I have seen mid engine/ rear engine cars run big bars up front and no bar in the rear. I found the car responded much better with the 1" on the front. I will get some pics up soon of my rear bar conversion. I also runa set of custom milled Aluminum bushings with a grease nipple and galley machined in. It makes for such a smooth caddy like ride..HAHA. These were left overs from a corvair project. JM [This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 07-16-2002).]

Thanks for posting Slammed Fiero .I was looking for a cheap way to upgrade my front sway bar , without having to spend a small fortune for an after market front sway bar .I had read that you shouldn't use the same size sway bars on the front and rear , that you should use a larger size sway bar on the front , both of mine are the same size .I haven't had any problem running with the same size sway bars .

I've installed a rear sway bar useing a front sway bar from one of my boneyard Fiero's .It was the cheapest and easiest upgrade that I've done yet on my 85 Sport Coupe .The difference in handling was like night and day .I can carry more speed into a corner ,brake latter , and hit the gas sooner coming out of the corner .This is the way these cars were ment to handle .Absolutely love the way it handles now .

I'm basicly an " Ole Time Hot Rodder ", I want to go fast but I want to go as inexpensive as possible .

I'm looking forward to seeing your set up useing the Astro Van sway bar .Thanks .

Galen Smith
Red 85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club

a Bigger bar on the front works well with Front engine Rear drive cars. But mid/rear engined cars respond best with Big bar int he rear , small bar upfront. The front suspension on the 84 to 87 cars needs to be kept soft to work. We run similar setups on our 911 and corvairs.

I run 325Lbs coilovers in rear with Koni's and stock springs up front , 1.25" bar in the rear , 1.0" up front. The car has a touch of oversteer. To get rid of it for the track I run a 1" bar , this yields a completyley neutral setup. For a bit more understeer I can swap to an early 84 20mm Bar.

All depends on how you like the car setup

JM

So, let me follow this line of thinking...if you can use a stock bar in the rear and an Astro van bar up front, you can reverse them (for the street?) My coupe may never see the track, mostly street but with bigger/wider rear tires and eventually a Cadillac V8 in the rear I'm thinking this will be a GOOD thing.

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John DuRette
85 SE

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: a Bigger bar on the front works well with Front engine Rear drive cars. But mid/rear engined cars respond best with Big bar int he rear , small bar upfront. The front suspension on the 84 to 87 cars needs to be kept soft to work. We run similar setups on our 911 and corvairs. I run 325Lbs coilovers in rear with Koni's and stock springs up front , 1.25" bar in the rear , 1.0" up front. The car has a touch of oversteer. To get rid of it for the track I run a 1" bar , this yields a completyley neutral setup. For a bit more understeer I can swap to an early 84 20mm Bar. All depends on how you like the car setup JM

This is definetely turning into an interesting consideration , I'm also learning
stuff , not bad . So as it stands now my best bet is to leave the sway bar set up I now have on my 85 Sport Coupe or install a larger sway bar on the rear .As I mentioned before both my sway bars are the same .(Stock Fiero Front sway bars ).

Thanks for the information about the sway bar set ups on mid-engine cars ,when I stopped and thought about it , it made a hell of a lot of sense .

Galen Smith
Red 85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club

Hold on there guys, lets not confuse seat of the pants feel and theory. janice_ho is closest to the mark. Car companies build most of there cars with some understeer in order to make the car more forgiving for the average driver. This is why most cars come with a front sway bar, some roll stiffness is desired so put it on the end which will result in understeer.

1. The end of the car with the greatest mass will want to travel in a straight line when a turn is encountered (inertia). With no sway bars and equal spring rates front and rear the result would be that front engined cars will understeer and rear engined cars will oversteer IN THEORY, (remember that other factors such as suspension design, alignment and tires are equally important). The early VW Rabbit set new standards for FWD handling by adding roll stiffness at the rear only which brings us to the next point.

2. The end of the car with the greatest roll stiffness will do more of the cornering work. That means that a large front bar will cause understeer and a large rear bar will cause oversteer, if the weight distribution is 50%/50% that is. VW took an extremely nose heavy car and added a twist beam axle at the rear which acted as a sway bar, with no front bar the VW tilted at some rather extreme angles during cornering and lifted the inside rear wheel, BUT the understeer was far less then most FWD of its time.

As you can see, weight distribution and roll stiffness are the main factors in the understeer oversteer issue (yes I know I am oversimplifying but we can’t look at too many variables at once.)

My point is that a larger rear bar on a rear heavy car will result in oversteer, a condition which most of us would be very uncomfortable with. Those who like the loose feel and have the reflexes to handle the occasional side step at the rear go ahead, but for the rest of us who drive on the street only and do not race a little understeer is a good thing.

One last point, high powered trans am racers of the early 70s often found that roll stiffness in the rear, although it made the handling more neutral, actually slowed them down because they would loose traction in turns. Many actually used what was called a Z bar which actually promoted roll at the rear in order to keep both wheels firmly planted to the track so that they could get the power down. This is an extreme case which is not applicable on the street but I thought it might be of interest.

Monza76 --

Thank you for a rational explanation.

Welcome to the forum, BTW. I hope someday to see another "Fiero on the Rock" web site.

I didn't know that Z-bars were used on Trans-Am racers. I remember them -- "camber compensators" -- on Formula Vees and Spitfires.

Edit --

Oh, wait! I just read the signature in your earlier post. There is a new, improved site!

[This message has been edited by MrPBody (edited 07-16-2002).]

Taking a look a slammed's setup, he has Koni shocks and a lot more suspension mods than just a sway bar. My laymans understanding of suspension tells me a larger bar up front will maintain but improve the handling, not change it all together. On another note, take a look at the bushings on the origional front sway bar. If they're toast, just their replacement will make a huge improvement.

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"You obviously have a great economy with words, I look forward to your next syllable with great eagerness"

Keep in mind that there is more than one driving style. The larger rear bar gives a looser rear, and the individuals that like to kick the rear end out and throttle steer through a corner, or do a 4 wheel drift on concrete, love this set-up. Herb Adams raced Fieros quite successfully with this arrangement. As does Tom Hill.

Then there are those that like a firmly planted drive, turn the wheel and go there, no drifting, and no sliding. I will interject here that this is my driving style, and a larger front bar is more conducive to this driving style. When I corner, my car is very straight forward - it doesn't push, and it doesn't drift - it goes where you point it. I could be accelerating, I could be decelerating - - it goes where I point it. That is not to say I can't throttle steer - - I can. But I have to "force" the tail end out to do it. Now, suffice to say that I am not a National Champion driver by any means - - but you will find both driving styles in the National Champion classification, in any case.

I feel that when a person has to ask how to make their Fiero handle better, they are pretty new to performance driving, or at least new to the rear or mid engined car. Take that same inexperienced driver and put a huge rear bar and small front bar on their Fiero, it is my contention that he or she could easily get into trouble.ESPECIALLY ON THE STREET!!

A rear or mid engined car handles completely different than either a front driver or front engine/rear drive (which is the easiest combo to drive fast, IMO) and if a novice tried to drive a Fiero fast in the same manner as they did with these configurations with the larger bar setup, it could get interesting (to say the least) The larger front bar/smaller rear bar makes the Fiero drive better than stock but maintains the same driving characteristics - -and a novice needs to start there (IMO).

Looking back in the archives at the responses I find that I have always responded to the question about making the Fiero drive better in this manner: "I would recommend that you START (emphasis mine) with the following setup - - - " Again, I take the approach that we are talking to a relative newbie either to performance driving, or to the Fiero (otherwise, they wouldn't be asking, now would they?).

There is no right or wrong here, just a matter of experience level and preferences. The only thing I think I can say with a degree of certainty is that if you really want to screw up the balance of a Fiero, equalize the bars (use the same size front and rear).

Thanks G..

My car basically handles nothing like a stock Fiero. Yes Manufacturers dial in Understeer to keep people out of trouble , everyone does it from porsche to Pontiac. But in pontiacs case how much understeer is needed!! The car as it sits has a 1" bar front , 1" bar rear. I was doing a track event and wanted the car as neutral as possible. This includes setting the Koni's at a 1/4 turn from full hard ont he rear. This yields a perfectly neutral car , no understeer , no oversteer. You can confidently drift the car through corners at 55+Mph.

Now for an autocross we want a different beast. Crank up the koni's in the back , swap to the 1.25" bar. Now we have a car that we can induce oversteer on regaurdless of the lack lustre 2.8. This setup also includes backing off the front swaybar. By this I mean loosening the endlinks. The looser they are , the later the car will react. So If I want more understeer I can crank it right up..if I want more oversteer I loosen it right off. It all depends on where we are running too. Certian surfaces have a tendancy to react differently. A sticky concrete airstrip likes a neutral car , you can push the car alot harder on street tires and get results. Now on your typical road type surface you will slip due to the adhesion of the tires to the pavement no matter what.

I hate understeer , it's frustrating. Oversteer you can work with. Understeer requires slowing down. In the case of our corvair (highly successful) the car is setup completley neutral 100% of the time. The only thing you worry about is how fast you can turn the wheels , point hte car and it will go there. The 911 is a lot like the Fiero. The bars are adjustable. The Koni yellows are full hard on the rear with the bar set hard , and the front is set slightly softer. The car also has a certian degree of rake to move the center point forward (weight bias) more weight on the front wheels helps to dial out understeer and twitchy tendancy's. But this does not mean you need to add weight to the front of a Fiero , it will do nothing but make the car steer like a pig.

This is all dependant on what driving style you like. With the Fiero I like it completley neutral on the track , the car isn't powerful enough to get into too much trouble. In the case of the 911 I am aprehensive to push it to 10/10ths so I like my understeer a wee bit. As for the corvair ,you can drive it like a madman and it gives you a total sense of confidence. All three cars share trailing throttle oversteer , but on the corvair it's virtually non existant , on the 911 it becomes a tool for getting around the cones and onthe Fieor it's a friggin nussance , if it bites you , your out of luck

JM

Personalyl I run a stock 7/8ths bar front and rear and love the feeling of the car. I am a big proponent of the bigger rear bar. We have weight in the rear and not so much in the front. With the 7/8 on both plus having the same size tires front and rear with a V6 4spd the car seems pretty neutral unless you brake hard and crank the wheels in a corner you can usually get at least one of the fronts to lock up and slide in a corner.

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David hotrodfiero@shaw.ca
85GT 2.9 4spd

I have WS6 front bars at each end of my '87, acting through rod-end links. However the link setup on my rear bar increases swaybar effectiveness by 40% over the conventional mounting method. I have stock springs all around, original struts in back and kyb's up front. In terms of balance, it's probably like Slammed's AutoX setup. It's fun in that you have to drive it bravely and stay on the gas through a corner to plant the rear. It is demanding of driver talent, though. If you overcook it going into a corner, you'll lose a lot of time, or you'll do some 360's and lose a lot of time.

Slammed: How are your rear end links set up?

I've got a set of coil overs and 300# springs for the rear. Will installing those without changing the front make the car intollerably loose? I'm no going to change more than one thing at a time, but I would like to know what to expect.

Will hits the issue I was trying to make a point on. Too much rear roll stiffness in a car with a rearward weight bias is a recipe for oversteer. This can be lots of fun but it can be very dangerous for an experienced driver or one who has driven FWDs for years. Personally I would prefer to reduce understeer, but not eliminate it. That is why I would be very interested in finding a larger bar for the front, at junkyard prices to fit my budget, before I go adding a rear bar.

I'd think it will definitely make it looser. Now the question is, how much is intolerable to you?

I always find these discussions interesting in that handling is such a personal thing. With the exception of simple G measurements on a skidpad, there really is no way to "measure" how well a car handles. Cone runs and autocross are so driver dependent that it makes measurement very hard indeed. The best autocross drivers could probably beat me handily in a bone stock Fiero while I was driving something fully prepped for autocross. There IS that much difference in drivers.

Our car has poly all around, including cradle, bump steer correction kit, all new ball joints and tie rod ends, KYB front and rear, Eibach springs, and stock Fiero sway bars front and rear. I find, for ME, it handles delightfully. One change I would love to make is (shudder) a good, tight power steering rack, but other than that I love the feel. It is about as neutral as it could possibly be with maybe just a TOUCH of a tendency to oversteer.

Now if I was to change any one of these components, like rubber instead of poly, or Koni instead of KYB, my results could be quite different

Slammed has the right technique. You make changes then take it out and drive it. You'll find that some changes are more appropriate for some changes than others are and he adjusts accordingly. That's the way it's done. There is no ONE BEST way of setting up a car. Even the day, and time of day, make it handle differently. Personally, I like the feel of the Fiero with equal size bars. You may not. Try it and see, it's not that tough to change if you don't like it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Will: I have WS6 front bars at each end of my '87, acting through rod-end links. However the link setup on my rear bar increases swaybar effectiveness by 40% over the conventional mounting method. I have stock springs all around, original struts in back and kyb's up front. In terms of balance, it's probably like Slammed's AutoX setup. It's fun in that you have to drive it bravely and stay on the gas through a corner to plant the rear. It is demanding of driver talent, though. If you overcook it going into a corner, you'll lose a lot of time, or you'll do some 360's and lose a lot of time. Slammed: How are your rear end links set up? I've got a set of coil overs and 300# springs for the rear. Will installing those without changing the front make the car intollerably loose? I'm no going to change more than one thing at a time, but I would like to know what to expect.

This is what I have learned from 5 years or so of autocrossing the car , being on the racing list and talking to people. This is for the 84's to 87's.

First year out Andy bettencourt a very successful Fieor racer and multiple national autocross champ told me the basic secret to getting a Fiero to handle well. The front suspension is primative at best , The 66 corvair I have in the garage has a better front end setup. So inorder to get it to work we need to keep it soft.

Keep the front soft and the rear hard.

With that said , I have found you need a certian spread between the front and rear setup. There is a sweet spot in the setup. Lets take george Ryans autocrosser 4.9 for example. This car weighs basically the same as any other fiero give or take a few Lbs. He runs a 400Lbs Coilover setup in the rear with eibach springs up front. Stock springs come in around 160-180Lbs rate up front. eibachs are around 210-225Lbs from what I understand.

Now My car runs a 325Lbs rear coilover setup with stock springs cut 1 coil (almost finished my dropped spindle install) So we have a 325Lbs rear rate and a 180 aprox front rate. See the correlation between the 2 setups?

This is where you run into problems with aftermarket springs like Eiabchs and ST's The front and rear spread isn't there. The rates are very close to each other. This is good for a person looking for improved looks and better cornering. But on an autocross or track you still have all of the Fiero's inherient handling problems , they just don't rear their ugly head until pushed a little harder.

The spring rates front and rear are the real key IMHO. the differences felt by a 1.) " bar and a 1.25" bar won't be felt in spirited driving , only when pushed to the limit. I play with my suspension a lot , it practically changes yearly. 3rd year in I ran a Corvette z51 (c4) rear bar (hollow) and an 84 Front bar (20mm) This worked great for the venue I was at , the course was all 1st gear and very tight. Once we started using airstrips and hitting 3rd gear this setup was useless.

These are my experiences , I haven't had a chance to get to the track with the Fieor this year , but I am looking forward to an Aug 18th event. I finally get to run against another Fiero. a 3.4Ltr 4spd car with a pretty good driver.

My problem is jumping from car to car. They all share similar traits , but at the same time are so different. I am nearly finished my degree and will be running the last few events of the season (5 or so). Unfortunatley canadian classification is not the nicest thing. Nothing like running in a class with z06's , 911's , SC'd Miatas and S2000's.

I hope this helps, there are a lot more knowledgeable people out there than I (by far)

I could throw a huge monkey wrench into all of this... Doug Chase runs 400Lbs front and 200Lbs rear springs...and no that isn't a typo. I would say the best person to listen too would be Doug chase or George Ryan , both have an exensive knowledge of how to make these frustrating little cars handle.

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

I We Todd Did , I Sofa king We Todd Did.

How in the world do you set up an AutoX course tight enough to keep a Fiero in 1st gear?

quote Originally posted by Will: How in the world do you set up an AutoX course tight enough to keep a Fiero in 1st gear?

Since malls were legalized to open on Sundays we lost our venue around 4-5 years ago. We got a small lot at a place called Norcom. I would sometimes hit 2nd gear , but only for a few seconds.

Our latest venue is an decommissioned air strip in picton Ontario. It is used by the RCMP for driver training. It literally has pavement as far as the eye can see. The big boys are hitting nearly 100mph.

I can't wait to run against another Fiero

JM

Simle question,what year Astro van ?

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84 coup 117000 miles
86 Gt Fastback conversion