Got a dumb question for you... (I've got a million of 'em...) I've been operating under the assumption that the LS1/LS6 has a different bell housing bolt pattern than the good ol' SBC. However, that seems like a really stupid thing for GM to do. Why would they go to the trouble to also change every transmission bell housing that will eventually mate to this new block? What possible advantage could there be to spending this monumental amount of money? (And I assure you that from a manufacturing and engineering perspective it IS a monumental amount of money... Usually a change of this magnitude would require a major payback or market gain!)
Is the LS1/LS6 bell housing pattern different than the traditional SBC? If so, how much different? Are any of the holes in the same location?
Last I heard the 97 corvette Ls1 has a slightly different bellhousing pattern due to the fact that it bolts to a torque tube instead of the transmission, but the difference was that one bolt hole was missing (there isn't enought material to put one there either). GM bolted the engine up to a turbo 400 and stuck it in a 55 test mule. The F-body versions might have the extra bolt hole.
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11:10 PM
Nov 3rd, 2001
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
The LS1 bellhousing bolt pattern is the same as the other SBC's. Yes there is one bolt hole missing but that bolt hole &/or the threaded hole in the block is also missing on a lot of other SBC engines and bellhousings. That bolt hole is usually only used on the castings for the truck, & other HD, applications.
Now many people know that I'm working on a V-8 conversion kit for the LS1 and it is nearing completion.
Let me tell you a few things about the LS1 block as compared to the "normal" SBC engines. As I said the bolt pattern is the same but EVERYTHING else is different. The crankshaft flange & bolt pattern are totally different than any other SBC to date. And because of other factors, none of the LS1 flywheels can be used on the Fiero application. The distance that the bellhousing bolt flange sticks out from the back of the engine is different. The distance that the crankflange sticks out of the back of the engine is also different than any other SBC. The oil filter location and type is different. The engine casting is a "Y" block (like the old 272, 292 & 312 Fords) thus reducing the available area to mount the starter to the other side of the engine. The engine threaded bolt holes on the engine block and on the ends of the cylinder heads is totally different than on the other SBC engines. The Waterpump is also totally different..... the Gooseneck is located in such a place that it almost looks like GM designed it so it wouldn't fit in a Fiero. The Waterpump is such a lousy design that you'd think that it was designed by Ford. The Exhaust port design, bolt pattern and configuration are such that you cannot use any stock LS1 exhaust manifolds on the Fiero application and no other GM manifold or header will bolt up to these heads. The engine block casting is about 1.5" shorter than the raw SBC block. But with all the crap (including the W/P) that GM has on the front of the engine, The total assembled engine length when it's ready to put into a Fiero is about 3" longer than a "normal" SBC.
There are a few other oddities about the LS1 that I've probally left out.
Because of all the above items, I ended up designing a completely new kit for this application. NONE I mean NONE of my other SBC V-8 kit parts will work with the LS1. Believe me that I tried to use all of the existing GM and V-8 Archie parts I could and NONE of them were able to be adapted to this application.
The engine/Transmission adapter plate is thicker and has a couple of very unique design features that were necessary because of other design features. The Flywheel is a totally unique design, there are 14 features of this Flywheel design that have a direct bearing on wether it will fit or not. Because of design limitations, you will have only one choice for the clutch, thus it will be included with the kit. The starter mounting block is even more complicated than the Adapter plate (& costs more to make). It is so precise in fitment that we will be pre-mounting these to the adapter plate for our customers. Also the axle fitment on this swap is unlike anything you've ever seen before.... I'm sure it will work fine but you would never believe all of the design and parts features that dictated this setup. Further more, I think we've done something very special in getting the Water pump situation solved.
I hope this gives you some insight as to just how hard it is to design something totally new for an engine like this.
I am quite pleased and proud of the way this is coming out but I'll tell you two things from the get go:
1) If I had known when I started just how many parts would have to be custom designed for this swap, I would have never done it.
2) This kit will not be cheap, there are no less than 12 custom designed (& expensive to machine) parts we've had to make for this swap. In addition there are 4 other "over the counter" parts that we have to custom modify for this swap to work.
Archie
------------------ Just how fast do you want to go?
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-03-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-03-2001).]
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02:04 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Can't wait to hear more about this setup and see pics Archie! When you are ready to do another story board with it, I'll definitely be bringing my notepad and thinking cap
I'm really glad to hear that you're near completion of an LS1 kit! You mentioned that you probably wouldn't have done it had you known how difficult it would be !?! I have a hard time believing that!!! If the market demands it, someone will provide it, and I would hate to see anyone besides the King of V8 Fieros offer an LS1 kit... I have a lot more confidence knowing it's coming from a guy that's been doing it for 15 years!
Sounds like an LT1, even with moving the engine some, is a much easier swap. About the only advantage to the LS1 would be the all aluminum engine. Now if I could just get a ZZ4 with an aluminum block....power, ease of install, light weight. That would be sweet.
Still, I can't wait to see Archie's first LS1 Fiero!
The LT1 is cool and will make lots of power, but an LS6 is something like 380hp right out of the box with no modifications! Plus you mentioned the weight factor, and it's cool to have the most high-tech engine you can get!
Just my opinion... The LT1 still isn't out of the running for me, but the LS6 is REALLY calling me!!!
Originally posted by Formula88: Sounds like an LT1, even with moving the engine some, is a much easier swap. About the only advantage to the LS1 would be the all aluminum engine. Now if I could just get a ZZ4 with an aluminum block....power, ease of install, light weight. That would be sweet.
Still, I can't wait to see Archie's first LS1 Fiero!
For the LS1 you have to move the engine over to the left, just like you do with the LT1.
The weight of the LS1 is only about 80 pounds less than the LT1 or the ZZ4.
I think the ZZ4 has more power potential for the $$$ it costs.
Archie
------------------ Just how fast do you want to go?
what is the new/used avg cost of the LS-1/LS-6 . and a custom built up with old style alloy block[brodex $2500] and heads [dart $1200]and basic hotrod guts [forged]of your choise.
sounds like that older style would be cheaper, more HP,and as lite without need to move motor over so better if no smog ck in your state.
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 11-04-2001).]
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03:54 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Archie I agree with you for the most part, except lets not forget the ls1 has two extra mounting holes in the pan. I also agree the starter mounting was one of the hardest parts. I even considered machining the block at the cross over for the remote oil cooler and (oil tenp cover on y body). But manage to eventually avoid that, but it required me to lengthen the starter drive gear and put a u shaped sleeve on my adapter plate to keep the gear from walking( although I am not sure that was necessary for the tilton style starter has two sets of bearings to stabilize the shaft.). I also agree with you on the water pump. I am using a remote electric one for that very reason I just couldn't bring myself to do the chopping that would be necessary to make the stock one work. Just some FYI GM is already on their third style water pump for the ls1 in the f-body (98 conventional gasket bolted on pulley, 99 conventional gasket and pressed on pulley, and 2000 on which uses a silicone bead type gasket similar to the valve covers) .for your header maybe you already know but, GM part # 12480130 is a good starting point. It is a flange that bolts up to the ls1/ls6 heads. You may also want to consider the pace modified ls6 MAF/IAT sensor it simplifies things a little here are a couple pics
[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 11-04-2001).]
[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 11-04-2001).]
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08:29 PM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Wow... makes a Northstar swap look like child's play. ($50 in air tools and you can do all the mods nessicary to get the motor to bolt up to the tranny. The bolt circle is the same amazingly enough.)
I dunno guys, how many of you who 'want an LS1 swap' will actually cough up the bucks to do it? I won't even guess here, but it's not going to be cheap.
Archie, this should seperate the wanabees from those really willing to make it happen.
PS: LS6 in the 2002 C5 is good for a genuine ***405bhp***. (with that car's exhaust too.) Nothing to sneeze at, and a nice weight savings. Worth the $? that's your call.)
It still amazes me how clever and innovative Fiero people are. Not only do we shoehorn entire engines into cars and make the swap reliable, but we also fix many GM design flaws along the way.
Personally, I can't wait to see an LS1 Fiero fire up and shake the walls for the first time (do we ALL run our engines first open-header?!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top Metalic Red 88 Formula, Silver 87 Coupe, Metalic Red "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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10:26 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by artherd: do we ALL run our engines first open-header?!
Yes. Yes we do.
But with the 80lb weight savings of the LS1, you're almost right there at the weight of the factory V6 - an important consideration. But I think I have to agree with Archie, the ZZ4 probably gives more bang for the buck. Still, it's an intriguing swap. Looking forward to seeing one.
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10:43 PM
Nov 5th, 2001
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5542 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Well you didnt read your service manual if you have to ask that. It clearly states. "Run with open headers to shake the walls and wake neighbors. Note: For better performance, start your engine between the hours of 2AM and 6AM to really get everyones attention."
Archie, I'm am definitely interested in the kit for an LS1 or LS6 swap. Let me know when you have one available and the cost. I'm currently looking for an LS1 or LS6 block bare for an engine build.
Archie mentioned that the LS1 only weighs about 80lbs less than the LT1 or ZZ4. Yet did you know that the weight difference in the block castings is significantly more than that?
Besides the rest of the engine, even the bottom end of the LS1 is radically different from its predecessors. It uses not two, not four, but six-bolt main bearing caps and a huge hollow crankshaft through which oil flows. That crankshaft is significantly heavier than a Gen1 or Gen2 SBC. The design of the LS1 block has features to reduce noise/vibration/harshness, resulting in a much quieter, smoother engine than Gen1/2. And the fact that it is a shorter block means that it concentrates more of its mass in the center of the car, especially since the engine is moved further over to the left in Archie's configuration. It's also heavier on the bottom, due to being a deep-skirt design, hence lowering the center of gravity. This balances the Fiero's weight distribution even better than it was originally, for even more neutral handling. If all you care about is major power, there are clearly less expensive and less complicated routes to that goal. I did not want to upset the chassis balance and suspension calibration of the '88 GT. I also prefer the torque curve of the LS1 to previous-generation engines. Take a look at this graph.
The red line represents the LT4. The LT1's curve is even more biased towards the lower-end of the range than that. I prefer the smoother power delivery and higher torque peak in the upper-RPM range of the LS1/LS6.
I hope this gives a little more insight into what is so great about the LS1. For more information about it, check these links:
I'm wondering why no one has continued this discussion? I think the LS1 is great!!! I know archie is experienced in working with the fieros that is why I'll be happy when he makes the kit at whatever the cost. There is often work arounds where you don’t have to edit the car so much. The mods that archie are making, is that the only way? I'm wondering after these last couple of months have you found anything new? After the open house was there much discussion about the LS1 kit? Any new ideas? This is fun hehe
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08:12 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by crazyd: Archie mentioned that the LS1 only weighs about 80lbs less than the LT1 or ZZ4. Yet did you know that the weight difference in the block castings is significantly more than that?
Besides the rest of the engine, even the bottom end of the LS1 is radically different from its predecessors. It uses not two, not four, but six-bolt main bearing caps and a huge hollow crankshaft through which oil flows. That crankshaft is significantly heavier than a Gen1 or Gen2 SBC. The design of the LS1 block has features to reduce noise/vibration/harshness, resulting in a much quieter, smoother engine than Gen1/2. And the fact that it is a shorter block means that it concentrates more of its mass in the center of the car, especially since the engine is moved further over to the left in Archie's configuration. It's also heavier on the bottom, due to being a deep-skirt design, hence lowering the center of gravity. This balances the Fiero's weight distribution even better than it was originally, for even more neutral handling. If all you care about is major power, there are clearly less expensive and less complicated routes to that goal. I did not want to upset the chassis balance and suspension calibration of the '88 GT. I also prefer the torque curve of the LS1 to previous-generation engines. Take a look at this graph.
The red line represents the LT4. The LT1's curve is even more biased towards the lower-end of the range than that. I prefer the smoother power delivery and higher torque peak in the upper-RPM range of the LS1/LS6.
I hope this gives a little more insight into what is so great about the LS1. For more information about it, check these links:
The LS1's main bearing journals are large in diameter for strength. They're drilled for weight savings and bay-to-bay breathing, not oil passage. As for better balance and lower CG; I don't think those effects are worth worrying about. This isn't a Formula 1 car we're talking about here.
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09:20 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
What do you want to discuss? I am close now. I am crossing my fingers I will fire it up this weekend or next. ( have lasik surgery Friday so I don't know if I will feel much like working on it.)
Here is a pic from a couple of weeks ago....i need a better digital camera so it is more clear. She fits nice won't even have to cut the deck lid. I have half a roll shot on my 35mm when I Finnish the roll I will post some more pictures
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10:35 PM
Aug 23rd, 2002
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by dennis_6: Bump... Anyone else wondering when Archies LS1/LS6 swap is going to be available?
From what I understand CrazyD was supposed to be in line for the first LS1 swap from Archie. He decided to go a different route and Archie said he was planning to put the LS1 in a different car. In other words, if you have the money I am sure Archie has something to sell you.
