What was his retail price for his clutch system?

quote Originally posted by Mr. Farknocker: What was his retail price for his clutch system?

Oh yeah, A steal at $300 complete with throw out bearing and alignment tool. That's if the claims are true . We shall see...Mwahhhahahahahahaaa

WOW! I just realized that the qoute that hillj used was the one I sent him a month ago. See, I wrote to star clutch about 6 months ago and passed the info on to hillj. I was going to take the clutch out over the winter but never got to it. I passed this info on to hillj and now we have two forum members who are going to give us feedback on this new option. I am very excited and really hope these guys are all fire and not a bunch of smoke and mirrors!

Chester, Hillj, when are you guys going to complete your swaps. I can help you out with any info I have on completing my Archie swap. You guys will love all that extra torque from a V8!

Jim
87 GT T-TOP V8
87 GT

quote Originally posted by Jimmy: I am very excited and really hope these guys are all fire and not a bunch of smoke and mirrors! Jim 87 GT T-TOP V8 87 GT

The bad news is that we're all going to have to wait a long time for useful feedback. It's a question of holding power combined with long term durability, as most HP Clutches will hold up for a short while. I hope these guys factor in some road course racing and 1/4 mile in their evaluations. Unless someone is going to use their V8 as a year round daily driver (very unlikely), it will take a couple seasons to really get some reportable miles of use.

quote Originally posted by Jimmy: I am very excited and really hope these guys are all fire and not a bunch of smoke and mirrors! Chester, Hillj, when are you guys going to complete your swaps. I can help you out with any info I have on completing my Archie swap. You guys will love all that extra torque from a V8! Jim 87 GT T-TOP V8 87 GT

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the info. My motor is being built next week. I'm going with a 383 stroker with 2.05 Dart racing heads and an Edelbrock Pro Flow Fuel Injection system . I had to have Archie ship the harmonic balancer and flywheel out to the speed shop to get it balanced. I'm picking up the kit and radiator from Archie at Carlisle and should have the motor assembled on the cradle and ready to go the weekend after that.

Rob D

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

quote Originally posted by artherd: Intresting, I usually try to talk out my ass as little as possible, but I didn't know that your custom CF clutch had *ever* changed/been upgraded! How many revs has it gone through, and do you feel they've signifigantly changed through the years in terms of unlimate load-carrying? What's the highest hp/torque V8 you've had expierence with in a getrag (or isuzu I suppose) 5-speed car? I'd like to get my figures from The Man Best! Ben.

Ben, IMHO, you are in the top ten for asking the best questions.

I hope you don't mind a long answer. And I hope you don't mind hearing about how CForce got started.

A lot of this story was related to me in person by Bill Hays.

When I was a kid I used to read every car magazine on the newstand. I remember in the 60's reading car magazines about Drag Racing and a guy named Bill Hayes was among the top pro drivers in those days. I've always liked stick shift cars and Bill was one of the top drivers who stuck with the stick even when many others were going with the automatics. Not many hi preformance clutches were available in those days and Bill Hays got to the point where he was building his own clutches. Other racers started buying clutches from him and before long a company called "Hays Clutch" was formed in Ohio. Bill built that business by building the best clutches for his customers for many years. Sometime around 1980 Bill, thinking he was ready to retire, sold the "Hays Clutch" business including the right to use the Hays name. That business continues to be successful even today.

After a few years of retirement, Bill was ready to get back to work. In California, he started a business called Midway Industries and started developement of a clutch design that he had come up with during retirement. This was the Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch. Back in 1987, after I had tried all of the different clutches available on my V-8 Fieros, I made a trip out to CA to try to talk Bill into doing a clutch for the Fiero. I remember the CForce advertizeements that were in the Mags then were the ones with a 5.0 Mustang smoking the tires & I wanted that.

At that time CForce was not making anything for the Fiero except stock replacement clutches. When I made that trip to CA, I found myself talking face to face with Bill Hayes himself. I couldn't believe it, it was like talking to a God from my childhood. Now I gotta say, this guy knew what he was talking about. My background is Aircraft Quality Assurance specializing in MDI data & I used to be able to talk shop to people and reach a point where I'd totally loose them. They would break eye contact and just start nodding. Bill Hayes was like this, in just 3 minutes of discussing clutch dynamics, off the top of his head, he would totally lose me. I made another trip to further our discussions a few months later and, For a considerable fee Bill Hays and CForce were off designing a clutch that I could use with a V-8 Fiero.

The original V-8 clutches he did for me had their 5.0 mustang Disc (cut down), A Fiero like Cover with springs from their BBC clutch and a Diaphram from a clutch they were doing for another car.

Bill was a car guy, over the next several years he developed better & better friction materials and kept putting them into my clutches. I don't know how many revisions but I guess he updated friction materials 6 or 7 times.

Bill was great, he was a hot rodder and always had time to develope his relations with customers never forgetting where he came from.

Bill retired about 8 years ago and can be found on the Snake River near Eugene OR fly fishing. His step son, Pat Wilson, owns & runs the business. To Pat and the new generation at CForce building clutches is just a business. With few exceptions, they couldn't care what they are selling. They do come up with revisions every once in a while but it's just a business to them, not a passion like it was with Bill.

You know, some people celebrate when the old guard moves on. But that talent & interest that makes a company famous is gone forever when someone takes over that didn't learn the trade the hard way. Here, as with many other 2nd. generation big business owners, when all is said & done, are just in the business for the money it generates.

I hope this helps

Archie

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Driveability: The only thing you do different with the QM setup is that you can't drive it like an ole lady. Excessive slipping or riding the pedal while your driving will result in glazed disks, once they are glazed they must be replaced. The same for trying to hold the car on a hill with slipping the clutch, it's a no no with the race disks (use hand brake). You drive it like a manual trans car should be driven, factoring out bad driver operation. What I mean is, engage and disengage the clutch fully in smooth and a little quicker steps than you would use with a factory clutch. It's very easy to learn, feels good, and it's the way clutches should be used for optimum performance (low heat). Letting friends drive your car requires that you inform them not to slip the clutch, very little gas on takeoff, no riding the pedal during driving.

Why on earth would anyone be pushing on the clutch pedal while they're driving, or slipping the clutch to stay on a hill instead of using the brake? Am I missing something here? I didn't think even STUPID people would do this. The dumbest thing I've seen people do is while sitting at a stoplight, engaging and disengaging the clutch thinking the light is about to turn green.

quote Life of QM clutch disks: It's important to understand that these are very high grip race parts. The lining is very thin so that it doesn't hold heat, which destroys the performance. QM will only make a general statement that the disks should last 10,000 miles. I drive my car very hard (harder than anyone I know anyway) and have 15,000 on the set that's in there now with no slip in any gear (under full throttle)at this time. A lot depends on a person's driving style, torque of engine, etc., everybodies car and skills are different.

Tom, everything sounds great except the longevity. Considering that you have to drop the cradle and remove either the engine or the transmission (you choose) to do ANYTHING to the clutch, 10-20k mile clutch life isn't enough, especially at $160 parts cost just to replace the wear items! 30-40k would be tolerable, 40-50k would be preferable! I would rather pay more upfront for a clutch that will last longer.

Just for price comparison, it's $140 for a complete stock clutch assembly (disc, plate, bearing & alignment tool) at your local parts store.

Dave

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 05-11-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Ben, IMHO, you are in the top ten for asking the best questions. I hope you don't mind a long answer. And I hope you don't mind hearing about how CForce got started.

Thanks for the write-up Archie! It’s a shame that people can't pass the development passion they posses to others. I remember Hays Clutches from when I was into mopars. They always made the good stuff. So maybe it is due time to find another company that has the fire and commitment to make us an adequate clutch. Adequate and affordable.
I guess well soon find out. Thanks for all your input!

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 05-11-2002).]

Dave,

You have to remember most OEM or replacement clutch's are designed for the below average driver. They have to consider the real world were some people drive with their foot resting on the clutch pedal (this can take a little pressure off the disk). As far as the hills, I've seen a number of people that for a short time will hold the car in place by slipping the clutch. That's why when the pick a lining compound they pick one with good grip, tolerates heat build up, and thick lining.

QuarterMaster only makes equipment for professionals where very high grip is required. Compromising the materials for the average driver would impact the performance level of the part.

In regards to mileage on my QM twin disk setup you must factor in that I'm in the throttle all the time. At 15k miles there is still life in the disks, I don't know how much more, but it still holds solid in all gears. My car has also been subjected to extreme stop and go situations on cruise nights and Woodward Crusie. If someone where to take a little time they could package the 3 disk setup which would improve the mileage by at least 30% more. It's very feasible to do this with an Archie Conversion as he uses a thicker trans adapter plate and flywheel than mine (machine the flywheel a little thinner to allow 3 disk setup).

I don't have to drop my cradle to pull the trans because it's a special "break away" design cradle created by Keith Huff in CA. The left side of the cradle can be seperated from the main portion and you just have to remove the left rear bolt and loosen the left front to remove trans (main cradle with engine supported by jackstand).

Keep in mind that the Fiero was never design intended for a 400HP&Torque engine. The trans housing rules out large diameter HD clutches, so all that's left are the very high tech expensive smaller ones, and there isn't much demand to bring the price down.

I've gotten so many pm's from people who have slipping problems in the upper gears, that I won't change my setup until someone posts they have found something very good, and have run it through the mill!!!

Tom

------------------

http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

I'm really interested in the SPEC racing clutch, but I'm a little shy about trying it. The engine I have is over 300hp and I'm almost wishing it had less power now. QM is just out of my budget, but I'm sure it's an effective setup. I might still go with the clutchnet.com 6-puck, but they never returned my email about the pressure plate so I'm a bit leary.

Great story Archie! We all love it when you give us the whole background, makes the Fiero world feel so much more like a community

PS: we have a CF in the 67 Mustang with a 351W High Compression. Neat design, Copper/steel friction material on one side, and organic (with copper WIRE woven in...) on the pressure plate side... It holds 375+hp *very* solidly! (20k on it so far, never sliped in it's life.)

As far as 'conventional' clutches go, I'd buy nothing but Centreforce. They're the cutting edge for a very reasonable price.

PS: I am working on fitting the 3-plate QM clutch into my N*/Getrag car (same geometry as the 2.8s) it will take some more modification (eg, going to a hydraulic TO bearing, which requires a new clutch MASTER cylinder, and elminates the fiero slave/arm/bearing alltogether.)

If I get 30-40kmiles out of it (which I just might, acording to the other replies) that'll be 3-4years. More time than I even want the cradle in the car. (need to do other things, change plugs, add turbos, etc

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Darn it Chester, you said EXACTLY what I was going to say.

I go you one better...... IMHO, this is among the top ten Fiero technical threads I've read ANYWHERE. I have actually re-read this thread completely 3 times & for the last several days it has been the 1st thread I've looked at the 6 times a day that I boot up PFF.

As I said before, I'm always trying new things on my personal cars. You guys have me all fired up to try a few new things now. As you all know I drive V-8 Fiero 12 months a year & I'm satisfied with the CForce. For grins and giggles, I'd like to mess around a little by testing both the QM and the clutch Chester is getting. I've got 2 cars that I can put these into right away and both of them have pretty nice engines. If both Chester and the Kid can turn me onto the proper part numbers, I'll get them, install them, and be testing them ASAP.

Thanks

Archie

quote Originally posted by chester: I just wanted to say that this has been one of the most informative clutch threads that I have come across in quite some time and that I really appreciate everyone’s input! Keep the details coming!!! Rob D.

quote Originally posted by chester: This is because of the application. We're NOT talking stock clutches here by a long shot. If you tried a STOCK clutch with the torque I'm going to push it might last you 1000 miles. Hell, I had a BRAND NEW LUX CLUTCH installed behind my modified V6 and after a few spirited romps it would start to slip. Can you imagine putting 2-3 times the torque on it? When you do a V8 conversion you are stepping into a new realm of performance for our little cars. Longevity of a clutch is severely shortened for performance. Yes, I might have to change the clutch every 30,000 miles or so, but then for me that would be in about 3-4 years. Not too bad for something that will positively hold the power that I planted in the car to start with.

Hey Rob, all I said was for price comparison. I'm fully aware it wouldn't hold the torque of even a mild V8, I wasn't at all suggesting it would. I'm not a guy you need to be lecturing about V8 swaps either.

I disagree with your assertion that clutch longevity must be sacrificed for this much power. Zumalt cars have very limited space in the bellhousing in which to put a clutch and flywheel, and hence the clutch choices are limited there. Archie kits do not have the same limitations, so we have more choices available to us. There are several examples of cars with just as much power and clutches that can last 100K miles with it, such as the Corvette Z06, Cobra R and Viper. Our goal here is to find a clutch that offers the optimal combination of all the design criteria involved. Let's not give up on one of those criteria before the search has even begun!

quote The point of the matter is that the clutch is sensitive to glazing if you slip it. Sorry but there is a fair amount of "slipping the clutch" that "normal" drivers do on a stock unit. A lot of people don't know how to properly drive a standard much less a racing clutch so this DOES become a factor and I appreciate California kid making mention of it. Please let’s keep this thread technical in nature.

There is more to this clutch issue than cost, clamp force and longevity. There is also the question of streetability, if we're planning on putting license plates on our V8 cars. I think that is every bit as important as the other factors, even if you may consider it non-technical.

Dave

------------------

- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 05-12-2002).]

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Hey Rob, all I said was for price comparison. I'm fully aware it wouldn't hold the torque of even a mild V8, I wasn't at all suggesting it would. I'm not a guy you need to be lecturing about V8 swaps either.

Dude, sorry but IMHO your comparing apples and oranges. You can't price compare stock clutches to performance ones. And where was I lecturing you about V8 swaps ?

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

Hey Dave, while I would agree with pretty much everything you've said, especially the driveability issues. I'm likely going to be pushing the limits of drivability with the silver car (3-plate, and no flywheel, just a ring gear.) time will only really tell just how streetable it really is. I expect it to be, ah, different. Probally as easy to stall as a 5-speed honda, with the clamping and top-end engine power of a supercar (I hope . Different, but still very driveable.

Anyway, back to your post;
I'd have to ammend it to something like "There are many examples of stock SBC V8 Fieros running on Archie's CF clutch." But we're talking engines over the rareified 400/400 mark.

I know only of four Fieros off the top of my head making that much power with SBC V8s. One is an auto... (sounds like your car may be number 5

Once you start talking about *hot roding* your V8 Fiero, things, well, they start to get intresting. Not so cut and dried. This thread is all about our expierences and designs and what we've done to handle the power. Be it stuff still in progress (ie, me) to just tossing in an Archie CF (which we've already discovered there are many degrees of, with today's likely being the best, wheras older ones may not hold quite as much.) to custom engineering a race car clutch with organic discs and driving it in cruises.

It's been a great thread so far, let's keep it up guys, I'm definately learning a lot here!!

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I disagree with your assertion that clutch longevity must be sacrificed for this much power. Zumalt cars have very limited space in the bellhousing in which to put a clutch and flywheel, and hence the clutch choices are limited there. Archie kits do not have the same limitations, so we have more choices available to us. There are numerous examples of cars with just as much power and clutches that can last 100K miles with it. Our goal here is to find a clutch that offers the optimal combination of all the design criteria involved. Let's not give up on one of those criteria before the search has even begun!

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Archie: Darn it Chester, you said EXACTLY what I was going to say. I go you one better...... IMHO, this is among the top ten Fiero technical threads I've read ANYWHERE. I have actually re-read this thread completely 3 times & for the last several days it has been the 1st thread I've looked at the 6 times a day that I boot up PFF. As I said before, I'm always trying new things on my personal cars. You guys have me all fired up to try a few new things now. As you all know I drive V-8 Fiero 12 months a year & I'm satisfied with the CForce. For grins and giggles, I'd like to mess around a little by testing both the QM and the clutch Chester is getting. I've got 2 cars that I can put these into right away and both of them have pretty nice engines. If both Chester and the Kid can turn me onto the proper part numbers, I'll get them, install them, and be testing them ASAP. Thanks Archie

Archie, you have pm, I sent some QuarterMaster Information to you. Even if you have some customers that don't want to spend the extra money for this setup, I can bet in will be in your personal cars!!!

Tom

------------------

http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

quote Originally posted by artherd: I'm likely going to be pushing the limits of drivability with the silver car (3-plate, and no flywheel, just a ring gear.) time will only really tell just how streetable it really is. I expect it to be, ah, different. Probally as easy to stall as a 5-speed honda, with the clamping and top-end engine power of a supercar (I hope . Different, but still very driveable.

Ben,

I assume you mean street drivability. I know of only one other production car in existence that has no flywheel, and it is only one very tiny step from being a non-streetable racecar. It also has a 627bhp BMW V12 to keep it from stalling. I am having difficulty just visualizing your setup, I assume it's more like a flexplate, but we can talk about it offline.

quote Anyway, back to your post; I'd have to ammend it to something like "There are many examples of stock SBC V8 Fieros running on Archie's CF clutch." But we're talking engines over the rareified 400/400 mark.

I was actually not talking about Fieros, rather I was thinking of the Big Three: Vette (Z06), Viper, and Mustang Cobra R. The R uses a Mcleod, the Z06 uses a GM clutch, and I have no idea what the Viper uses. I've edited my previous post to reflect this.

quote I know only of four Fieros off the top of my head making that much power with SBC V8s. One is an auto... (sounds like your car may be number 5 )

No comment. What are the other four?

Dave

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 05-12-2002).]

quote Originally posted by crazyd: There are several examples of cars with just as much power and clutches that can last 100K miles with it, such as the Corvette Z06, Cobra R and Viper. Our goal here is to find a clutch that offers the optimal combination of all the design criteria involved. Let's not give up on one of those criteria before the search has even begun!

What you're overlooking is that the Corvette uses something on the order of an 11 1/2" clutch, whereas the Fiero is limited to 9 11/16", with all the single disk units actually being 9 1/8".

I think that streetability has been a big part of this discussion. It is after all in the title of the thread.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: [QUOTE]Zumalt cars have very limited space in the bellhousing in which to put a clutch and flywheel, and hence the clutch choices are limited there. Archie kits do not have the same limitations, so we have more choices available to us. There are numerous examples of cars with just as much power and clutches that can last 100K miles with it. Our goal here is to find a clutch that offers the optimal combination of all the design criteria involved. Let's not give up on one of those criteria before the search has even begun! There is more to this clutch issue than cost, clamp force and longevity. There is also the question of streetability, if we're planning on putting license plates on our V8 cars. I think that is every bit as important as the other factors, even if you may consider it non-technical. Dave

Dave, The is no difference in the packaging room between Zumalt Kit and Archie Kit. Both have the same limitation of maximum clutch diameter which if memory serves me correctly is 9 11/16" (whatever the number they are both identical). The trans bell housing is the limiting factor. Archie's flywheel has the advantage for packaging a spring loaded clutch hub (due to deeper pocket in flywheel), but I don't think your going to get a small spring loaded hub to hold up to 400 lbs torque on a repeated basis for very long.

I know where you are coming from with your comments, but you have to understand there just isn't a big market for Fiero clutch and pressure plate that will hold this kind of power, so it's new terrain few companies have ventured into. I certainly don't know of any production car that is using a single disk under 10" diameter that can hold the power numbers we are talking about and get long term durability. Even if there are a few I'm not aware of they don't make parts for our cars.

I've done a lot of searching on my own, I'm glad some other people are still looking as well. I've even considered taking a set of QM disks stripping the worn organic off and having them ceramic coated (very similar to real HD Truck and Industrial off road applications, that stuff is really durable). I just haven't found the pressing need to go there yet, and haven't found someone to do it yet.

As I've said before, the QM setup while being a race only application, is streetable if you know how to use a clutch. If you let a girlfriend or boyfriend who hasn't driven a stick very often take it for a spin, there is the chance they will cook it. As a matter of fact, the last thing I would do is turn my keys over to Valet Parking!!! Bottom line is that people who don't know how to use a clutch properly will shorten the life or destroy it's holding power. I think most of the manual trans owners on this Forum know how to use a clutch properly, just making a little caution statement as most HP Disks are sensitive to glazing if used improperly.

Hi dave, feel free to PM me on the setup, but here's a little info for anyone else wondering; I am actually using a production N* flexplate as a starter ring gear. Then QM is making me a custom billet backing 'button' that looks kind of like a solid pressure plate, in mirror image. The clutch discs are sanwiched between this and the pressure plate on the other side.

Yes, the McLaren F1 is the only other car I know of to actually street this combination. I'll have ~410bhp of N* to hold it, not as much as that wonderful V12

Oh, I've no disagreement that other cars with similar HP/Tq figures to what we're talking are quite reliable with normal-type high performance clutches, they just have *significantly* larger disc diameters. (an inch, or even half an inch, here makes a huge difference.)

Here is a rough equation for sheer force on a variable radius, it's late, and I may be ommiting something here; but I belive it goes up with the *square* of radius increase. (assuming say a 1" liniar disc friction surface width)

So, the same clutch in 8" (4" radius) designed to hold 400lb-ft could hold 625lb-ft in a 10"(5" radius) variant. (all else being equal, which it rarely is, but hey) Someone check this? I feel I'm definately ommiting something here tonite...

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Ben, I assume you mean street drivability. I know of only one other production car in existence that has no flywheel, and it is only one very tiny step from being a non-streetable racecar.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 05-12-2002).]

Archie,

You have PM

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Originally posted by crazyd: Zumalt cars have very limited space in the bellhousing in which to put a clutch and flywheel, and hence the clutch choices are limited there. Archie kits do not have the same limitations, so we have more choices available to us. Dave, The is no difference in the packaging room between Zumalt Kit and Archie Kit. Both have the same limitation of maximum clutch diameter which if memory serves me correctly is 9 11/16" (whatever the number they are both identical). The trans bell housing is the limiting factor. Archie's flywheel has the advantage for packaging a spring loaded clutch hub (due to deeper pocket in flywheel), but I don't think your going to get a small spring loaded hub to hold up to 400 lbs torque on a repeated basis for very long.

I stand behind my statement, Tom. Based on what I have seen at Archie's shop, had explained to me by Archie himself, and the information in the Zumwalt Kit Design Elements thread, the thickness of the adapter plates between the two kits is different, and Archie's thicker adapter plate on his manual transmission kit allows more depth in the bellhousing. Yes, the height does remain the same. If I understood correctly, the adapter plate of the Zumalt kit was for an automatic transmission and was never changed to accomodate a full-depth flywheel and clutch. I think this is important to this thread because this difference between the two kits opens up more possibilities for clutches on an Archie kit versus a Zumalt. Archie, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dave

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 05-12-2002).]

Dave, I don't think you're comprehending what I explained and I'll leave it at that.

I'll leave this one to Archie.

I have a clutchnet clutch,they make very good clutches but the last I checked they didnt have many pressure plate choices.
The last I checked they only offerd a basically stock plate and a dual diaphram plate. I have one of there stock pressure plates in my car with one of there 8 puck bronze sintered clutches and the pressure plate dosnt have enough clamping pressure My friend has the dual diaphram plate which hooks up but really isnt streetable.
Im currently looking for someone to make me a pressure plate.
ps:my engine has 300 ft/lb and my friends is around 400ft/lbs

quote Originally posted by GT Bastard: I might still go with the clutchnet.com 6-puck, but they never returned my email about the pressure plate so I'm a bit leary.

------------------
Scott
86GT 3.4 turbo

For the people who pm'd me, here are actual size pictures of the QM disk if you want to compare to your flywheel.

Edit: Can't figure out why the second photo of disk is smaller, used same 7.25" picture size in Photoshop. Gives you the idea anyway.

Floater plate photo isn't exact size but close so you can see what the part looks like the sits between the clutch disks. The teeth engage/slide within the Titanium Housing Ring (it's a highly machined tube, that has "breather" holes on not really shown in illustration). Both Housing Ring and Pressure Plate are extremely strong and lightweight.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-13-2002).]

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I stand behind my statement, Tom. Based on what I have seen at Archie's shop, had explained to me by Archie himself, and the information in the Zumwalt Kit Design Elements thread, the thickness of the adapter plates between the two kits is different, and Archie's thicker adapter plate on his manual transmission kit allows more depth in the bellhousing. Yes, the height does remain the same. If I understood correctly, the adapter plate of the Zumalt kit was for an automatic transmission and was never changed to accomodate a full-depth flywheel and clutch. I think this is important to this thread because this difference between the two kits opens up more possibilities for clutches on an Archie kit versus a Zumalt. Archie, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, a greater variety of sprung hub clutches can be used with Archie's kit.

However, the question you're not asking is:
Is that truly important?

Does anyone know for sure the relative impacts of sprung hubs vs. marcelled disk(s) on the streetability of a clutch?

I would think that marcelled disks would have a much greater impact on streetability... and packaging doesn't really matter when using a marcelled disk.

I find this thread on clutch strength amusing.
I will concede that the technology that exists today can be used to make some very strong clutches capable of holding 400 HP or more in a 9 11/16 diameter size.
However, this discussion is meaningless as your GETRAG was designed to handle only 250FT lbs of torque and about 225 horsepower. Yes you can put in more power if you seldom use WOT and the tranny will last a while. However, try a few full throttle 1/4 passes with a 400 HP feeding into the GETRAG and see what happens.
Pat Ciarcia of C&C Automotive in MT. Pocono PA.(one of Archies customers BTW) tried drag racing a Fiero with a race prepped SBC and initially ran a GETRAG The GETRAG lasted an average of three runs. He finally had to go to a modified automatic. Before you decide to argue or flame away; don't take my word for it, call Pat and ask him.
I'm actually a big fan of the SBC but believe that if you use a high horsepower engine match it to a suitable drivetrain and suspension. Fact is; The GETRAG is not a suitable tranny for a high power SBC.
If you run a V8 consider using a modified TH-125H by JPT or a GM 4E60 tranny and run Mark Williams or Strange axels. That combination will give you drivetrain strength which is compatible with your engine. The light duty and slow shifting GETRAG should be left to do the job that it was intended to do. That is to handle V6 power.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

Dennis, first off, please understand that this message is NOT a flame, and that it is strongly worded, only to help establish some FACTS here in regard to transmissions.

While I do not at all dispute the fact that the Getrag WAS NOT designed with a V8 in mind, is rated at a nominal ~200lb-ft from teh factory, etc...

I am going to have to call BS on your "friend" who "had a getrag fail" on his car.
SHOW ME PICTURES (or post or PM his phone number to me, and I will call him, and scan pictures) OF THE BLOWN TRANSMISSION.

OR ELSE I REFUSE TO BELIVE YOUR OR ANYONE ELSE'S STATEMENTS WRT GETRAG FAILURES.

Peroid.

Plain and simple. Others have come forward with "my uncle's getrag brokerdd" and NOT ONE has yet produced ANY evidence of it.

Untill that day comes, UNTILL SOME ONE SHOWS ME PICTURES OF A GOOD CONDITION GETRAG THAT FAILED DUE TO OVER TORQUE (Tina's 4-speed does not count, for instance, as it failed because the *pressure plate exploded*, relivant in a clutch thread, no?

I appologise for the strong words here, but I personally know several people running 12-sec quarter miles with their V8 Getrag Fieros with ZERO trans failures. They all have more than 3 runs under their belts too. One has a solid engine, solid clutch, and 255 section roadrace tyres too... I will let him respond to you though

Best!
Ben.

PS: Didn't pat have a 600hp small block, with an ADDITIONAL 200shot?

PPS: read above everyone, the *tranny* has to have failed, not the pressureplate/clutch, which would then cause a subsequent tranny damage/explosion.)

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I find this thread on clutch strength amusing. I will concede that the technology that exists today can be used to make some very strong clutches capable of holding 400 HP or more in a 9 11/16 diameter size. However, this discussion is meaningless as your GETRAG was designed to handle only 250FT lbs of torque and about 225 horsepower. Yes you can put in more power if you seldom use WOT and the tranny will last a while. However, try a few full throttle 1/4 passes with a 400 HP feeding into the GETRAG and see what happens. Pat Ciarcia of C&C Automotive in MT. Pocono PA.(one of Archies customers BTW) tried drag racing a Fiero with a race prepped SBC and initially ran a GETRAG The GETRAG lasted an average of three runs. He finally had to go to a modified automatic. Before you decide to argue or flame away; don't take my word for it, call Pat and ask him. I'm actually a big fan of the SBC but believe that if you use a high horsepower engine match it to a suitable drivetrain and suspension. Fact is; The GETRAG is not a suitable tranny for a high power SBC. If you run a V8 consider using a modified TH-125H by JPT or a GM 4E60 tranny and run Mark Williams or Strange axels. That combination will give you drivetrain strength which is compatible with your engine. The light duty and slow shifting GETRAG should be left to do the job that it was intended to do. That is to handle V6 power.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 05-12-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I'm actually a big fan of the SBC but believe that if you use a high horsepower engine match it to a suitable drivetrain and suspension. Fact is; The GETRAG is not a suitable tranny for a high power SBC. If you run a V8 consider using a modified TH-125H by JPT or a GM 4E60 tranny and run Mark Williams or Strange axels. That combination will give you drivetrain strength which is compatible with your engine.

I find Dennis amusing. Hey Dennis, did it occur to you that there may be some of us who use our V8 cars for something other than drag racing? Did it occur to you that some of us may not have any interest in letting the transmission do the driving for us? Did it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, SOME OF US DON'T WANT AN AUTOMATIC?!?! I derive great satisfaction from rowing my own gears and I'm not giving it up because YOU don't think the Getrag can take it at the 400fp level. It's ludicrous for you to suggest, in a clutch thread, that we throw away all we're trying to accomplish because DENNIS SAYS we should have an automatic instead.

Bill's Isuzuperformace will overbuild the Isuzu trans for you if you bring the cash. I may do this. But this isn't about transmissions, and this isn't about Dennis.

Back on topic.

I talked to a guy in my club today who has run a SPEC clutch in his '96 Firebird Formula. He said that at the time he had the SPEC in his car it had about 375hp at the wheels, on the motor. He ran an 11.2 with it on nitrous, and the clutch held as long as he didn't try spraying it out of the hole, because that's the one time that it would slip.

He also said he has now gone to a Mcleod dual-disc, but he hasn't had an opportunity to try it out this season yet. Apparently the Mcleod and SPEC are the hot setups for the low-11 sec F-body crowd.

So, clearly, SPEC can make an 11" clutch that'll take 500fp. The question is, can they make a 9" that will take 400? Rob, I'm anxious to hear how it goes on your car.

Dave

Well, I agree the Getrag will not fail easily.. However, they do. Ed Parks has spoken about a 5spd getrag completely blown apart by a 4.9 Cadillac v8. this car was used for racing purposes.. I have no evidence just what he spoke of. I have no doubt he was telling the truth.

quote Originally posted by artherd: Dennis, first off, please understand that this message is NOT a flame, and that it is strongly worded, only to help establish some FACTS here in regard to transmissions. While I do not at all dispute the fact that the Getrag WAS NOT designed with a V8 in mind, is rated at a nominal ~200lb-ft from teh factory, etc... [b] I am going to have to call BS on your "friend" who "had a getrag fail" on his car. SHOW ME PICTURES (or post or PM his phone number to me, and I will call him, and scan pictures) OF THE BLOWN TRANSMISSION. OR ELSE I REFUSE TO BELIVE YOUR OR ANYONE ELSE'S STATEMENTS WRT GETRAG FAILURES. Peroid. Plain and simple. Others have come forward with "my uncle's getrag brokerdd" and NOT ONE has yet produced ANY evidence of it. Untill that day comes, UNTILL SOME ONE SHOWS ME PICTURES OF A GOOD CONDITION GETRAG THAT FAILED DUE TO OVER TORQUE (Tina's 4-speed does not count, for instance, as it failed because the *pressure plate exploded*, relivant in a clutch thread, no? I appologise for the strong words here, but I personally know several people running 12-sec quarter miles with their V8 Getrag Fieros with ZERO trans failures. They all have more than 3 runs under their belts too. One has a solid engine, solid clutch, and 255 section roadrace tyres too... I will let him respond to you though Best! Ben. PS: Didn't pat have a 600hp small block, with an ADDITIONAL 200shot? PPS: read above everyone, the *tranny* has to have failed, not the pressureplate/clutch, which would then cause a subsequent tranny damage/explosion.) [/B]

Dennis, do you ever get tired of saying the same old thing, same old thing, same old thing, same old thing? Or do you like just Cut & Paste your story everytime?

In every Internet forum from the Fiero-List to PFF you've saying same old thing. At least 100 people over the years have told you that you were wrong, you totally ignore all of them. Pat tells you his story about transmissions and you hinge on his every word. Like a Philadelphia Lawyer, you ONLY hear the statements that support your opinion.

You were full of yesterday, you're full of today and you'll be full of tomorrow.

You and EDsB52 need to get together and form a Club. You could call it the group.

Archie

I'll go on record that my Getrag has 120,000 miles on it, 30,000 of those miles are with the 350 in it. It isn't making any funny noises or acting up that would indicated it's wearing out. I don't "light foot" around, what you hear in the sound file next to my signature, is a very normal trip out with the car.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-13-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: [b]Fact is; The GETRAG is not a suitable tranny for a high power SBC. [/B]

Now why'd you ruin a perfectly good thread with bullsh*t which does not even pertain to the question posed?

Nobody asked to compare autos to manuals.

No one even asked about the strength of the Getrag.

Before you tell us that the earth is flat, why don't you walk it.

Farknocker

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I find this thread on clutch strength amusing.

Hi Dennis,

Glad we can give you a little entertainment! Now, unless you are going to shed some light on the topic at had (clutches) please either state your opinion/recommendation about such or go start another thread about trannys. I've seen enough V8's running getrag/V8 combos that I'm taking your tranny comment as, well like most every one here . I realize that once you start to hot rod a car you always risk the chance of breaking something. That's not the topic of discussion here and I would like to keep it on track if I may. The clutch is my concern here.

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

quote Originally posted by Hairy_Fiero: Well, I agree the Getrag will not fail easily.. However, they do. Ed Parks has spoken about a 5spd getrag completely blown apart by a 4.9 Cadillac v8. this car was used for racing purposes.. I have no evidence just what he spoke of. I have no doubt he was telling the truth.

That would be the Team Python car. That failure wasn't the transmission. It was the Torsen differential. That transaxle would have been fine for years to come if it had an open diff.