Bump

Hey Tom, are you coming to the Dells event this weekend? It'd be nice to experience that QM clutch first-hand before dropping a grand on it.

Dave

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- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes

Friggin' delays!!! Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Motor is still in the works. Looks like no joy till mid/end June. I hate waiting. Anyway, will bring this thread back to life when I get the engine. Ta ta for now! (as I creep off with a baseball bat to get the machine shop in gear )

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! FINALLY got me a tracking number for my new motor! Estimated delivery date is set at the 21st. Probably won't see the motor till sometime next week, but at least I KNOW that there's a big a$$ package on the way!

I'll post pics when it arrives.

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

Update on clutch life: Well I've got 17,000 miles on this set of QM Disks and the first signs of slipping has appeared. I could probably get another 2,000 miles before replacement if I drove it like a normal car, only noticing the slip in the upper torque range when disk's are cold. Considering what I put this car through I am not at all disappointed.

Time for me to make a list of additional things I want done while the car is up on the hoist with the trans out. Like paint trans case, new needle bearing/seals for trans output case, jet hot coat headers/exhaust system in color, etc.

Having seen the thickness of a QM disk first-hand, I'm surprised they lasted that long, CK. The FM depth on either side couldn't have been more than 1/16". There has to be a better way.

Dave

Dave, the reason the material is thin is because it will retain less heat, which kills torque holding power. The material QM uses is a hybred composite and very hard "cast like" material, difficult to mark it even with a knife. It appears they bond the "cast material" to the steel disk, then put the disk in a machine to grind both sides "true", as there are fine grind marks on the new disks. Pics below:


I'm very satisfied with this kind of holding power and mileage until someone finds a way to beat this setup, so far I've found no one.

Yep, I was awfully close, I count 3/32". If it were a car tire it would barely pass inspection.

quote I'm very satisfied with this kind of holding power and mileage until someone finds a way to beat this setup, so far I've found no one.

Yes, but our goal here, after all, is to see if we can find one that gives the kind of holding power that the QM does but with equal or better drivability and a minimum of double the service life.

I talked to a guy today, a Cadillac mechanic with an '86 SE, who says he's pulled the engine and trans out the top by removing the rear coolant plumbing, the slave cylinder and the balancer in addition to the usual stuff for a cradle drop (fuel, electrical, etc). Maybe then a clutch job wouldn't be so bad, but it's still a big deal to have to do it every 15k. I just turned over 20k on my 3.4 car with an OEM replacement clutch with no problems at all, but I would not be a happy Dave if I had to do a clutch job in it already. Unfortunately the longevity factor rules out the QM for me, unless they could engineer a higher-mileage version of it that would work for us. They're only about 10 miles east of Archie's shop, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask - unless someone has already had that discussion with them?

Dave

Already had that discussion with QuarterMaster, the only solution they could offer was their triple disk setup, which requires some re-engineering of parts on our cars to package.

If your putting out less than 300 ft lbs of torque, you don't need this setup. In my case, I'm well over that, so you pay a price. My car is seasonal use only, about 5,000 miles a year, so the expense of putting new disks in every third year isn't a big deal to me (especially for the enjoyment that I get out of the car). On the up side of things, when the clutch disks are changed, all bolts (suspension parts, trans mount, engine mounts, etc) are checked for torque.

Doing real high horsepower/torque mods on the Fiero isn't for everyone, it can get real expensive. It's an area that few of us have wandered into, so there aren't many purpose built parts, off the shelf, cost effective, to make life easy for us.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: If your putting out less than 300 ft lbs of torque, you don't need this setup. In my case, I'm well over that, so you pay a price.

I'm not sure what the peak torque number is, but I know mathematically that at 6000rpm it's 380 ft-lbs based on the other numbers I have. I would guess a peak of about 15-20 or so higher than that somewhere between 5k and 6k. Still a lot, but I wanted it up high. I did not want a mega-low torque motor like an L98, I wanted one that would pull all the way to 6k, and this one sure as hell does that.

Chester, you'll be pleased to know that it's official, we're going to do a SPEC in my car too. Even though my motor's a bit milder than yours will probably be, it's still a significant datapoint.

Dave

Looking forward to reports from both Rob and Dave. Keeping fingers crossed that this new setup holds up for a long time.

I am ready to get this bad boy.
Been ready for about a year AMOF.
But, I do not want to do it myself.
I have been meaning to give Archie a call to see if he has had the time to play with this setup in one of his cars yet.

I hear there is some mayor and crucial issues regarding the alignment of the disks and perhaps some small machining.
I already screwed up my first DF Centerforce setup due to lack of knowledge on the install. That cost me big $$$$.
I don't want to blow 1K the same way.

I need some one with experience on this to do the install for me.
Don't mind paying for a job done right.
So, I rather drop FieroLT1 at Archies and be done with it.

How about it Arch?
Hell I'll even stay and give you guys a hand.
No charge!

------------------
Winston Ojeda
88 Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1
wojeda@FieroLT1.com

quote Originally posted by FieroLT1: I hear there is some mayor and crucial issues regarding the alignment of the disks and perhaps some small machining. I already screwed up my first DF Centerforce setup due to lack of knowledge on the install. That cost me big $$$$. I don't want to blow 1K the same way.

How did you manage to screw up your Centerforce?

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Chester, you'll be pleased to know that it's official, we're going to do a SPEC in my car too. Even though my motor's a bit milder than yours will probably be, it's still a significant datapoint. Dave

Cool. Will give us a more data to go by. Are you planning on dynoing the car once its complete?

Rob D.

quote Originally posted by chester: Cool. Will give us a more data to go by. Are you planning on dynoing the car once its complete?

Of course. David Norton at SPEC assured me that there would be no problem with a 400ft-lb. motor on the stage III clutch.

There is a 350 mile break-in of typical city driving, which is gonna be hell, but I'll be breaking in the motor too so it's compulsory.

It will be at Archie's on Monday or Tuesday of next week, and everything should be ready to go for that install. There have been requests for this to be an online-buildup similar to the Stinger, and Archie gave that the green light, so be on the lookout for that topic to start here on Pennock's next week.

Dave

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- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's in Chicago
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes, both stuck in Virginia

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Originally posted by chester: Cool. Will give us a more data to go by. Are you planning on dynoing the car once its complete Of course. David Norton at SPEC assured me that there would be no problem with a 400ft-lb. motor on the stage III clutch. There is a 350 mile break-in of typical city driving, which is gonna be hell, but I'll be breaking in the motor too so it's compulsory. It will be at Archie's on Monday or Tuesday of next week, and everything should be ready to go for that install. There have been requests for this to be an online-buildup similar to the Stinger, and Archie gave that the green light, so be on the lookout for that topic to start here on Pennock's next week. Dave

I guess we shall see. My motor is scheduled for delivery on Monday 'bout damn time!

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 06-24-2002).]

Long story short, the bolts from the pressure plate to the flywheel were not torqued to specs. The clutch would barely disengage.
Still, we managed to take it for a spin around the block just once. (a very bad idea).

Wound up burning the plate, the disc and also the custom LT1 flywheel.

quote Originally posted by Will: How did you manage to screw up your Centerforce?

------------------
Winston Ojeda
88 Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1
wojeda@FieroLT1.com

Chester:

Thanks for posting the "build" on this site. I can not wait! Doing something simmilar on my 86GT.

Off topic question. Could ya' also take some shots of the wiring harness? Mine has been out for two years, & Archies' video does not show enough detail for me (novice on my part).

Hope all goes well!

John

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1986 GT 355 Chevy 420hp

Are these clutches available for the 4 speed? California Kid? Thanks
ICY

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: Are these clutches available for the 4 speed? California Kid? Thanks ICY

They aren't direct replacement parts, flywheel will need to be machined, best thing to do is contact QuarterMaster and explain your setup.

The QM clutch is the kind of part that would make sense to change the REST of the car around...

It's not a drop-in for any Fiero, though it does fit the getrag with 'only' a custom flywheel, and some mods to the release bearing. (for a getrag, I've no idea if it will even clear a 4-speed or issuzu.)

I don't see what the big deal is, clutch change on a street 355 is about 15kmiles :P)

PS: Tom; I belive the same titanium toothed wheel that QM uses for the 2-plate organic is used in the 3-plate metallic ) (metal discs are thinner.)

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: PS: Tom; I belive the same titanium toothed wheel that QM uses for the 2-plate organic is used in the 3-plate metallic ) (metal discs are thinner.) Best! Ben.

The picture is becoming clearer now! They sent me the wrong set of disks (box of 3) about two years ago. They looked just like mine, but instead of the black friction material, they appeared to have a very thin amber coating that was only just slightly off the surface in thickness (like 0.3 mm thick). I called QM thinking that the disks missed the operation where the lining was supposed to be positioned on the "glued" surface. They informed me that someone screwed up and sent the metallic disks.

Those might be pretty tough to use on the street, your going to have to release it quick and these will really create positive lock up. You've got "mega" surface area compared to the metal disk shown above in this string. On the down side, it rules out going 3 disk organic, unless you shim the housing ring slightly away from the flywheel and have QM make some disks with just slightly thinner lining than they currently supply (shouldn't be a big deal, minor adjustment to machine that surfaces lining material).

I need to investigate further now, as Keith Huff said the 3 disk wouldn't package without modification to the trans (supposedly splined portion of trans shaft just slightly short to hold 3 disks, from what I was told), and I thought he was talking organic 3 disk. Now I wonder if the 3 disk metallic (since it uses same housing) will work in my car??? I had a machine shop machine off 0.020" of the QM housing ring (maiting surface to flywheel) to improve the clutch stack (little less air space between disks on disengagement). Worked real well for the organics, new disks grabbed when clutch pedal was just sligtly off the floor, and after break in the pedal engagement height was pretty darn close to normal. Would probably need the 0.020" back if I went to metallic 3 disk setup (shim ring is easy, ).

How are they doing on your setup? Be sure to post some pics when you get the parts.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-24-2002).]

quote Originally posted by 1986GTV8: Chester: Thanks for posting the "build" on this site. I can not wait! Doing something simmilar on my 86GT. Off topic question. Could ya' also take some shots of the wiring harness? Mine has been out for two years, & Archies' video does not show enough detail for me (novice on my part). Hope all goes well! John

No prob and sure thing. Only problem is that my wiring is different cause I'm setting up an Edelbrock Pro-Flow fuel injection system that has its own wiring harness. If I can't get you what you need then I'll talk to boomtastic who is in process of a swap as well

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org

quote Originally posted by 1986GTV8: Chester: Off topic question. Could ya' also take some shots of the wiring harness? Mine has been out for two years, & Archies' video does not show enough detail for me (novice on my part). Hope all goes well! John

I have a short very detailed video on wiring if you need it.

LMK

Archie

YES! I need the video.

How do I go about getting it from you?

Thanks Archie.

John

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1986 GT 355 Chevy 420hp

quote Originally posted by crazyd: [QUOTE] Of course. David Norton at SPEC assured me that there would be no problem with a 400ft-lb. motor on the stage III clutch. Dave

Is this what you were expecting Dave?

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: Is this what you were expecting Dave? Archie

We don't even need to install that thing to know it's not going to work. I'd say Mr. Norton and SPEC have some explaining to do when they get to their top-floor corner offices in the morning.

Dave

quote Originally posted by Archie: Is this what you were expecting Dave? Archie

Dave, I don't see a big difference between the picture above and this one Chester posted

Archie

Is that what he calls the stage 3 clutch? Doesn’t look too much different from the one I have. Can't tell if the pad material is the same or not. Let us know what Dave says when you talk to him crazyd. I'm getting ready to do the install in the next couple of weeks.

Oh, also why do you feel that it won't hold? Just cause it’s shaped like the one on Archie’s wall of shame? (Is this a setup or what? ) Don’t necessarily mean that it’s using the same pad materials. (I hope )

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org

quote Originally posted by chester: Is that what he calls the stage 3 clutch? Doesn’t look too much different from the one I have.

Why, in the space of two weeks, would we get shipped two different clutches in spite of requesting the same one? Why, after you tell them you're doing a big buildup of a megamotor on a major online Fiero forum, you get one clutch, and then I, Joe Nobody, get a different one? Something smells very fishy here.

quote Can't tell if the pad material is the same or not.

I think it's obvious that it isn't.

quote Oh, also why do you feel that it won't hold? Just cause it’s shaped like the one on Archie’s wall of shame? (Is this a setup or what? )

The resemblance is uncanny, don't you think?
It looks exactly like the Wall of Shame clutch. I've stared at that thing in person long enough to know it as soon as I see it.

Dave

quote Originally posted by chester: Archie, Can you assess and tell us if the pad material looks to be the same as some of the clutches that you have had fail in the past? Namely the four puck (if I recall correectly) hanging on your wall. Could you possibly post me a pic of the two side by side as well? Just curious. What do you think Archie?

I can post a picture of the 2 side by side tomorrow.

I saw Chester's clutch in person at Carlisle and as I remember it, the material on Dave's clutch appears to be similar in texture and content to what Chester has. Overall color doesn't match.

The material on the FS Clutch is wimpy lookin compared to the 2 clutches pictured above. There is no doubt that the FS clutch IS NOT the same material as the 2 pictured above.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: I can post a picture of the 2 side by side tomorrow. I saw Chester's clutch in person at Carlisle and as I remember it, the material on Dave's clutch appears to be similar in texture and content to what Chester has. Overall color doesn't match. The material on the FS Clutch is wimpy lookin compared to the 2 clutches pictured above. There is no doubt that the FS clutch IS NOT the same material as the 2 pictured above. Archie

Thanks Archie, will be looking forward to those pictures.

Rob D.

BTW I'm still going with it.

Rob D.

"Four Puck" clutches are some of the best gripping single disk clutches made. They are aggresive, but thats the price you pay for a race clutch. These clutches are all about NOT slipping, they sacrifice everything in terms of ease of use(don't want to be in rush hour with one of these) and they ussualy come with a high clampload pressure plate that requires more pedal effort.

The Fiero Shop clutch that Archie used is not a good example of a four puck clutch.

I may end up buying the stage three after talking to SPEC for the last 6 months. I wouldn't mind the extra pedal effort with this clutch, if you ask me I think this is the sort of thing that adds to the character of a sports car IMHO.

Jim
87 GT T-TOP V8
87 GT For Sale!

[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 06-26-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: I saw Chester's clutch in person at Carlisle and as I remember it, the material on Dave's clutch appears to be similar in texture and content to what Chester has. Overall color doesn't match. The material on the FS Clutch is wimpy lookin compared to the 2 clutches pictured above. There is no doubt that the FS clutch IS NOT the same material as the 2 pictured above. Archie

Rob, I ordered SC883, the stage 3 clutch. Are we even talking about the same part? Did you order exactly the same thing, or is yours a stage 4?

We've seen four-puck clutches fail before on very mild motors, apparently that classification is meaningless. I'm not looking forward to being another statistic. I also think increased clutch pedal effort is a natural consequence of a pressure plate with higher grip, I don't mind that a bit. If the girlfriend doesn't like it, I guess I'll just have to get a different girlfriend!

Oh, and that "other" clutch (FS) is not Fiero Store...

Dave

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 06-25-2002).]

Hey Tom! I belive that if you got another set of those discs (you're right, they probally grab like a mother...) and a fresh ring, It'd probally go together (new floaters of course.)

What the hell, feel like tryin it? I'm thinking I may order a set myself, and just try both. (especially incase the organic ends up being 'too soft" :P)

Be intresting to see. The 3-plate will have lots of surface area under relatively lower pressure, might be just enough to get off the line withought stalling at about 2k. Maybe.

The 3-plate metallic is rated at holding *1,150lb-ft OF TORQUE!!!* (and that's not a typo.)

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Rob, I ordered SC883, the stage 3 clutch. Are we even talking about the same part? Did you order exactly the same thing, or is yours a stage 4? We've seen four-puck clutches fail before on very mild motors, apparently that classification is meaningless. I'm not looking forward to being another statistic. I also think increased clutch pedal effort is a natural consequence of a pressure plate with higher grip, I don't mind that a bit. If the girlfriend doesn't like it, I guess I'll just have to get a different girlfriend! Oh, and that "other" clutch (FS) is [b]not Fiero Store... Dave [/B]

Hmmmm.... Well the one I got is a SC883X, or at least that’s what is on the receipt. A lot of this is inconclusive to me. Yeah, so the clutch disk looks different. It my have been a revision to the disk. Yeah, it APPEARS to be similar to the one on Archie’s wall. He already stated that the pad material IS different. I'm not trying to defend SPEC by any means but if you look toward the beginning of this thread, you'll notice that we are in search of an option that works other then what we already know of (Like the Cali Kid setup). We know that the QM clutch so far is about THE ONLY setup that works. If you want something that’s a sure thing then you might want to reconsider. I, on the other hand, am taking the guys word that he knows his business and will continue with my project as planned. WE NEED TO KNOW! I NEED TO KNOW! Hell 450/450 is just a start .

Let us know what Dave says. I might even give him a call myself today.

Rob D.

I'm curious about something:

The current Archie clutch is basically a stock 2.8 clutch with some advanced design modifications (ball bearing diaphragm pivots, dual friction disc, etc.). These modifications are sufficient to allow the 9 1/8" disk to hold 300-350 ftlbs. I haven't heard any conclusive evidence to pin it down to a narrower band than that.

If the same techniques were applied to the 9 11/16" S10 clutch, it could theoretically hold about 15% more, or 345-402.5 ftlbs. This isn't quite the 450 ftlbs number that has been bandied about in this thread, but it's a definite improvment.

Archie, have you spoken with Centerforce about this possibility?

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Oh, and that "other" clutch (FS) is [b]not Fiero Store... [This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 06-25-2002).][/B]

Sorry! I meant Fiero SHOP not Fiero Store.

Jim