Originally posted by txumbro: Yea... sounds like part of the problem doesn't it, but is that the reason the clutch won't engage, or is there another problem. My worry is that when I do get a high performance clutch, the alignment within the transaxle will still not allow it to work. Or are the high performance clutches thick enough to fix the problem? I will up grade as soon as I get it moving.
What did you use for a flywheel? Tranny? You say that the clutch would not engage? So you put the car in first gear, let out the clutch and nothing right? Or do you mean it will not disengage?
Rob D.
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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 ) 2.5" Drop 11" Brakes 17" Revolutions RCC Coilover Suspension New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org
Hello Rob, Sorry, let me clarify. I have a flywheel that was sent to me with the Zumalt kit and a stock fiero 5 speed tranny. I have a getrag 5 speed in my garage, but I want to make sure my setup is correct before I risk putting it in. Anyhow, when I start the car (in neutral) it will not go into gear, you just hear it grinding. What do you think? Thanks, David S.
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01:36 PM
GT Bastard Member
Posts: 2243 From: Rapid City, SD Registered: Sep 1999
I'm not convinced that your hydraulic system is bled all the way. Have someone depress the clutch pedal while you look at the slave cylinder. How far does the rod come out of the slave cylinder when the pedal is pressed?
If you can put the transmission into gear while the engine is off, but not while it is running, and you have a full stroke from the slave cylinder (1.15") with a stock Fiero clutch, it is most likely that one of the hub springs has broken loose and is lodged in the pressure plate. Had that happen to me on my silver '88, which necessitated the 3.4 swap. http://web2.crazydave.org:81/fiero34project/pics/when%20clutches%20go%20bad.jpg
Well, after rechecking the bleeding of the clutch slave cylinder, inserting the bushing that was missing in the clutch pedal and even pushing the clutch arm manually, the clutch still didn't work. I am starting to think that the springs on the clutch may be hitting the flywheel and not allowing the clutch to engage. Is that a possiblity? I am not real sure how clutches work. This weekend I guess I'll drop the engine and see whether or not this is happening, unless any of you know better. Thanks in advance. David S.
And, recently I purchased a 5 speed tranny out of a 1988 Fiero GT. Simply based on that, I think it's a Getrag. Based on appearance, does anyone know how to tell the difference between the regular tranny and the Getrag? Thanks, DS
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01:18 AM
tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
Uh...oh... I thought that all '88 Fiero GTs had Getrags in them. I purchased one of an '88 GT, but it only has 7 bolts holding on the steel panel on the outside of the case, and no dipstick. Is this possible that not all Getrags have these characteristics? I'd hate to go try to find another tranny after just purchasing this one. David
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11:56 AM
1986GTV8 Member
Posts: 1259 From: Orlando,FL,USA Registered: Mar 2002
We have fired up Dave's car today, sounds very nice indeed. We've filled & checked the cooling system etc. Have not driven it yet.
Whenever I put together one of these cars, I methodically check every system on the car one at a time.
That checking leeds to the reason I'm writing this. After bleeding the clutch and while testing that system & getting ready to actually move the car under it's own power, we detected a little problem I've never seen before. It involved overtravel of the clutch and interference of the Diaphram fingers with the clutch disc. Since I've never seen this before and since this is the first SPEC clutch I've used, I have to say that this is unique to the SPEC clutch. I can't get into the details right now but I'm SURE THIS IS 100% CURABLE. We worked pretty late on the car tonight and have diagnosed the problem & I'm sure I have a plan for the cure.
I will need some pictures to explain the problem and more pics to describe the cure.
The purpose of this post is to ask that anyone who has that clutch and is about ready to drive it to please hold off for a day or 2.
AS soon as I have enough info & time to describe the symptoms, test proceedure & cure, I'll tell you all about it. I'm not sure that this will show up on all other Fieros with the SPEC clutch but so far AFAIK it's occured on 100% of the SPEC clutched Fieros I've done (which is just this one).
PLEASE NOTE that if you have the same situation as we found today & start the engine & try to push the pedal down and use the clutch, you will have a BIG problem.
If we had not noticed the problem we found today and had we just started the engine & pushed in the clutch to put it into gear, we would have wasted the clutch.
I'm sure the cure I have in mind will work, so don't panic. But PLEASE if you've just installed one of these DON'T try to use it yet.
I'll keep you posted.
Archie
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11:11 PM
Aug 21st, 2002
FieroLT1 Member
Posts: 320 From: MilwauKee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Thanks for the update Archie. We're all waiting in anticipation! BTW have you contacted David at SPEC to inform him of this dilema? What was his response?
Rob D.
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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 ) 2.5" Drop 11" Brakes 17" Revolutions RCC Coilover Suspension New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org
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07:45 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Hey, Archie, I've heard of 3800SC users with 5-speeds running into this problem as well. I believe Phil had that problem on his yellow Formula. The fix I've heard used was to install a pedal stop to limit clutch pedal travel.
Looking forward to more info!
------------------ Help Keep the Forum Beautiful, Ban Dude16!
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10:47 AM
BOILERMAKER Member
Posts: 1334 From: Indianapolis, IN, USA Registered: May 99
The clutch problem is cured, Archie will tune in later to explain it to everyone. I'm dropping in here to give my first impressions on the SPEC clutch.
1 - Extremely short pedal travel. It's probably a third of what it was stock.
2 - Consequence of (1), very fast pickup. Just a hair off the floor it begins to grab.
3 - Extremely grabby. It's like the on/off switch that CaliKid described on his QM clutch. This will require a LOT of acclimation from me, I've never felt anything even remotely like this before. Thankfully there is no shortage of low-end from this engine, but I suspect it would be even more difficult on a carbureted engine.
Haven't gotten it very far since it has few body panels on it yet, but will soon.
Dave
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02:41 PM
chester Member
Posts: 4063 From: State of insanity...moved in and comfortably numb... Registered: Jun 2001
Originally posted by crazyd: The clutch problem is cured, Archie will tune in later to explain it to everyone. I'm dropping in here to give my first impressions on the SPEC clutch.
1 - Extremely short pedal travel. It's probably a third of what it was stock.
2 - Consequence of (1), very fast pickup. Just a hair off the floor it begins to grab.
3 - Extremely grabby. It's like the on/off switch that CaliKid described on his QM clutch. This will require a LOT of acclimation from me, I've never felt anything even remotely like this before. Thankfully there is no shortage of low-end from this engine, but I suspect it would be even more difficult on a carbureted engine.
Haven't gotten it very far since it has few body panels on it yet, but will soon.
Dave
David said that the clutch will be grabby for the break in period of about 200-300 miles. Thanks for the update!
Rob D.
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03:13 PM
1986GTV8 Member
Posts: 1259 From: Orlando,FL,USA Registered: Mar 2002
Very interesting... Please keep us posted. Anyone make any further progress on the quarter master dual disc set up yet? I am even more curious on that one
In a previous post, I had mentions a small problem I had found with the SPEC clutch, that I had never seen before, & that I was sure that it could be solved.
I'm going to try to explain the problem and the solution now.
I'm sure that many of you have seen the subsequent reports from Dave & myself telling how much fun this car is to drive. So it should be clear by now that we indeed did find a fix for the problem. You'll recall that we had said the short release on the fixed clutch was like an "On/Off Switch".
Here is what the deal was & how we caught it.
We had bled the clutch on this car and, as I always do with any car right after we finish bleeding the clutch, we "static" tested the operation of the Clutch. Typically when we static test the clutch we do the following. With a driver in the car and the engine OFF, we have the driver put the car in gear & push the clutch down and we rock the car back i& forth. Typically the car will roll back and forth easily. Then we'll ask the driver to slowly let the clutch out so we can see when it starts to grab. In this case with the pedal depressed we could feel "drag" when rocking the car. As we were trying to rock the car, I had the driver start to let the pedal up slowly....... what do you know.... when he let it up just a little bit, the car began to roll very easily.
I immediately began to think that the clutch was over traveling & the diaphram was lightly dragging on the clutch disc it'self. After years of trying to maximize the travel of the hyd. system, could it be that now I'd have to find a way to limit the travel?
I immediately went to the PC and found pictures of the SPEC clutch. When compared to the CForce or the stock clutch it appeared that diaphram pivot points on the SPEC are closer to the center than any other Fiero clutch. Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The closer the diaphram pivot points are to the center of the clutch the more clamping power that diaphram will make. However, the closer the pivot points are to the center of the clutch the quicker the release is.
The following pictures show what we were seeing as we rocked the car back & forth.
You'll note in this overview picture that we taped a tape measure into position to be able to take comparative readings. The actual tape measure values are not important, only the differences are important.
Here is where the clutch arm was positioned when the pedal was all the way up.
Here is where the clutch arm was positioned when the pedal was pushed all the way to the floor. Remember in this position, with the car in gear and not running, some resistance was felt when we tried to roll the car.
After the pedal was pushed all the way to the floor then let up just a little to this position it would roll just fine. Also from this position we noted that if we let the pedal up just a little more, the clutch would start to engage.
The solution?......... How do you limit the pedal throw and still have it adjustable so you can dial it in?
Archie
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09:04 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by Archie: The solution?......... How do you limit the pedal throw and still have it adjustable so you can dial it in? Archie
Well you could put a piece of wood under the clutch pedal..... but with the very short release travel (this thing only takes about 3/8" total travel from off to on) you would have to be trimming the pc. of wood to get it dialed in just right.
You could put in a different length shaft on the slave cylinder so that the piston in the slave would bottom out at just the right time . What with the short travel you'd be adjusting the length of this rod several time..... & besides if make this rod too short too quick, you can bend the Banjo and have another problem to solve.
You can remove the master cylinder and use washers to space it out away from the front bulkhead. Plan to work on this for a little while to get it exactly where you need it.
All of these solutions would work but they are really tacky solutions. I recommend you take the high road and use the solution I worked out.
Enter Rodney Dickman...... He makes an adjustable Banjo. He didn't design the Banjo for this problem but it solves this problem just sweet as heck.
You will recall the picture from above that shows the perfect place we wanted the clutch arm to be in. We just left the tape measure taped in place and installed Rodneys' banjo (don't need the new pin shown next to my bus. card in the above picture). We adjusted the banjo so that when the pedal was pushed in the arm ended up in the same place as we had determined was the perfect position as shown above.
When Rodney 1st. came out with his banjo, he saw fit to send me one. His forthought made it easy to solve this problem for our customer in a professional manner. No wood pedal stops or hack saw or flat washers needed, a professional solution for a professional looking job.
Thanks Rodney for a well made part that solves a problem that didn't exist when you made the part.
Please note, this problem may not exist on all Fieros with a SPEC clutch but you'd be wise to check for it from the get go.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-25-2002).]
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09:35 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5542 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Originally posted by FieroLT1: How long do you think it will take you to put all those miles of the break in? I like to know if still grabs the same at WOT all the way to 5th gear.
So far it is definitely biting down and staying clamped through as many gears as I can take it, but it has no body on it yet and won't until later this week. Then I'm leaving for Bowling Green KY for the Corvette Museum labor day celebration, so Archie and I are both gone until after next weekend, probably Tuesday or Wednesday. If the paint work is done by then, we'll be putting lots of break-in miles on the engine and clutch next week.
Dave
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01:29 PM
FieroLT1 Member
Posts: 320 From: MilwauKee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Maybe it wouldn't work in Dave's situation because the trans is moved over to the drivers side( and may have clearance issues), but why couldn't one place washers in-between the slave and mounting bracket? Would seem to reach the same goal without having to order parts. Not an issue with me... For I have no plans to use it, but would seem allot easier unless I am missing something. But I do have to say it is hard to go wrong with one of rodneys parts.. I am a very happy customer myself
The slave cylinder is self adjusting. If you put 1/8" of washers between the slave an its bracket, the piston will just sit 1/8" further out in the bore. Master cylinder travel is what determines how ar the slave travels.
We either need to visit the dyno together or hit the dragstrip together VERY soon - then hit the scales. I'm only about 20 miles away from you, and I'd love to see how these two match up in weight, sound, power and quarter mile now that they're both finished.
Dave
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12:48 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Hey Dave agreed... Although I think you would have me beat... I think you have more ponies. But you never know. I would love to see your car regardless. I have been told that an LS1 is 91 lbs lighter than an LT1 so I think that would be about our weight difference. I only have about fifty miles on the engine so like you I need to break it in some more too before I do some real testing. When are you available to meet up (and before any smart A$$es start ...not for a date LOL. ). I am thinking about going to cruise night over in crystal lake Thurs., but I am not sure yet..... I am still running open pipes( long story). Might be pushing my luck. If nothing else you could come over to my house.
Knew I must be missing something it seemed too obvious to overlook. Oh well never too old to learn something.
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09:09 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by Will: What's the dimension from the tops of the bolt heads/the surface with which they are flush to the friction surface?
I'm trying to figure out packaging that in my N* conversion.
Conical Bolts sit flush with flywheel (same plane as bottom of steel insert ring), requires very accurate machining to match flywheel bolt pattern to crank. Also, locktite (non permanent) is recommended.
Originally posted by LS1swap: [B]Hey Dave agreed... Although I think you would have me beat... I think you have more ponies. But you never know. I would love to see your car regardless. I have been told that an LS1 is 91 lbs lighter than an LT1 so I think that would be about our weight difference. I only have about fifty miles on the engine so like you I need to break it in some more too before I do some real testing. When are you available to meet up (and before any smart A$$es start ...not for a date LOL. ). I am thinking about going to cruise night over in crystal lake Thurs., but I am not sure yet..... I am still running open pipes( long story). Might be pushing my luck. If nothing else you could come over to my house.[B]
Woodstock to Crystal Lake without an exhaust wouldn't be too bad with earplugs. You can probably get away with no exhaust on the street more easily than I can with no body panels on it! (Body-off painting)
I'll PM you my phone number, let me know whether you're going to Crystal Lake tomorrow. If not I can drop by your place. My car is over in Lake in the Hills at a body shop now.
Dave
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01:31 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
........ just got back into town a couple hours ago.
