I'm gathering all the parts for my V8 conversion and am at the point of getting the clutch. What is the best streetable clutch for a 350/getrag combo using Archie’s kit? I'll be pushing well over 400hp/400 torque. I would like it streetable. Don't want much do I . Anyway, would like to hear your opinions before I commit. Part numbers and sources are a great plus!
Oh, and please, lets not turn this into a clutch flame thread.

Thanks!

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 05-07-2002).]

The Center Force Clutch sold by Archie is very streetable. There's no noticeable difference in the pedal effort and I believe that the clutch hold is superior to all except the real exotic stuff (which wouldn't be streetable anyway).

Farknocker

Tough call if you're going to go above 400/400...

In that rareified region, you're starting to talk about a truely exotic car, and a car that can have issues with even the CF clutches. (this is what I hear, second hand. I do not own a SBC350 Fiero

California Kid AKA Tom I belive has blown a CF clutch, though his car is a Zumwalt kit, and I do not know if it was an Archie CF, or

PS: when I say 'blown' I do mean exploded... Parts don't just 'fail' at 400+bhp...

In my N* car, I'm going with the Quartermaster setup, Tom has had this on his car for nearly 30,000miles so far. And asside from the fact that you will likely have to change it every 20-30k, at a cost of about only $200 for new discs(everything else is high quality billet Aluminum, or Titanium, and is retained). Our QM clutches are fitted with an *ORGANIC* friction compound, as opposed to the purely metallic hardcore racing version. (this exact clutch, in 2 and 3 plate variants, most of use the 2, is used in NASCAR Winston Cup race cars by the way... with metallic discs.)

The 3-plate is rated to hold 1,150lb-ft, the 2-plate 750lb-ft. It WILL NOT fail with your V8

Tom and others with the organic version tell me that there is some slippage possible, and that you can drive it like a centreforce that heats quickly (the discs are race depth, so a tad more sensative to 'riding the clutch' than a CF, but not too much more.)

I don't know that I'd put one in my *daily* driver, but in a weekend car, sounds like just the ticket for serious HP.

Ferrari's F40 had a twin-plate too.

I guess you could really go either route. $400 clutch that you can probally get 40-50kmiles out of, unless it explodes, or $1200+ clutch that you get 20-30k at the most out of, but WILL NOT SLIP, ever

Anyone with more than 400bhp/400tq in a Fiero with an archie CF care to comment on their reliability expierence? I'd like to get some numbers to replace my conjectire....

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Go Go Archie !!

quote Originally posted by artherd: Tough call if you're going to go above 400/400... In that rareified region, you're starting to talk about a truely exotic car, and a car that can have issues with even the CF clutches. (this is what I hear, second hand. I do not own a SBC350 Fiero California Kid AKA Tom I belive has blown a CF clutch, though his car is a Zumwalt kit, and I do not know if it was an Archie CF, or PS: when I say 'blown' I do mean exploded... Parts don't just 'fail' at 400+bhp... In my N* car, I'm going with the Quartermaster setup, Tom has had this on his car for nearly 30,000miles so far. And asside from the fact that you will likely have to change it every 20-30k, at a cost of about only $200 for new discs(everything else is high quality billet Aluminum, or Titanium, and is retained). Our QM clutches are fitted with an *ORGANIC* friction compound, as opposed to the purely metallic hardcore racing version. (this exact clutch, in 2 and 3 plate variants, most of use the 2, is used in NASCAR Winston Cup race cars by the way... with metallic discs.) The 3-plate is rated to hold 1,150lb-ft, the 2-plate 750lb-ft. It WILL NOT fail with your V8 Tom and others with the organic version tell me that there is some slippage possible, and that you can drive it like a centreforce that heats quickly (the discs are race depth, so a tad more sensative to 'riding the clutch' than a CF, but not too much more.) I don't know that I'd put one in my *daily* driver, but in a weekend car, sounds like just the ticket for serious HP. Ferrari's F40 had a twin-plate too. I guess you could really go either route. $400 clutch that you can probally get 40-50kmiles out of, unless it explodes, or $1200+ clutch that you get 20-30k at the most out of, but WILL NOT SLIP, ever Anyone with more than 400bhp/400tq in a Fiero with an archie CF care to comment on their reliability expierence? I'd like to get some numbers to replace my conjectire.... Best! Ben.

Thanks for the feedback Ben! Your help is always appreciated. I have a centerforce dual friction in my car now and really like its performance, but then I'm not pushing the power that I intend to. The car will be a daily driver during the summer days (3 miles to work daily). Obviously I'm not building this car to drive it like a granny so I will be abusing it during the weekends at the strip and the occasional ricer stomping . I don't want to pull the thing apart every other weekend either. So from your suggestions I'll consider this one for the quatermaster.

I know there is a LOT of V8's running with owners on the forum. NO OTHER OPINIONS??

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

Chester, I, as yourself, am using Archie's Centerforce clutch. I would second what Farknocker said, real smooth, good grab/hold. Mine is mated to a 300hp SBC. My guess to your 'few' responses is that most would be somewhat wary of +400hp to suggest what clutch to use. How streetable is 400+hp??? ie: 'idle' at lights?? J/K...
Enjoy, Sandy

quote Originally posted by cowans: Chester, I, as yourself, am using Archie's Centerforce clutch. I would second what Farknocker said, real smooth, good grab/hold. Mine is mated to a 300hp SBC. My guess to your 'few' responses is that most would be somewhat wary of +400hp to suggest what clutch to use. How streetable is 400+hp??? ie: 'idle' at lights?? J/K... Enjoy, Sandy

I don't have an Archie clutch right now. I have a straight centerforce dual friction setup which with the 2.8 holds up pretty good. I have noticed a few tag lines that claim they have 400+hp in a V8 configuration, hence me asking for advice. Unless those claims are bogus their input would be beneficial to me. Also, why do you seem to think that you can't have a "streetable" 400+ hp engine? I'm putting an Edelbrock Pro-Flow computer controlled fuel injection system on this motor. I don't think that idle is going to be a great issue.

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

What I'd like to know is... the relationship between the horsepower and the torque.
That is, what makes a clutch slip really?
Is it the HP or the ft-lbs?

Also related to this, why would a clutch slip in higher gears more than in the lower ones?

I know of a CF that holds exceptionally well on first and second gear, but starts to loosen its grip as rpms and gears climb.

Why is that?

Anyone?

------------------
Winston Ojeda
88 Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1
wojeda@FieroLT1.com

quote Originally posted by FieroLT1: What I'd like to know is... the relationship between the horsepower and the torque. That is, what makes a clutch slip really? Is it the HP or the ft-lbs? Also related to this, why would a clutch slip in higher gears more than in the lower ones? I know of a CF that holds exceptionally well on first and second gear, but starts to loosen its grip as rpms and gears climb. Why is that? Anyone?

Torque is what makes the clutch slip. On a Centerforce the grip increases with rpm so it would make sense the grip would be better in lower gears (usually higher engine speeds). Also, torque will follow the path of least resistance. In higher gears the input torque is not multiplied through gear reduction as much. You reach a point where the torque required to spin the tires (in higher gears) is higher than what it takes to make the clutch slip.

I'm doing a 4.9L and plan to use the Archie Centerforce. But then, my numbers will be <300 so it should hold fine.

quote Originally posted by FieroLT1: What I'd like to know is... the relationship between the horsepower and the torque. That is, what makes a clutch slip really? Is it the HP or the ft-lbs?

It's the torque. Just like it's the torque that kills everything in a driveline. Horsepower is a multiple of torque times RPMs. You can make a 350fp torque peak but if it is low in the RPMs, say 3500, you won't make much horsepower - only 233. Conversely, if the torque peak is only 250fp but it's at 7000rpm, you make 333hp.

quote Also related to this, why would a clutch slip in higher gears more than in the lower ones?

When you're in 1st gear in a Getrag, 3.5:1, times the final drive ratio, 3.61:1, the torque from the flywheel to the wheels is going through a 12.635:1 (3.50*3.61)multiplication--meaning for every 12.635 turns of the flywheel, the axles make one turn. The engine is pushing harder against the output shaft at that point because there's so much gear reduction through the transmission. On the other hand, when you're in 5th gear, the final ratio is 2.5992 (0.74*3.61). Since the gear ratio is so much lower through the transmission now, the engine is pushing harder against the input shaft. It's the same as riding a multi-speed bike. How hard do you have to push on the pedals in a low gear, versus a high gear? In the high gear you're putting a lot of stress on the chain, but not in the low gear.

Dave

------------------

- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes

IF you make that kind of honest power, the standard CF clutch supplied by Archie will not hold. I don't care what he or any other member tells you. In fact, a good rock sold 300 will blow that clutch away.

Here is the good news. You can go direct to Centerforce, and or through Archie etc. and ask Centerforce to custom build your assembly for more power. This can be done for around $250 additional on top of Archie's regular price.

I opted against this option when having trouble with my Archie/CF clutch on my high output engine. I had actually removed it and shipped it back to CF for a QC check. It checked out fine, but I was told direct from the source it won't hold on a consistant basis over 300 hsp. They at that time offered the upgrade.

Go for the upgrade and let us know.

I have a RAM 900 on that same engine now sitting on a ZF six speed in my 90 Vette. This clutch bites like a mother, but is difficult to manage in heavy rush hour traffic as it tends to be more on/off than smooth transistion.

FWIW, I have a CF DF clutch (this is not Archie's version) and it slips. 1st and 2nd gear is OK but if I drive agressive it will slip all the way through 3rd! My motor should be pushing over 350 ftlbs of torque. I have 9,000 miles on this clutch.

This clutch is installed correctly and has been properly broken in, I do not have a leaking main seal either. The pressure plate is just not up to par for high torque loads. I have contacted Centerforce and they said that they could make a pressure plate with a higher clampload. This higher clampload would make depressing the pedal a lot harder however. I don't mind a harder clutch pedal but Centerforce qouted me $300 for a new pressure plate.

I am currently looking for a replacement clutch with in the import community. They have the same size limits for clutch diameter that us Fiero owners have. There are many excelent import clutches that hold over 400 Ftlbs of torque, problem is getting one setup for a Fiero. I am still working on this, any info suggestions from anyone would be great!

Of course you could spend a $1000 and get a dual disc setup.

Jim
87 GT T-TOP V8
87 GT

Interesting point here.

Trivia question time:

How much hsp does the average Winston Cup/Nascar have?

Answer--from 500-700 hsp

Now, how large of a clutch do they use?

Answer--5" diameter.

Moral of the story. The diameter of the clutch is not the issue as much as many people think it is. The problem is how do you have a streetable clutch that fits the small transmission.

I guess the centerforce price has gone up to $300. The last time I checked was in 1999.

Good info here.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: It's the torque....Dave

Thanks Dave/Thomas!
That explains it, a little better. I had forgotten about the math behind this.

However, and speaking strickly from an LT1 stand point, where the torque curve is as flat as a table top though out the entire power band... couldn't you as well say, that is it the RPMS that make the clutch slip? since the SAE corrected torque behaves more or less like a constant here?

(just thinking out loud)

------------------
Winston Ojeda
88 Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1
wojeda@FieroLT1.com

I am no expert on NASCAR clutches so please bear with me but do they not use triple disc setups? If this were the case take the 5" clutch and triple its contact patch. Calikid has a modified dual disc setup that works great.

Jim

You can / should contact other companies for custom setups and prices. Always good to have more feedback.

As noted by Ben "Artherd" above this works excellent in the double disk configuration (triple disk shown). You can stand on it in 5th gear and it's positive lock. While it isn't designed for "street use", it is very streetable.

My engine HP/Torque

As far as idle, I idle at 1,100rpm smoothly, higher than stock idle was a result of custom burned performance chip.

------------------

http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

^

quote Originally posted by thomas_l: On a Centerforce the grip increases with rpm so it would make sense the grip would be better in lower gears (usually higher engine speeds).

Not on a Fiero Centerforce clutch. The Fiero clutch is too small to have the centrifugal weights on the Bellville springs that Centerforce is famous for. The weights are what gives the increased clamping force at hi rpms.

Just a reminder for people who don't know already.. The Centerforce Dual Friction clutch available from Centerforce is different thatn the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch available from Archie. Archie has the design customized for his applications and holds better than the "regular" Dual Friction clutch.

I've done lots of clutch research and as near as I can tell, once you get above 350HP, you need more than Archie's clutch. The Quartermaster is the only one I've read about on here that has been installed in a V8 Fiero with success at those levels. Other than that, you'll have to go with a sintered iron or 3 or 4 puck racing clutch that won't be streetable, and it'll chew up your flywheel.

Anything below 300HP, I'd go with Archie's clutch, hands down. 300-350, well, that's kind of a gray area, but probably still use Archie's clutch. Over 350, personally, I'd go with the Quartermaster, or something similar.

------------------
"I look up at the moon and wonder when we will be going back, and who will that be?" - Jim Lovell, Commander Apollo 13

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'll be calling quatermaster tomorrow to get things rolling. Thanks!!!!

Rob D.

BTW Centerforce lists Archies clutch on their website.

------------------

Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Not on a Fiero Centerforce clutch. The Fiero clutch is too small to have the centrifugal weights on the Bellville springs that Centerforce is famous for. The weights are what gives the increased clamping force at hi rpms. Just a reminder for people who don't know already.. The Centerforce Dual Friction clutch available from Centerforce is different thatn the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch available from Archie. Archie has the design customized for his applications and holds better than the "regular" Dual Friction clutch. I've done lots of clutch research and as near as I can tell, once you get above 350HP, you need more than Archie's clutch. The Quartermaster is the only one I've read about on here that has been installed in a V8 Fiero with success at those levels. Other than that, you'll have to go with a sintered iron or 3 or 4 puck racing clutch that won't be streetable, and it'll chew up your flywheel.

The "regular" Centerforce DF clutch is DF201914(-S). This is a high performance stock replacement clutch.

The "Archie" CF clutch is the newly released DF201502. I've been told by a CF tech rep that it's good for 350 ftlbs, although I've heard from users that it's shaky much above 300. I have this clutch on my Northstar, but haven't gotten to wring it out yet.

There is a possible step between the DF201502 clutch and the QM unit. The S10 2.8's used a 9 11/16" pressure plate. Centerforce currently only makes a stock replacement for this clutch. However, if they could be convinced to build a hi-po model of this clutch, it could certainly hold more torque than the 9 1/8" DF201502.

I think archies is 9-11/16. anyone else been told this?

------------------
JOEJOE Aol:SSFiero
Two 88FORMULAS Red & Yellow and a Black 86GT
SSFiero@Aol.com

quote Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: I think archies is 9-11/16. anyone else been told this?

According to Centerforces web site it's a 9 1/8" clutch.
http://cyber.virtualrep.com/centerforce/2001catalog/centerforceresults.tpl?db=2001catalog.txt&eqmakedatarq=PONTIAC&eqMODELdatarq=FIERO&yeardata=1986

Rob D.

Hey Rob; Talk to Mark Disch at QM, he's the engineer I'm working with on my (more custom, as I'm eliminating the flywheel in favour of a billet puck/ring-gear setup :P) N* QM clutch.

Since you're using an SBC, they will already have a clutch/flywheel ready for you!

Your work is going to be in the T/O release bearing area, talk to Tom/California Kid about that. (I belive the standard Fiero T/O bearing, modified just a little.)

QM already has the organic material discs for our cars, Tom can tell us how streetable it is!

PS: To everyone; this *IS* the clutch that the NASCAR guys use with their 700hp monsters (they use metal discs, which are NOT really streetable

PPS: As has been said, Archie's CF and an off-the-shelf CF are not created equal. Archie's unit is supior. Wether it's 400+lb-ft supior? I dunno, I ain't got no 350 :P)

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by chester: Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'll be calling quatermaster tomorrow to get things rolling. Thanks!!!! Rob D. BTW Centerforce lists Archies clutch on their website.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by chester: According to Centerforces web site it's a 9 1/8" clutch. http://cyber.virtualrep.co m/centerforce/2001catalog/centerforceresults.tpl?db=2001catalog.txt&eqmakedatarq=PONTIAC&eqMODELdatarq=FIERO&yeardata=1986 Rob D.

According to Archie, his clutch is not available from or referenced on Centerforce's website. It's made by Centerforce for him, and is available only through him. Ask him about it's specs.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: According to Archie, his clutch is not available from or referenced on Centerforce's website. It's made by Centerforce for him, and is available only through him. Ask him about it's specs.

So this:

1984-1988
AFTERMARKET V8 ENG. CONVERSION
V8 ARCHIE KIT 8 CYLINDER INCHES: 9-1/8 1-14 INCLUDED
DF201502
$379.95

Is not the clutch that Archie sells? Does reference his kit.

Archie, is yours a beefed version of this??

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 05-09-2002).]

quote Originally posted by FieroLT1: However, and speaking strickly [sic] from an LT1 stand point, where the torque curve is as flat as a table top though out the entire power band... couldn't you as well say, that is it the RPMS that make the clutch slip? since the SAE corrected torque behaves more or less like a constant here?

Winston,

No, the fact that the torque is essentially a constant on the LT1 makes the RPMs completely irrelevant. You're applying the same force to the input shaft regardless of RPMs, right? Roughly 320 ft-lbs the whole way across. So it is a question of how much the gearing of the transmission is resisting that force that is going to make your clutch slip. In each gear, that resistance is also nearly constant, with only Cd (aerodynamic) and mechanical friction changing it slightly as RPMs and speed increase.

Dave

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 05-09-2002).]

I have gotten a Star Performance Engineered Clutch model SC883. the stage three is supposed to be able to handle over 450HP. I can't comment on it as I have not completed the swap yet. I am putting in a 425Hp SBC. They claim to be better than Centerforce and say will last 10 times longer than a quartermaster. web site is http://www.specpwr.com/ best part is that including throwout bearing and shipping was still under $300! here is email

Thank you for the inquiry about SPEC products for your V8 Fiero. Our
>friends at C'Force and their Dual "Fiction" never cease to disappoint.
>Our Stage III Fiero unit, part number SC883, will make you a hero to the
>rest of the club. This is a street friendly clutch (unlike the
>Quartermaster), capable of 450+ ft lbs on stickies. It even features a
>sprung hub disc to keep detrimental shock off your Getrag. We build a high
>clampload plate, along with our carbon disc that frequents the Speedvision
>GT series. Pedal effort will be relatively light, and enagement traffic
>friendly. This unit will also easily outlast the C'Force and,
>exponentially, the Quartermaster. racer net kit price with bearings and
>pilot tool is $289.00
>Let me know if I can answer any other questions.
>
>David N
>SPEC
>800-828-4379

chester: let us know if the quartermaster slips at WOT...4th & 5th gear-

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 05-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by chester: So this: 1984-1988 AFTERMARKET V8 ENG. CONVERSION V8 ARCHIE KIT 8 CYLINDER INCHES: 9-1/8 1-14 INCLUDED DF201502 $379.95 Is not the clutch that Archie sells? Does reference his kit. Archie, is yours a beefed version of this??

The 502 is the same clutch that I've been using for about a year. At the time I started getting it from CForce it was not listed in the catalog nor Web Site. The statement quoted by Formula88 was correct at the time I wrote it.

I've been using CForce clutches for about 14 years on all of my V-8 swaps. Whenever CForce comes out with something new in materials or construction I always get it several months or more before it is available via their catalog (or Web Site). After I've run the stuff for a while, CForce then offers it to the general public. Next time you see an even better clutch for the Fiero on their web site you can be assured that I've been using it for many months already. They are using the reference to my company name WITH written permisson.

I'm not totally "locked into" CForce clutches, I always remain willing to test new promising ideas. So far, everytime I've tried such a product I've been disappointed.

(Think of me often)

But I'll keep trying to keep my products as good as I can.

Archie

quote Originally posted by G-Nasty: chester: let us know if the quartermaster slips at WOT...4th & 5th gear- [This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 05-10-2002).]

It doesn't slip no matter what gear you're in!!!

Additional note:
I'm happy the see that some members are considering high HP/Torque, just because they can give us some feedback on the performance of these other clutch setups. Too often you'll get a big sales pitch about how great their products are, only to find out they just can't cut it! When my car was converted they went through 4 different manufacturer HP Clutch setups before settling on QuarterMaster, because all the others didn't hold up to their claims. One manufacturer's clutch had springs in the hub and it lasted 500 miles as the entire center metal housing was ripped out.

As for people claiming the QuarterMaster has poor streetability, it wouldn't be in my car since '93 if that were the case. While it might be an expensive setup initially, the only thing that wears out are the two clutch disks, which run $160 for the set. Might as well add that it is an ultra light setup, clutch pak housing ring is titanium and the pressure plate is the lightest i've ever seen. This all translates into less mass to get moving, listen to the sound file by my signature.

With this setup you have to be very carefull blipping the throttle with the engine unloaded, because the rpm with jump into the red zone about as quick as you can blink your eye.

Not trying to be salesman for QM, just telling it like it is.

------------------
http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-10-2002).]

Lol!

Check the "Torque Cap" collum, <grin!> (acording to QM, our 'show car' orcanic discs sacrafice at most ~50lf-ft in sheering force capability.) how does *700lb-ft* grab you?

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by G-Nasty: chester: let us know if the quartermaster slips at WOT...4th & 5th gear- [This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 05-10-2002).]

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

I'm in the same dilema trying to select a clutch. As I understand it the quartermaster requires some modification before it just bolts up. Is that correct, and if so what needs to be done? California Kid, are you using a QM flexplate as well or something else?

quote Originally posted by California Kid: As noted by Ben "Artherd" above this works excellent in the double disk configuration (triple disk shown). You can stand on it in 5th gear and it's positive lock. While it isn't designed for "street use", it is very streetable. As far as idle, I idle at 1,100rpm smoothly, higher than stock idle was a result of custom burned performance chip.

Okay, let me start out by saying I'm finding this thread very interesting and informative. But I want to reiterate that peak horsepower is not what rips up a clutch, it's torque.

I'm a little fuzzy on some other things in this thread, though. Let's clarify what everyone means when they talk about streetability.

- Can you go from driving a regular street-car clutch to driving this QM clutch without having to re-learn it too much?

- Can you sit in stop-and-go traffic (Tom I see you're in Metro Detroit so you should know a thing or two about this) without stalling the motor every other time you try to get rolling in first gear? Nobody goes looking for traffic to get stuck in, but it does happen.

- Can you put a person with average clutch skills into it without them stalling it five times before "getting it", or does it take lengthy training and explanation? Sure, I can handle it, but what if the girlfriend or brother or good friend wants to try it out?

- Will the lack of clutch springs shock the Getrag into eating itself more rapidly than a clutch with springs? Can you even use a clutch with springs on a 400+fp SBC?

- How long are the QM organic pads supposed to last on average?

The claims made on the SPEC clutch sound more like marketing than the real deal to me, especially in light of it costing less than the CF or QM clutch. And what's this Stage 4 clutch they list too? Talk is cheap, would they drop-ship one for testing on a 400+fp SBC with the whole PFF watching its success or failure online? Their warranty states "Replacement Only" with loads of exceptions for abuse, misuse, incorrect installation, etc and there is no money-back guarantee. Smells very fishy to me.

Dave

------------------

- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes

quote Originally posted by crazyd: [QUOTE]Originally posted by California Kid: [b]As noted by Ben "Artherd" above this works excellent in the double disk configuration (triple disk shown). You can stand on it in 5th gear and it's positive lock. While it isn't designed for "street use", it is very streetable. As far as idle, I idle at 1,100rpm smoothly, higher than stock idle was a result of custom burned performance chip.

Okay, let me start out by saying I'm finding this thread very interesting and informative. But I want to reiterate that peak horsepower is not what rips up a clutch, it's torque.

I'm a little fuzzy on some other things in this thread, though. Let's clarify what everyone means when they talk about streetability.

- Can you go from driving a regular street-car clutch to driving this QM clutch without having to re-learn it too much?

- Can you sit in stop-and-go traffic (Tom I see you're in Metro Detroit so you should know a thing or two about this) without stalling the motor every other time you try to get rolling in first gear? Nobody goes looking for traffic to get stuck in, but it does happen.

- Can you put a person with average clutch skills into it without them stalling it five times before "getting it", or does it take lengthy training and explanation? Sure, I can handle it, but what if the girlfriend or brother or good friend wants to try it out?

- Will the lack of clutch springs shock the Getrag into eating itself more rapidly than a clutch with springs? Can you even use a clutch with springs on a 400+fp SBC?

- How long are the QM organic pads supposed to last on average?

The claims made on the SPEC clutch sound more like marketing than the real deal to me, especially in light of it costing less than the CF or QM clutch. And what's this Stage 4 clutch they list too? Talk is cheap, would they drop-ship one for testing on a 400+fp SBC with the whole PFF watching its success or failure online? Their warranty states "Replacement Only" with loads of exceptions for abuse, misuse, incorrect installation, etc and there is no money-back guarantee. Smells very fishy to me.
Dave
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I'll try to answer a lot of the questions.
First of all I'm using a modified Zumalt flywheel, which is light, and thinner due to the 1/2" engine to trans adapter plate. The flywheel was drilled and tapped for the 6 bolt configuration on the QM setup. It also has a harder steel insert plate for the clutch disk zone that is pressed into the machined recess the flywheel (this was a custom machined part for improved contact patch on my setup, yours may be different due to flywheel used, goal is 100% contact to lining on clutch disk's) Also I had 0.020" machined off the QM Titantium housing ring to tighten the "stack" just a little for improved mileage before replacement (not required but the disks last longer). All of this needs to be setup by a qualified person who know clutches.

Driveability: The only thing you do different with the QM setup is that you can't drive it like an ole lady. Excessive slipping or riding the pedal while your driving will result in glazed disks, once they are glazed they must be replaced. The same for trying to hold the car on a hill with slipping the clutch, it's a no no with the race disks (use hand brake). You drive it like a manual trans car should be driven, factoring out bad driver operation. What I mean is, engage and disengage the clutch fully in smooth and a little quicker steps than you would use with a factory clutch. It's very easy to learn, feels good, and it's the way clutches should be used for optimum performance (low heat).

Heavy stop and go traffic, I have had mine in the Woodward Cruise, 6 hours and only moving about 5 miles. The only thing giving me any trouble was my left leg.

As far as trans shock loading with a springless hub design, I think this is mostly BS. The main reason for spring hubs is to give the vehicle a "silky smooth" take off, do you care if a passenger with eyes closed doesn't know you just left a light?

Stalling Engine: Very hard to do, most V8's from 90's up are high torque, difficult to bog it. I can start rolling without even touching the gas and it won't stall. It's not an issue. Letting friends drive your car requires that you inform them not to slip the clutch, very little gas on takeoff, no riding the pedal during driving.

Life of QM clutch disks: It's important to understand that these are very high grip race parts. The lining is very thin so that it doesn't hold heat, which destroys the performance. QM will only make a general statement that the disks should last 10,000 miles. I drive my car very hard (harder than anyone I know anyway) and have 15,000 on the set that's in there now with no slip in any gear (under full throttle)at this time. A lot depends on a person's driving style, torque of engine, etc., everybodies car and skills are different.

I've driven quite a few clutch vehicles of which most feel like the clutch is "mussy". The QM setup gives you a precise feel that's hard to describe, it tells you everything that's going on. For a High Performance V8 Modified Fiero this type of setup is will have you wanting nothing more (unless somebody comes up with a better, cheaper setup).

Tom

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-10-2002).]

Ok well its a done deal! I got a clutch on the way. Did I go Quater Master you ask? Nope. Centerforce? Nope. I actually researched hillj's recommendation and went with the Star Performance Engineered clutch. I told him my expectations and he assurs me that the clutch will hold 450+ ft\lbs of torque. I hope he didn't think I was BSing him . Anyway, I told him of Pennocks and that I wanted to put out the word on his setup since it seems too good to be true at that price. I made him a deal. Discount for publicity. Worked out well ! He had no qualms on standing behind the product. I told him either they will sink or swim cause I'm going to publish my results no matter what. No problem. So I guess we'll know soon enough. They seem to do a lot in the Corvette department. The disc is a carbon ceramic composite and its supposed to last roughly 30,000 miles and be as streetable as a Centerforce DF. Anyway got one coming so keep ya fingers crossed cause those that know me know that I'll show her no mercy! I'll keep everyone posted once I receive it with pics and such.

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 383 V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

Looking foward to seeing the results.

quote Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: Looking foward to seeing the results.

Me too!