I'm trying to figure out what is gonna be the best cam/intake configuration thats gonna boost the most streetable horsepower/torque without changing the heads

The Engine is a Small Block Chevy 400 That Came Out of a 1974 Truck

Thanks Alot

Probably one of the best intakes for the SBC is the Performer RPM manifold from Edelbrock. If this engine is going into a Fiero the intake is a little to tall and will not fit with a regular air cleaner. If you use one of those completely open style air cleaners it will be smashed against the decklid so tight that it won't breath correctly. You'd have to have some kind of scoop, try using one of those intakes that go off to the side, or use the smaller Performer manifold which doesn't provide as much power.
Cam choice has a lot to do with what you're looking for and driving habits. Edelbrock makes a dyno matched cam for their intakes but the RPM cam is pretty agressive and you would at least have to change the springs etc in the heads or buy their heads that are also matched to the combo. The RPM set=up os good for 410 HP! The regular Performer set-up is weaker but just over 300 HP if i remember correctly.

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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts.
86 GT mod.
85 SE V6 daily driver

well my drivin style is basicly street only but I race alot on that, if I go with a 350 is the intake gonna fit better or is there 400 the same size ect? also if I change the springs, what kinda HP/Torque can I be pushing by just changing Springs/Cam/Intake Ect? Thanks For The Reply

If you want your engine to last, a stock 400 shouldn't be twisted over 5000 RPM.

I think the best intake choice would be an Accel Super Ram (or is it Mini Ram?)

The 410 figure is for the entire dyno matched set-up. Since you wouldn't be using Edelbrocks heads you might end up with slightly less but it would depend on what you did with your current heads. If you do some work on them you'll end up with pretty close power but probably still less then their 410 figure. I'm assuming these heads are 76cc heads and that will probably mean low compression. That will definitely have an effct on your output. The Edelbrock heads are 64cc, you'll need to wind up with at least 9.0:1 compression for this set-up to come close to the 410 mark. Wouldn't hurt to go with 9.5:1 and then do some port work to the heads, like a multi angle valve job and some bowl porting. Those are the most effective head porting methods for the street on a SBC, anything more you really won't notice unless you're racing. If you're not going to rebuild the engine then you can always have the heads milled to raise the compression while you're doing the springs, retainers, etc, and port work on them.
The Edelbrock heads are ready to bolt on but they cost a grand. They are aluminum and they are set-up for the combo already though.
The also sell a carb already set-up for the combo too. That's why i like Edelbrock, their entire set-up is dyno matched and all ready to go.

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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts.
86 GT mod.
85 SE V6 daily driver

Ok Sounds like I'll go with that for, any idea on a Cam Duration? or if I should go with maybe a 355 to get higher RPM's, thanks again.

All small block Chevys are the same physical size, and they all have the same deck height. The main differences are the bore and main journal sizes.

Be sure that whatever heads you use have steam holes in them. Only 400 heads and blocks had these holes, but they can be drilled into any SBC head using a 400 gasket as a template. If you don't do it you may (more than likely, will) have an overheating problem.

Late model Vortec heads are a great bargain at less than $500/pair, complete. The only caviat here is you will either have to use a Vortec specific intake (Edelbrock) or redrill the heads to accept an older intake. I think Scoggins-Dickey sells heads already modified for just a few bucks more.

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"Its a Fiero thing... Heck, even I don't understand!"

Timothy E. Smith
1986 SE V6
1984 Coupe
1996 Ford Probe GT
1999 Chevrolet Silverado Z71
1975 Chevrolet ElCamino SS

The Vortec heads sound like a deal but what kinda HP/Torque am I gonna be working with using them over stock ported/polished ect heads?

The Edelbrock Performer RPM is a great manifold, but it's too tall for the Fiero. Go with the regular Edelbrock Performer (not RPM). This is a lower profile manifold and actually is better for low end torque, although you sacrifice about 500 RPM on top end. BUT... like was mentioned, the 400 small block is a low end torque monster anyway. I would set your redline at 5,000 RPM, so the Performer manifold would be perfect. Choose a short duration, high lift cam to take advantage of the fat low to mid range torque. Ignore horsepower, torque rules and you have a major advantage with all those cubes. Want a great torque cam? Try the Comp Cams Nitrous 262 cam (see link). Don't let the "nitrous" name fool you, they are great cams without using the bottle.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2399&prmenbr=361

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 09-11-2002).]

I disagree strongly with the above. You already have a 400 cube engine which will produce great low end torque the very last thing you want to do is pick a low end cam.
Once you're past 3500 RPM (if even that high) you'll run out of steam fast if you go that way. Besides that; the RPM set-up has plenty of low end torque and much more torque then the Performer set-up odes actually. Even on it's own, the RPM manifold beats the Performer in every way, high and low end. If you can get it to fit with a scoop on the decklid i highly recomend going for this manifold. Don't believe me? Check out Edelbrocks dyno results for yourself at their website: www.edelbrock.com
I looked up the RPM set-up: 420 HP and 415 LB FT! I'd say that's enough torque for anyone and that's also using a 350 not a 400!!

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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts.
86 GT mod.
85 SE V6 daily driver

I could go with a 350...the 400 is sittin down the block at a friends for sale for 200 bucks, can I get that kinda HP and torque with stock heads though? say ported polished angle job ect done?

I see a lot of talk here about how much horsepower and torque you can get but nothing about the drivetrain. PLUS, it sounds to me like you are on a budget... If I were you I would worry about the drivetrain first and then build your motor. A stock Fiero drivetrain is going to be marginal, at best, with a STOCK 350 or 400 small block. You had better address the tranny, halfshafts and suspension/brakes before you dig a hole to deep to climb out of... Look at the big picture before you stuff alot of time and money into an engine that you can't use.
This is just my opinion, of course, but I have been there and done that with more projects then I would like to admit to. Save yourself some grief and build the car right the first time.

Yeah thats a good point, IM plannin on doin a 11" brake Upgrade...how much HP/TQ can a 84 Stick Shift handle?...talkin to a guy right now about tradin my laptop for his 84 SE thanks

Dave, I never found anywhere on the Edelbrock website that dyno compared only the Performer manifold with the Performer RPM. They only advertise dyno numbers for the complete systems. I'd like to see independent testing other than Edelbrocks claims. I've had personal experience with both. The Peformer RPM loses a little torque on the low end. I didn't dyno my small block I had this on, but after I switched to the regular Performer, I no longer had the low end bog. Now if you had a manual tranny, that might not matter as much, but I had an auto. Besides, I never ran the motor above 5 grand anyway.

With the cam I recommended, that 400 (or even a 350 for that matter) is not going to "run out of steam" at 3,500 RPM. Besides, those Edelbrock systems with manifold, aluminum heads, cam, and lifters are very expensive. Personally, as much as I love Edelbrock intake manifolds, I have been disappointed in their cams. Comp Cams are my number one choice followed by Crane Cams.

Slipknot, I have a tired and completely worn out 350 in my Fiero. It is a high mileage stock motor from a 86 Chevy pickup. It burns a lot of oil and smokes bad. Yet it is still awesome how it moves this little Fiero around. Build a good strong torque small block, even with slightly modified stock heads, and you'll have a nice hotrod. Those 400's sometimes have heating problems with those siamesed cylinders and lack of water jacket. You don't need anything that has heating problems in a Fiero. You'l be happy with a healthy 350, I'll guarantee it. Besides, just price pistons for a 350 and see how much they are cheaper than for a 400.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 09-11-2002).]

I've been playing with hi-proformance cars for about 40 years. I've spent 99% of my efforts on sbc I've over cammed, over-carbed and made mistakes. The best advice I can give you from my experiences is this-----Your car will be as good as your weakest link--- if you want 400 hp you can't skimp on parts. Stock heads will never give that type of performance, they were not designed for that performance level. If you would port, polish, mill and do all possible mods they still wouldn't flow as well as any of the after market heads. I suggest in buying a engine dyno program and doing mods on it so that you can see what the results of any mod will do for you. PERFORMANCE DOESN'T COME CHEAP and the best way is to do it right the first time. This will save you time and money on your car. --- alf

Ok....How Bout This...Change Cam/Intake get Say 300 HP or So and then Do 100 Shot of Nitrous...

Well said Alf. So true. I've also been there and done that too. But, my point is you don't need a 400 HP engine in a Fiero unless you're mainly racing the beast. If you're ona budget, good aftermarket heads are going to be awful expensive and not really needed for a strong torque street motor.

Besides the over camming and overcarbing mistakes I've done and seen others do, the thing that puzzles me the most is someone who spends mega bucks on head work, cam, and valve train parts... but then sticks stock cast iron exhaust manifolds on the thing. You want the heads to flow and also the exhaust to flow. Headers and free flowing exhaust are critical for hipo engines.

Slipknot, why not build a healthy torque monster that makes about 300 HP and then drive it and see if it has enough power for you. If not, you can always add the bottle later. If you ever plan on using nitrous, then good forged pistons are critical.Don't skimp there.

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BATBOY
1985 SE auto with a 350 Chevy V8 engine (Batmobile)
lowered, suspension mods, Grand Am brakes and wheels,
Trans Am hood louvers, side air scoop, DGP front spoiler,
front mounted battery, custom gauges, stereo mods, etc.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 09-11-2002).]

Got Any pics of the "batmobile"?

Also i Plan On using Archie's Kit But Im just wondering is there any other companies out that that offer V8 Swap Kits...no Offense to Archie At All (still will go with him Im sure)

Nitrous is NOT all it's cracked up to be. It will do what they claim, but only for a few minutes (or seconds) at a time. Then you have to go get the bottle filled- $$$. You will also have to beef up the bottom end, get forged pistons and add extra fuel plumbing- $$$$$$$$. You could spend the same amount on a good cam, Vortec heads and a good intake setup and have great, reliable power ALL the time. Maybe not as much power as you would have on the bottle, but the power will ALWAYS be there and will not break things.

Nitrous is great for racing, but not economical on the street. Contrary to popular belief, a good street machine should run strong, always start and be trouble free. Nitrous will toss your reliability right out the window.

Also, the 400 is externally balanced, not internally like all other small block Chevys. This means you will HAVE to use the 400 harmonic balancer and flywheel. That means you will have to scoot the engine to the left enough to be able to use the monster balancer and have a pully groove machined into it. Of course, the flywheel and balancer from Archie's kit can't be used. More $$$.

I think the 350 is the best choice. It is probably the cheapest engine in the world to build.

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"Its a Fiero thing... Heck, even I don't understand!"

Timothy E. Smith
1986 SE V6
1984 Coupe
1996 Ford Probe GT
1999 Chevrolet Silverado Z71
1975 Chevrolet ElCamino SS

first check and see what type of heads are on the engine. most sbc truck 400's came with casting number 882 heads. which are pretty much not worth doing anything with. all the cam's and intakes are not not giong do you alot of good unless you have good heads and hedders. as cheap as you are getting the engine for i would go with the holley systemmax 2 kit. comes with everything as a matched set, arp head bolts, pushrods, heads, cam, lifters, intake, ect for about $1300.00 its a great buy. but you may should just get your install (archie4sure) kit, and put it in and then see if you really think you need to spend around $1500.00 for all the other goddies on the top end. you can check out pics of my holley systemmaxx engine at: http://photos.yahoo.com/tonybowman_1

oh by the way this is false:
"Nitrous will toss your reliability right out the window."

good luck!!!

Hey Slipknot, I have lots of pics of my car.

Go to this link to see a side view of the cheap 1995 Grand Am wheels I installed. Note: this pic is before I started doing the body mods.

https://www.fiero.nl/uploads/batJuly2002.jpg

Go to this link listed below to read about and to look at my newly installed front and rear spoilers, plus the Trans Am hood vents. I have a 1979 Mustang hood scoop being shipped right now that I will install on the rear deck lid (with the opening facing backwards) to provide more cooling for the engine compartment.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/021203.html

Alright first; Edelbrock has never (to my knowledge) done any tests to compare their two manifolds but many magazines have. The result is always more HP and more torque. However, this is only after retuning the carb and timing. The RPM manifold is more agressive and you can't just throw on a part and expect it to work without makeing other changes.
I agree with the above about the stock heads. As i've said above; porting your heads will increase your power but they're probably the 76cc truck heads and aren't really worth the effort since they don't flow that well and are prone to cracking/warping.
Edelbrock has a set-up for the Vortec heads too and you'd be a lot better off with those and have more power if you can't afford their aluminum RPM heads.
The Holley system is good but it's the same thing. Edelbrock sets up their combo on the dyno for a proven set-up made to work together. You can actually buy an entire RPM engine if you wanted, although, it is expensive.
The drive train thing i don't agree with. I've seen Archie beat an isuzu 5-speed with a V8 and never have one problem. Actually, i've yet to see him break a trans or axle!
Give him a call and ask, there's no one here with more experience then him with V8 Fieros and he'll tell you the same thing.

Oops, forgot to add; the NOS thing is really not needed. If you build it right there really won't be any need for it trust me.
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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts.
86 GT mod.
85 SE V6 daily driver

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 09-11-2002).]

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: Be sure that whatever heads you use have steam holes in them. Only 400 heads and blocks had these holes, but they can be drilled into any SBC head using a 400 gasket as a template. If you don't do it you may (more than likely, will) have an overheating problem. Late model Vortec heads are a great bargain at less than $500/pair, complete. The only caviat here is you will either have to use a Vortec specific intake (Edelbrock) or redrill the heads to accept an older intake. I think Scoggins-Dickey sells heads already modified for just a few bucks more.

Good advice on the steam holes.

Also, If you use a 400 with Archie's kit, you'll have to have the engine balanced, OR moved two inches to the left to clear the balancer. Either way is expensive.

The Vortec cylinder heads REQUIRE a Vortec specific intake manifold. If you machine bolt holes and what not to accept a conventional intake, you'll lose all the benefit these cylinder heads have. They have raised roof ports. The intake ports on a conventional manifold won't match up.

If you want REAL info on Nitrous (and that's N2O, NOT NOS), then talk to 1FST2M6. He's more than doubled the rear wheel HP of otherwise stock 2.8's reliably with N2O.

Don't forget that most 400's were low compression motors.
Something to think about if you don't change the heads.

Sheesh Dave, you make it sound like the Performer RPM gives you HUGE performance gains over the Performer. It don't. Maybe a couple HP of so on top end (possibly 4-5 HP at most under the best conditions). Big deal. I'd rather have better off-idle throttle response and a better fit (being able to close the rear deck lid) by using the regular Performer with a STREET driven engine. The RPM model does lose torque in the low end,because it moves the torque peak up the RPM range slighly due to the manifold being a high rise.

Now if this is not a daily driver and you do a fair amount of weekend racing, that theory changes and you should get the Peformer RPM model. If this a wide open competition engine strictly for racing, then I might also consider the single plane Edelbrock Torker manifold. But, then that really kills low end performance, but the Torker manifold really gives you a significant top end gain. Just about anything that gives you more top end HP will sacrifice low end torque.

My point is to give this guy good advice about building a strong low budget torque engine that is mild mannered on the street, but has lots of low to mid-range muscle (right where 90% of all street driving is done). I've built a lot of hipo small blocks in my day (starting back in the mid-70's) and some of these radical engines were no fun to drive from stop light to stop light and would barely idle, even though they would scream at 3 grand and above. You can read all the Hotrod magazine articles you want, but I have real experience building engines and know what works and what don't.

quote Originally posted by cardealer: oh by the way this is false: "Nitrous will toss your reliability right out the window." good luck!!!

You're right. I would like to clarify myself on that one. If you use too much on an engine that has not been built to take the extra stress, you can cause a lot of damage. I have seen lots of guys severely shorten engine life by using too much on an engine not built to take it. If you spend the $$$ and build it right, you'll be fine.

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"Its a Fiero thing... Heck, even I don't understand!"

Timothy E. Smith
1986 SE V6
1984 Coupe
1996 Ford Probe GT
1999 Chevrolet Silverado Z71
1975 Chevrolet ElCamino SS

Batboy: you act like the RPM will lose so much power so there must be a difference right?
You misunderstand what i said; when changing to a more agressive manifold you must make other changes too otherwise there will be a loss on the bottom end. The RPM manifold will not lose you a giant ammount of low end torque like you seem to think it will as long as the engine is set up for it. You obviously put on the manifold without any other changes and noticed a loss of lowend torque. The loss is due to your cam, timing, carb not being tuned for it. It changed the combo. A highrise intake will effect low end torque but not to the degree you're talking about. Besides that; it's very simple to end this debate. Check out the dyno tests on the performer set up and the RPM set up and tell me which one makes more torque?
I do agree with you very much about the low end torque being important and that this is where 90% of street driving is done, however,
you need HP to continue the climb as you go on. I think having both is the real goal of anyone building a street car, they compliment each other.

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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts.
86 GT mod.
85 SE V6 daily driver

You're right about the need for all the components to work together as a system. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the Performer RPM was powerless, because it's a damn good manifold. But, it makes most of it's power from about 2,500 to 6,000 RPM. The Performer is without a doubt better at off-idle. Let's look at the torque numbers for 1,500 and 2,000, if we're going to compare dyno slips. I think we pretty much agree on most of the important stuff. Some of this is just boiling down to personal preference. Peace.