quote Originally posted by AkursedX: Of course there are a number of possible other transmission options like the porsche transaxle (Which as far as I know, no one has done) some VW 6-speed, and the Toronado transaxle. But, all of these will require the engine to be mounted longitudinally,

The VW 6 speed commonly suggested is a 6 speed conversion on a 5 speed TRANSVERSE VW tansaxle. It is a kit from a British shop installed by www.eiptuning.com with a Peloquin differential. It is used behind 500+ HP turbo VR6's with outstanding reliability, but it is still transverse.

It is several inches longer than a Getrag, so it would require a large chunk to be removed from the left frame rail, but it shouldn't be any more difficult than what's required for an LT1 swap.

What's been the obstacle thus far is that the transaxle is $5000+ by the time it hits your doorstep. And it needs a new adapter plate designed, and clutch mechanism sorted out, and custom axles, and shift linkage, and mounts, and... and... and...

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: ........The only ten second 1/4 mile Fiero that I have heard of is/was owned by Pat Ciarcia of C&C Performance in Mt. Pocono, PA. Pat ran a modified carbureted SBC V8 that also had a 200 HP Nitrous kit. I don't have details on what suspension he used but Pat used a modified TH-125H tranny which quite remarkably held up for four drag racing seasons. In short the car was specially built with all of the right parts ...........

I am stealing this post of Dennis's to "borrow" what info he gave.. A 10 second drag Fiero HAS been done.. but to say that this is a streetable Fiero is pushing it.. (and he used Nitrous to get there).. You are not inventing the wheel here.. but to say that anything of this magnitude would be street reliable is just funny.. and all the Examples that you gave about the other cars prove my point..none of them were in the 10 second bracket and to put their engines into a Fiero will only increase the weight of a Fiero..
I am still stressing the street reliablility point here..and you are still dreaming about a Hollywood production. It is not rocket science to point a car tromp on the gas and go 1/4 mile down the road.. (and wait for the weakest link to break) Also any "street Racing" in the 10 second bracket is totally stupid... Grow up...

One suggestion for all the people that are serious about building or positively discussing a Fiero drag racer: Ignore the naysayers and they will eventually go away! We did it in the other thread, and eventually the posts were all about making it happen. The only thing close to negative posts were constructive criticism, from fello enthusiasts who were still trying to help.

On to the reason for my post:

1. For all the people who are serious about building a Fiero drag car - would you consider running an auto, or do you have to have a stick? I am not referring to the TH125, I mean a new (to the Fiero) street/strip or full race auto that would pretty much bolt in, using stock axles. I have a really workable idea on how to develop these auto trannies, which could easily handle in excess of 1000hp. Price for an all out race trans would be less than the VW tranny and it would basically drop in. The street/strip deal would, of course, be cheaper.

2. Driveshafts will not be a problem when I finally get started developing my car. There will be bolt in driveshafts, also capable of handling 1000+hp, at reasonable costs.

3. I can even develop replacement cradles for a very reasonable price. Whatever breaks can be remedied.
   

What I am doing that is different from most of the approaches I see on the Forum is bringing some of the technology from front/rear drag racing with me. I was building a front-engine/rear-drive street-legal race truck until I started considering the Fiero! Today we were looking in some drag racing catalogs and mags, and while my Pro Street Vega buddy was drooling over 4-links, 30-33" wrinkle wall tires, and such, I was thinking how sweet it will be when my Fiero can hook up and run with him, but still handle better than the average sporty car!

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[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 10-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: and all the Examples that you gave about the other cars prove my point..none of them were in the 10 second bracket and to put their engines into a Fiero will only increase the weight of a Fiero..

I don't get it. Are you saying that taking an engine/trans combo out of a 3500+ lbs FWD car and putting that same engine and trans into an M/R Fiero with a final weight around 2800-2900 lbs won't decrease E.T.'s significantly?

quote Originally posted by Will: I don't get it. Are you saying that taking an engine/trans combo out of a 3500+ lbs FWD car and putting that same engine and trans into an M/R Fiero with a final weight around 2800-2900 lbs won't decrease E.T.'s significantly?

Hey Will I guess that I should have clarified this point

"There is one GTP running 11.9 seconds with a 3800SC, it weighs 3500LBS. There is a Bonneville which shares the same drivetrain that runs 12.3, and is looking for 11's soon. It weighs 4100lbs."

look here for a stock GTP SC weight.
http://www.consumerguide.com/index.cfm?act=auto&main=detail&body=../autochannel/vehicledetail/spec15350style42251

add the extra 100 pounds to your Fiero.. then do the math. I estimate that the Ficticious Fiero will not even hit mid 11's .. And our own Fiero X is already doing this combo and has not broken the 12 second barrier yet. (But I think that he will)..I also will believe him over this 90 day "AUTO" transaxle builder / boy wonder that has an "Idea" and is now "marketing" it for about 5 grand..??? (and of course, it will have a warranty)... Who want's to be the first sucker?? . 10's are still hard to get, and there are not too many people that would drive that heavily modified car on the street either... (and yes..nitrous is not part of a street package so that will drop off about 200 horses..???) and bring the ET back to the 12's (where we are already at...)

...I repeat...stop talking about it...just do it. And then I will ask for proof...

I don't believe it would be all that difficult to build a 10 second Fiero.

The difficult part is to still keep it streetable.

The easiest way to get quicker times is to take off weight, and rearrange weight to where it needs to be for the best, and safest, acceleration.

My autocross Fiero is down to under 1700 pounds, if you can get to aboout 2000 with V8 power, you should be able to get 10s with it. But that would require removing the radio, heater, air conditioning, and a lot of other "conveniences".

I would think that a competition built automatic would be the only way you could get into the 10s with any kind of reliability though, because of the tremendous amount of traction available with a mid engine car. It would probably break clutch system cars a lot more often because of the severe shock load the drivetrain would recieve on launch.

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Gerald Storvik

http://www.8shark.com/

I was hoping to keep the stick since I dont like autos, not that I think they are bad I just particularly like driving a stick. I was trying to look into webster gears but found nothing and cryo treatement which works wonders.

[This message has been edited by lt1 fiero (edited 10-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by lt1 fiero: I was hoping to keep the stick since I dont like autos, not that I think they are bad I just particularly like driving a stick. I was trying to look into webster gears but found nothing and cryo treatement which works wonders.

EIP offers the cyro treating. They say the price is based on weight, and that the average 5spd costs $495.

Will
Thanks for the info on the VW trans. I have looked at it on their site but never called to check on it. For a really serious street-legal Fiero racer 5G is within reason. That would mean at least six, maybe seven to have it operational. For comparison's sake, the top tranny in f/r street car racing is probably a Hughes Powerglide, which is about four grand. The serious guys don't run "over the counter" torque converters, they run $800-900 (and up) specially designed units. Then they have to have a strong (usually nine-inch) rearend built, so they could also spend six or better. I would consider the VW unit to be the top choice, at least for now, in a transverse manual.

What we need is an intermediate choice for the person who doesn't want to spend that much. Most of the f/r guys in my area run TH400's built by a nationally-known local builder (Rossler), for I believe $1200-1300. We need a 4 or 5spd for that price. I think the most cost efficient way is to beef up one of the trannies we already have, as the f/r racers do.

This was posted in the thread in GFC, thought it was a good time to bring it up again. I planned to look into it, because I may be starting with a Muncie:

quote Originally posted by Orief (mid-engine drag racing 101 / GFC): GM Super Duty 27mm drive axles with CV joints. Axle Assy, SD, RH 7845336 Axle Assy, SD, LH 7845337 Inside axle seal kit 7845027 Outside Seal kit 7847389 Super Duty 4-spd trans case 10042330 Webster Gears makes Super Duty Gear sets for the Muncie 4-speed trans with Quick change final drive. (415-388-1494) Final drives from 3:26 thru 4:26 will fit stock case. 4:40 thru 4:84 will require case modifications. 1st gear ratios: 2.69 2.47 2.28 2.11 2nd gear ratios: form .97 thru 1.95 3rd gear ratios: .95 thru 1.57 4th gear ratios: .97 thru 1.19

Might call them today. I prefer a manual too, I drive one every day by choice. The reason I am considering an auto is that they are generally more consistent and reliable, not to mention being friendlier to the rest of your drivetrain. My goal is to find the absolute limit of the 93.4" wheelbase (or even help someone else get there), and then begin on stretched chassis.

I believe there is really serious potential in the Fiero for street-legal drag racing. The main battle a front/rear car has is to get enough traction. They spend thousands to obtain what our cars have naturally! The two big challenges for us will be to find the weak links, and resolve them; and to control wheelstanding (for the real power junkies!).

In a manual car you can control wheelstanding with your left foot (clutch) but that can be costly. In an auto you can control it with trick "soft hit" convertors (initially costly but cheaper in the long run). The other thing is suspension tuning. I am considering using an externally adjustable coilover at each corner. I think our approach may be just the opposite of the f/r cars. We may have to limit weight transfer, as the front-drivers try to do - only we'll have ten times the traction. I am thinking that by stiffening the rear shocks and/or raising the rear ride height, we may be able to control the tendency of the front to lift.

All-in-all if you add it up it makes perfect sense. Why spend five to ten grand for a f/r chassis to get what a $1000 dollar Fiero already has! In time, there will be transmissions, axles, and whatever else is needed to make 'em fly! If we start flying in our cars I'll bet on the MR2 people wanting to do the same! That would draw more companies into making m/r specific drag racing products. Fiero vs. MR2 battles would fun too!

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Perkadelic, half the time I just shake my head in disbelief at some of your rantings and ravings, but this last post you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about on a couple things.

You absolutely need very stiff rear springs for a fast drag Fiero. Rear coil-overs with 400 to 450 lbs. spring rate springs would be my guess. A rear sway bar will help keep the rear end planted too. Solid mounted cradle, preferrable a 88 cradle is a must.

For a reliable drag racing drivetrain, you'll need to think outside "box" for trannies. One fairly easy tranny swap that is proven to hold up to a lot of power, readily available, and cheap is the front wheel drive tranny from late 70's to early 80's Buick Riverias and Olds Toronados. If I was building a drag Fiero that's what I would use (you have to cut out the trunk to mount the engine longitudally). See pic for a 455 Fiero.

As for people who bad mouth autos for drag racing, just go down to the pits at a professional NHRA Nationals event and see if you can find even one car with a clutch and manual tranny. It's tough to beat an auto for consistency and reliability when drag racing. You will need to get a high stall convertor, obviously.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 10-10-2002).]

wasnt there a streetable fiero out there with a northstar that ran 10s? i remember seeing pictures of it at a show and the forum went nuts over it.

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quote Originally posted by batboy: Perkadelic, half the time I just shake my head in disbelief at some of your rantings and ravings, but this last post you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about on a couple things...

Thanks Batboy, I'll take that as a compliment, of sorts. Actually I know more than it would seem. I am just the type of person who likes to push the envelope to find what it truly possible. Many of the best things modern life has to offer us comes from people who weren't afraid to sound crazy for the sake of exploring possibility. I am not easily offended as my personal self-worth is not based on another's opinion so I am free to go where others fear.

In the end, something productive always comes out of my "rantings and ravings". On the Forum I am new and unknown, where I live there are guys who trust what I say enough to put thousands of dollars of their money where I tell them to, and they are happy with the results.

To quench the flames: if anyone reads this post and is irritated, offended, angry, or otherwise negatively affected, you have missed my point!

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Originally posted by batboy:
Perkadelic, half the time I just shake my head in disbelief at some of your rantings and ravings, but this last post you actually sounded like you knew what you were talking about on a couple things...

My thoughts exactly..I take back the crack about 90 day boy wonder.. and apologize for it..

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: ...comes from people who weren't afraid to sound crazy for the sake of exploring possibility. In the end, something productive always comes out of my "rantings and ravings". ....

To each his own way of getting his point across..But think about this fact...There are many 'oldtimers' on this forum who have heard the "talk" too many times..And if you might have started with your last post we could have avoided many of the previous posts..Good luck to your goals..and if you can build a better 'stick' transaxle...we all win..take care...PC

We have very many opinions on this post and since there were few if any flames we certainly must respect each formum members opinion. Perhaps the bottom line here is that with enough money you can get almost any result that you are looking for. Let us not forget that on this formum we have one member with a pro-street front engined Fiero. I'm sure that car is very fast. However, if we are talking about an every day street driven Fiero, it brings up many questions on whether or not it is practical (let alone economical) to attempt building a 10 second 1/4 mile car. Having said that, without passing any judgement; I enjoyed reading the many different viewpoints on the subject. I wonder why Archie hasn't commented. Last I heard he was working on a drag race Fiero.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

The only thing preventing me from going forward with my project(Buick Grandnational 3.8 turbo setup) is the trans. I really wanted a stick, first I bought a Fiero with an Isuzu 5 speed, then reading upon this form I found out that the Getrag is much stronger, so I bought the second Fiero with the Getrag. Now after further research, I am leaning towards a beefed up 4T60 auto for efficiency, I will be running a turbo setup that will put out 450+hp and 550+trq.Some of you on this board will Call me a dreamer but if I can ever solve this Trans issue I think it may break in to 10's. My Grandnational that weights 3800lbs w/o driver went 10.70's at 124mph on a similar motor setup that I am preparing for the Fiero.I think it is great that some of you are looking into this brick wall(trans issue) that preventing us from running hard.

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87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant)
85SE 2.5 w/5speed
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Turbo T
1992 GMC Typhoon
Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy

One cryo will do a transmission for about 200 bucks, just fyi. I dont have any experience with cryoed parts but from what they say, which isnt always the case, it helps significantly with strength and wear. Might be a good option for a 5 speed as long as its not to old and worn and got good parts in it to cryo.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: My thoughts exactly..I take back the crack about 90 day boy wonder.. and apologize for it.. To each his own way of getting his point across..But think about this fact...There are many 'oldtimers' on this forum who have heard the "talk" too many times..And if you might have started with your last post we could have avoided many of the previous posts..Good luck to your goals..and if you can build a better 'stick' transaxle...we all win..take care...PC

No offense taken San Berdue, I am used to being misunderstood, and understand that it is often at least partially my fault because I start from the stars and work my way back to the known reality!!! I'll try to do it the "normal" way next time! Hopefully I can design, build, and help others develop some parts that will help all of the Fiero community have more fun!

More to come...

perk

oh yeah! - "90 day boy wonder" - that was a good one!

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[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 10-10-2002).]

batboy-is that really a 455 in the white fiero? wheels look like its going to the salt flats or something.

Why has no one thought of the easy way yet?

Race prepped 4T65EHD (don't remember the link right now)

for $3000 bought, or $800 in parts that you build.

With a Quaife:
http://www.pfyc.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PFYC&Product_Code=WB3027&Product_Count=40&Category_Code=GPUNDER

and a 3800SC with the SC ripped off and replaced with a turbo. It's really that simple. The L67 Hot rodders have already done most of the work, we just need to apply it to our chassis.

Obviously and '88 cradle will be required. Maybe with the forward trailing arm pivot relocated up a couple of inches.

quote Originally posted by Will: Why has no one thought of the easy way yet? Race prepped 4T65EHD (don't remember the link right now) for $3000 bought, or $800 in parts that you build. With a Quaife: http://www.pfyc.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD& Store_Code=PFYC&Product_Code=WB3027&Product_Count=40&Category_Code=GPUNDER and a 3800SC with the SC ripped off and replaced with a turbo. It's really that simple. The L67 Hot rodders have already done most of the work, we just need to apply it to our chassis. Obviously and '88 cradle will be required. Maybe with the forward trailing arm pivot relocated up a couple of inches.

That tranny I think would stand up to it. It is the one taking the 4100LB bonneville to 12.3, with out failures. I would cost more than 800 in parts to build though. The input shaft alone is 895. I thought about that tranny but the 4T65 stock is only capable of 8ftlbs more than the 4T60. I know that the "Intense" 4T65 that you are talking about can handle alot more but with the lower weight of the Fiero I think it may be a bit overkill. I am building a 4T60-E since my manual couldn't stand up to my 3800SC. I have more pieces outside the case now than there are inside. There are a couple of weak links but the aftermarket builds heavier duty & Hardened parts for it. I am going to manually/electronically shift it so I have full control over gear changes. And my daily driven V6 Fiero will run 11's, with more to come.
ICY

Edit the Quaife Differential is not a good idea for this tranny. It was tried and failed due to the small size required by this application. Grandprixstore.com offers one again but at 2x the price of the other LSD available for this tranny and questionable reliablility I wouldn't buy it.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 10-10-2002).]