Hello, I'm new to the board. I know you guys are probably sick of hearing this but here's my story. I've decided to switch over from modding my Camaro to modding a Fiero. I want to build a 5 speed - Turbo V6 motor (over 3.0L displacement). Right now I am trying to gather all the facts I can about this. Now I am not concerned with as much hp as possible, in fact that is an after thought (I've had plenty with the Iroc). So now I'm looking for opinions on what would be both the easiest and cheapest way to go about achieving my goal. First thing I can think of would be to swap a whole engine. Two that I can think of that came stock with a turbo are the 3.1 turbo grand prix motor, and the 3.8 turbo buick motor around 86-and 87 which came in RWD and FWD versions. Would either of these motors fit and if not what has to be done? Also I can piece meal together a turbo motor but that will be dicussed in another post. This is probably the first of many posts.
After more research I think I've narrowed down the field a bit. Piece-mealing is essential. Basically emulating Dennis' setup is an option since the 3.4L pushrod is the easiest swap from what I hear. Any other ideas on a turbo V6 combo?
Originally posted by FieroGTT: After more research I think I've narrowed down the field a bit. Piece-mealing is essential. Basically emulating Dennis' setup is an option since the 3.4L pushrod is the easiest swap from what I hear. Any other ideas on a turbo V6 combo?
What other options do you want? I'm doing a N* swap. Many guys do a 350 steel, LT-1, or LS-1 swap. The 3.4 is definately the easiest swap. If you go a 3.8, you would be a fool to turbo it, since you can get a 3.8 Supercharged out of a Grand Prix or other GM cars. No matter what, piecing it together is essential. Here, check these out:
If that doesn't keep ya busy for a day, I don't know what will. I was going to go with a 3.4 pushrod and I acquired a Garrett turbo from a 85 Mustang, as posted in Lagruas page, and then a 99 Caddy rollover came along, so I bought it. Ihave the turbo for sale for $100 if ya want it. Either way, check these sites out to make your decision of which one works best for you. just ask if ya have any questions, Ed.
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12:06 AM
Smoooooth GT Member
Posts: 8823 From: Lake Palestine, Texas Registered: Jun 2001
I only want a turbo V6. I'm not interested in any V8's since thats all I've been working with. I'm not interested in getting "easy power" either because If I wanted that I'd just stick with my Camaro. Now speaking of buick motors, I know the 3.8L does not fit tranny since it has the BOP bolt pattern. However, the 3800 (the ones I think you're talking about) does. And since it comes in a Supercharged version that means that it should be able to withstand boost. Are all the 3800 built the same way as the SC'd version? Are they close enough to the older 3.8L motors as to accept some of the turbo manifolds, piping and such from the 3.8's (the ones around 86 and 87 NOT the original carbed ones around 78-80)? Well first off plain and simple. How much more difficult is the 3800 swap (assuming no supercharger will be on top) than the 3.4?
The 3800 SC have had some serious internal fortification(rods, pistons, etc.). As far as a regular 3800 goes, it WOULD need strengthening to handle boost.
You might want to do a search for other threads, there have been a couple on this topic . ------------------ '84 Indy, 190 HP Iron Duke
[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 10-23-2002).]
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12:17 PM
WikedV6 Member
Posts: 271 From: Elburn, IL USA Registered: Jul 2002
Welcome FieroGTT, "Are they close enough to the older 3.8L motors as to accept some of the turbo manifolds, piping and such from the 3.8's (the ones around 86 and 87 NOT the original carbed ones around 78-80)? "
Answer is NO, the 3800 is a totally different design.(it is a great motor) If you use a FWD 3.8 motor out of an 87 Olds or Bonneville, you can use the exhaust and intake manifolds, the heads,TB,bla,bla,bla. You can actually switch the top of the motor from a GN motor to FWD 3.8 block which will bolt right up to the Fiero trans.I don,t know if this is possible but if you get a 3800SC motor and remove the SC/intake and get an intake form a n/a 3800 and turbo charge it. you already have the bottom end build for boost.(pistons,rodsbla,bla,bla)If the intake bolts up you only have to worry about the exhaust manifolds.With the turbo setup the you have unlimited potential.
Good luck
Prasad
------------------ 87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 85SE 2.5 w/5speed 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Turbo T 1992 GMC Typhoon Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy
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02:57 PM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
If you are a guy who likes to be different and likes to go custom than take a look at what WCF has done. He put a DOHC 3.4 v6 from an earlier year Grand Prix GTP in his fiero and turbocharged it. http://www.westcoastfiero.com/Projects/Projects.html
The SC3800 engine is becoming a popular and very common swap for the fiero now. Fiero X just ran a 12.004 with his SC3800 fiero and many others are knocking down the twelve’s too with there SC3800 powered fiero’s.
The Grand National motor has also been done at least once too. As you probably know the Grand Nationals Turbocharged 3.8 has more potential to make more horsepower and torque than a supercharged 3800 can because the turbocharger is more efficient than a supercharger.
I just saw a Grand National run a 10.3 at the track a few months ago. I can’t imagine what it could do in a fiero since the fiero is so much lighter.
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09:57 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
there are kits to put in the gran nat engine. I have a 3.1 (z24) thats been built a little, used fiero cast iron heads and stock OEM intake. That way no mods to wiring harnesses. I have Design One/IRM turbo and when we installed it, put out 275 hp on dyno. If you really want turbo, id tell you way to go is the 3.8 GN. Lots more potential there (intercooled etc). I think my 3.1 is prob about maxed out to be streetable.
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10:05 PM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
I am looking for the same information,I was just lilke you when I started my project. I wanted a stick Fiero with the GN motor setup.I even bought two Fieros, the first one was a 5 speed Isuzu(1985SE), then I learned from this site that the Getrag is stronger so I bought another one with the 5 speed getrag(1987SE).The main reason I wanted a manual trans setup with the GN motor was that the car was going to be a Diablo down the line.After being on this site and realizing how nice these Fieros look, I decided to build a Fiero that is Fast and reliable. This means auto is the way to go especially with the turbo setup. The motor has a red line of 5500RPM.For my Diablo I will use a manual G50 trans out of a Porsche which will hold up to 1000hp if it is build up.The Getrag or Isuzu will not hold up to the power of the GN 3.8 motor and not to mention the clutch. Last weekend I watched my buddies GN put out 503 RWHP and 598lbs/TRQ. the car is not even fully tuned yet and it was with race gas and 22psi. After the car is tuned he will be running around 26-27psi, just imagine what kind of numbers that would put out.Trust me, I have been working on Turbo Buicks as hobby over 12 years, I restore them and sell them. I know what they are capable of and the manual trans got to go if you are going to optimize the power. The only reason I am doing a stick for the Diablo project is because I always wanted a stick behind the GN motor and also have you ever seen a real Diablo that is an auto? If you need to know anything about GN's I will be more than glad to answer your questions. I have GN motors that I can use for the swap, but you need an adoptor/fly wheel,starter bla,bla,bla,. I am still stuck as to what trans to use, maybe a build 4T60 trans or the best option will be a trans out of an old(77-84)3 speed or 4 speed Tornado or a Riv.The problem with that is you have turn the motor setup.I was going to use the 3.8FWD motor that I have out of an 1987 Bonneville, it will bolt right up to the Fiero trans or the 4T60 trans. As for the internal parts, The 1987 FWD3.8 motor has the crank that is very similar to the GN with rolled fillets, the rods are the same as the GN, you can use the same steel caps on the bottom end that they make for the GNs for additional strength. Get TRW forged pistons for about $300.00.As I mentioned earlier, The GN heads and intake will bolt right up. I will be able to use the GN exhaust manifolds also with slight modifications.I am not saying the manual trans will not work but if you want to make the power that motor is capable of then you need a trans that can hold the power.The GN motor makes not only massive HP but also crazy torque.For a turbo application the auto is the best way anyway.In 1989 when Pontiac made their 20th edition TransAm,at first, they put the GN motor mated to a manual trans and then they went back to the auto because the auto ran a full second faster in the quarter mile.The stock GN rear gear ratio is 3.42 so you may need to look in to it also. I belive the TTA used 3.2X gear.The Getrag is 3.61? or something like that.
------------------ 87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 85SE 2.5 w/5speed 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Turbo T 1992 GMC Typhoon Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy
[This message has been edited by WikedV6 (edited 10-24-2002).]
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10:28 AM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
I know the auto is better for more power but as I said before that not a concern of mine. I want a reasonably powerful but fun to drive fiero. I just don't want to get caught up in the whole need for more hp thing like I did with the Camaro. You say the older 3.8 FWD motors will fit the fiero or the newer 3800 FWD motors? If the older 3.8 FWD motors fit, I'm pretty sure Buick made a turbo Riviera that was FWD around then. This could be great
Originally posted by FieroGTT: I know the auto is better for more power but as I said before that not a concern of mine. I want a reasonably powerful but fun to drive fiero. I just don't want to get caught up in the whole need for more hp thing like I did with the Camaro. You say the older 3.8 FWD motors will fit the fiero or the newer 3800 FWD motors? If the older 3.8 FWD motors fit, I'm pretty sure Buick made a turbo Riviera that was FWD around then. This could be great
Ya, but the autos are worse for weight. The tranny that comes with the N* weighs 300lbs, the one that comes with the 3.8 weighs around 200 lbs. The Isuzu or Getgar are around 100 lbs. And remember, the weight is in the rear, where you don't want it.
To me, sticks are more fun, but that's my opinion. I think the decision comes down to what you like, and if you will be drag racing light to light, or road racing. With either heavy automatic your road racing will be hampered.
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12:59 PM
WikedV6 Member
Posts: 271 From: Elburn, IL USA Registered: Jul 2002
Yes the older 3.8FWD motor( try getting it out of an 1987 with a code #3 in the VIN, it has the roller cam setup) will bolt up to the Fiero trans, not the one out of the FWD Rivs like the 82-84. I know they made few turbo FWD Rivs non intercooled turbo's but they have the BOP bolt patern, same as the buick GN motor and will not bolt up directly to the Fiero trans.
------------------ 87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 85SE 2.5 w/5speed 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Turbo T 1992 GMC Typhoon Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy
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01:33 PM
IROC Member
Posts: 1038 From: Salem, Mass USA Registered: Sep 2002
Well I am doing a 2.8 stroked to a 3.4 Turbo charged. I'm hoping to get a Garret T3-4 watercooled. The watercooled version adds a 45% intercooling effect. On top of that I plan on using an Intercooler for even a colder intake charge. Im getting the gen2 Aluminum canted valve heads and installing them with custom JE pistons 8:1 to 8.5:1 compression ratio. A good port and polish job with one sixe bigger manley valves. Im going to use a mild cam from comp cams probally. Then the intake will be sent out to be extrude honed with a larger throttle body being installed. I would like to have Distributorless ignition too. Then eventually i will do a 4 speed automatic swap for the old 3 speed. I'm expecting at least 260 HP, but probally more considering im going to run 10 to 14 pounds of boost.
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03:28 PM
FieroGTT Member
Posts: 489 From: Hard Hittin' New Britain, CT Registered: Oct 2002
Interesting, how easy is it to turbocharge a stock engine (3.4 included since it uses the same top end). And I'm not talking about whether it can handle it or not, just physically hooking up a turbo system.
"The watercooled version adds a 45% intercooling effect"
Are you talking about Liquid cooled intercooler or just the center section of the turbo? If it is the turbo I don't think it will make that much difference(45%) in the intake temprature air charge, may a little. initially it may help circulating coolant, once the car warms up it will be around 190*-200*. I used to run a 60-1 turbonetics turbo w/water cooled center section on my GN and didnot find any gain in quarter mile time and mph.so I always ran it witout it being hooked up.It may save the life of the bearings therefore the turbo it self. I think it is more for preserving the life of the turbo than performance it self. Maybe after all this time they may have a design that is capable of doing that. I am just speaking from my own experience.In my Typhoon I have the liquid cooled IC and it works great, it is only 7"X10" with a separate cooling condenser, it does use the coolent but not the one that circulate around the engine.
------------------ 87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 85SE 2.5 w/5speed 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Turbo T 1992 GMC Typhoon Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy
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09:34 AM
PFF
System Bot
Will Member
Posts: 14273 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Do you mean that the radiator portion of the air/water IC on your Typhoon is only 7"x10"?
How well does that work at stock power levels?
A friend of mine has turboed his MkIII MR2 Spyder and wants to intercool it. We were looking around for an appropriate radiator. So far we'd found a 7"x15" trans cooler and a VW A/C condenser that's about 5x26". What do you think?
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01:20 PM
WikedV6 Member
Posts: 271 From: Elburn, IL USA Registered: Jul 2002
Will, the liquid cooled IC it self is about 2X7x10 and the conderser that cools the liquid which I use is an after market (big one) made by ATR for TY/SY application, it is around 12X20.I run 17-18psi of boost in the Typhoon with 93 octane.Low timming chip, the truck runs 13.20@103mph in sreet trim. In my opinion, the liquid cooled IC is great for track purpose becaue you make your run when every thing is cold and it is very efficient but on a every day car, I like the air to air IC because if you have a liquid cooled IC you still need a codenser(air cooled) to cools the liquid after it soaks up heat from the IC. So why bother use the liquid to cool the air charge then cool the liquid(useing air) to maintain efficiency.It is not practical with all that plumbing,a good pump and additional weight(liquid) even though the liquid IC is a much more smaller unit(IC it self but then you have more plumbing and the condenser) can provide more efficiency than a air to air IC in a short period of time.Remember a liquid cooled IC is only as efficient as how well the liquid is cooled after it soaks up heat.You can try making an liquid IC but remember that if it is restrictive, you are defeating the purpose.(if you have 120degrees at the inlet and after cooling with all the restiction you get 115-125 degrees outlet temperature).If you are going with an liquid cooled setup, I will call Sperco and get it from them, they have few sizes and designed to flow right. I initially thought about liquid IC for my Fiero setup because I was so impressed with the Typhoon but if I need to get air to the condenser(in the rear) why not get enough air back there for an air to air IC and cut all additional plumbing.
Good luck Prasad
------------------ 87SE 2.8 w/5speed(waiting for a 3.8 Buick GN setup trasplant) 85SE 2.5 w/5speed 1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH) 1987 Turbo T 1992 GMC Typhoon Other cars; JaguarXJ6, AMG 500SEL,Astro & Legacy
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03:39 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14273 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
An MR2 is mid engine like a Fiero, and short of extensive and expensive sheet metal work, the liquid IC is the best way to get a fairly high capacity in his car.
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