Damn, I didn't even see that stupid yet oh-so-predictable remark from Dennis coming that time!! Where's the "Ignore Dennis" button on these transmission/clutch threads, Cliff??
Brave guys behind the keyboards. My policy is not to flame as I refuse to lower myself to that level. A few folks here seem to want to talk about people. I choose to talk about Fieros. My post to this thread was about suggesting a logical, possible and practical solution to solving drivetrain failures in a V8 Fiero. It was not judgemental in any way nor did it have any negative message or intent. I take it that you believe that the open exchange of ideas and opinions is wrong?
Dennis, your post does nothing put reiterate your preference for automatic transmissions. Do you really think someone who went to the trouble to build a Northstar with a 5-speed would ever consider swapping it for an automatic?
Even if everything you say about the auto is true, the bottom line is, some people DON'T WANT ONE.
IP: Logged
11:03 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Yeah, I love my SPEC clutches! I have a stage two installed in my 95 Talon TSi AWD now and it works great!
The Stage three clutch in my V8 SBC Fiero engages a little hard but nothin terrible thats for sure. I haven't put a lot of miles on it yet but so far I like it! I spoke with David at SPEC not to long ago and he said that the have a newly designed stage two kevlar disc that would be good for 350 ftlbs of torque, this may be a good alternative to a "puck" clutch for mild to moderate V8s. The Kevlar disck has smooth chatter free engagement but can handle a lot more abuse(heat) than a stock clutch.
BTW, I had the displeasure of running a CF DF clutch in my V8 Fiero for 12,000 HARD(ask anyone who knows me on this Forum, I've probably let have of them beat on it at the Dells) miles. It would slip(350ftlbs+) and couldn't survive more than 12 runs at a drag strip. I eventualy killed it at a drag strip last summer. When I removed the clutch I noticed that all the springs in the clutch disk were visibly worn, loose, and about to fall out! Glad I replaced it when I did, wouldn't want to lose a getrag!
Will, along with QM, Tilton makes some sic dual/triple disc setups. It would be neat to see a Tilton setup in a Fiero!
Jim 87 GT T-TOP V8 SBC 87 GT stocker, soon to be a parts car 95 Talon TSi AWD Winter beater car
IP: Logged
11:35 PM
FieroMaster88 Member
Posts: 7680 From: Mattawan, MI Registered: Nov 2000
I killed a Centerforce DF clutch with my 3.2L also. It only has about 1000 miles on it. I'm going to use the SPEC clutch now. Not even going to try to warranty out the CF clutch. Not worth the time.
------------------ James Essar 88 Coupe 3.2L V6 With NX Nitrous 92 Mitsu. Eclipse GS
IP: Logged
11:53 PM
Jan 23rd, 2003
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Now that I have access to the TOB again, I took some measurements and got down to bidness.
Because of the size of the stock TOB, I'm limited to the 7.25" QM dual disk and the 7.25" Tilton dual (possibly triple) disk carbon-carbon clutch.
The QM unit is a known quantity. The unkown about the Tilton is that its ideal contact diameter to the TOB is 0.140" smaller than the inner contact diameter of the Getrag TOB. I'll talk to a Tilton tech tomorrow to see if this will be a problem.
I'm leaning toward the Tilton right now, if it's possible, for three reasons: It has about 2/3 the moment of inertia of the comparable QM clutch. The Bling! and geek factor of carbon-carbon vs organic The bragging rights of saying "I've got a three disk clutch", which is obviously 50% cooler than a 2 disk clutch.
IP: Logged
12:07 AM
JEDI Member
Posts: 1003 From: Sunrise, Florida Registered: May 2002
Isnt it funny that, as predicted earlyer, Centerforce wouldnt ever replace a clutch again for Will. I cant believe that a company who sells an item to withhold the power of a V8 fiero will refuse to stop selling them to people who ask for a similar item.. Dont you think we should get Centerforce to stop selling these clutches to Fiero owners who ask them for a product of this type?
------------------ 02' 3800SC Poly, Koni, Enkei
IP: Logged
10:53 AM
PFF
System Bot
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I'm not worried about getting it replaced again. I'll have something better ready by the time the new one breaks. I'm not really upset that it broke either. I was more-or-less expecting that.
What concerns me is that Centerforce doesn't seem concerned with making the clutch stronger so that it doesn't break. The tech told me that the rotation stops that keep the hub springs from coil binding had been pounded down from high torque. He seemed to think that this was the way the clutch was supposed to work. He never mentioned putting in stiffer springs to extend the life of the hub and disk. He said that they would send me a specially modified pressure plate with doubled up straps, but didn't say anything about doing that to other pressure plates, although he did say that they only see this type of failure about twice a year.
I think that a reliable unit that could handle V8 torque and be almost as streetable as the factory clutch could be built. I don't think that Centerforce is interested in building one, however.
I will say this for them: They are replacing my clutch with a modified clutch for FREE, even though mine was thoroughly used and WELL outside of its 90 day warranty period.
RE: automatics... AFAIK, FieroX is running in the low, possibly mid 300's at the rear wheels.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-23-2003).]
Originally posted by Jimmy: The Stage three clutch in my V8 SBC Fiero engages a little hard but nothin terrible thats for sure. I haven't put a lot of miles on it yet but so far I like it!
Jimmy, how many miles are you up to so far? When I put mine away for the winter it had 6200 with no clutch or transmission problems and it would be nice to hear of someone racking up more than that.
On what you were saying about hard engagement, mine doesn't engage hard as much as it engages fast. It gives maybe 500-700ms of slip time and then it bites down all the way. I can engage it smoothly with only about 1200rpms and I haven't stalled it very often at all. As far as I'm concerned it works just as advertised.
Did you have to do the clutch pedal adjustment to get yours to work? I'm wondering if that is just an '88 issue.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: Autos are better all around transmissions for reliability , drag racing ect... JM
Don't know about that Slammed, I haven't heard of an auto holding up in a 400hp Fiero yet!!!
[/QUOTE]
Pat Ciarccia of Mt. Pocono PA. campaigned a nitrous fed small block drag race Fiero with a JPT modified TH-125H with over 700 HP for four years. This Fiero is on record as having gone mid 10's in the 1/4 mile and having withstood four drag seasons with no failures. This car used to be featured on V8 Archies website and may still be there under customer cars. THis is not opinion but fact. Give Pat at C&C automotive a call and ask him.
Pat Ciarccia of Mt. Pocono PA. campaigned a nitrous fed small block drag race Fiero with a JPT modified TH-125H with over 700 HP for four years.
Yep, and I've read here on the Forum that 3 other people have run JPT modified TH-125-H auto's with less than 450hp that had early failures. Seems to me that the high horse/torque V8's have a better track record percentage wise running the Getrag V/S any auto out there right now. This may change in time, but I haven't seen any indications of it yet.
Secondly this thread is about clutches/manual transmissions, and people who prefer to be in complete control of the car. There are things you can do with a manual trans that aren't possible with the automatic, and that's the main reason most of use have chose the manual instead of going with a hybred auto. I also own an '87 GT with a pumped '88 2.8 and hybred TH125, no comparison in driving enjoyment compared to the manual. That and the fact that the Manual is just more fun for spirited driving!!! My last post with reference to auto trans.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 01-23-2003).]
IP: Logged
05:47 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Pat Ciarccia of Mt. Pocono PA. campaigned a nitrous fed small block drag race Fiero with a JPT modified TH-125H with over 700 HP for four years. This Fiero is on record as having gone mid 10's in the 1/4 mile and having withstood four drag seasons with no failures. This car used to be featured on V8 Archies website and may still be there under customer cars. THis is not opinion but fact. Give Pat at C&C automotive a call and ask him.
HE may have lucked out, but how many more JPT transmissions have we heard of that can't handle much milder small blocks?
If I could be sure about getting that kind of durability for the TH125 in my AWD Pontiac 6000, I'd ship it to him in a second.
So should I call C&C or JPT about having my AWD transmission built?
Dennis, if you KNOW who can build my TH125 and be SURE to handle 600+ HP at the crank, please PM me. I want to swap a 3800 turbo into my P6K AWD, but the driveline is the big question mark right now.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-23-2003).]
Jimmy, how many miles are you up to so far? When I put mine away for the winter it had 6200 with no clutch or transmission problems and it would be nice to hear of someone racking up more than that.
Dave unfortunately I put my Fiero away a little early this year. I had only put a few hundred miles on the clutch, barely broken in.
quote
On what you were saying about hard engagement, mine doesn't engage hard as much as it engages fast. It gives maybe 500-700ms of slip time and then it bites down all the way. I can engage it smoothly with only about 1200rpms and I haven't stalled it very often at all. As far as I'm concerned it works just as advertised.
I like how you described it better. It engages quick! I have no problems at all with this clutch, it did however take me a little getting used to when I tried to back up a hill in reverse! LOL Lets just say it likes to chatter if you try to slip it too much.
quote
Did you have to do the clutch pedal adjustment to get yours to work? I'm wondering if that is just an '88 issue.
Dave
I didn't have any issues with installing it. I read what Archie posted about your swap but I didn't run in to that problem.
Overall I think the SPEC is very decent for the $$$! Now it just needs to warm up around here so I can take it out of storage.
Originally posted by blakeinspace: Don't you mean it 33% cooler that a 2 disk clutch? lol
50% of 2 is 1, but 33% of 2 is 0.66... somebody needs to check their math!!
Well, it looks like my car was the first one out of the gates with a SPEC and remains the only one with any significant mileage. I'd hoped that there were more but I guess wintertime (and the fact that the only other two are even further north) put a cap on that. So, as soon as spring gets here I guess I'll hafta just go drive it some more. Daytona is two months away and will put a couple thousand more on it, that's a good start.
It's interesting that the overtravel problem only occurred on my car so far. I wonder if there was a design change in the clutch pressure plate between the time of your purchase and mine? It appears to be a LUK pressure plate assy.
50% of 2 is 1, but 33% of 2 is 0.66... somebody needs to check their math!!
Well, it looks like my car was the first one out of the gates with a SPEC and remains the only one with any significant mileage. I'd hoped that there were more but I guess wintertime (and the fact that the only other two are even further north) put a cap on that. So, as soon as spring gets here I guess I'll hafta just go drive it some more. Daytona is two months away and will put a couple thousand more on it, that's a good start.
It's interesting that the overtravel problem only occurred on my car so far. I wonder if there was a design change in the clutch pressure plate between the time of your purchase and mine? It appears to be a LUK pressure plate assy.
Dave
What stage clutch did you end up getting? I don't think i have the time to go through the clutch thread!
If I was after reliability, I would buy a Toyota Camry and drive it carefully. I'm not that way, I want a 5-speed race car!!! I want to go up through the gears, and then bcak down as I set up for the corner. I realize that the 5-speed tranny set up is not as reliable as a 4T80E (for which I just sold), that's why I have 4 Isuzus and 1 Getrag with a bunch of cables and brakets too. I figure I'll be into it about once a year. The up-side is that it's easier to initially install and forever easier to work on than an auto, but you'll do it more often. There is no, "best" application, and guys like JStricker should be most aware of this. Aviation guys are very aware of weight and how it relates to performance. But if you're not going to push a car to tire adhesion, then it doesn't matter and the trade-off is worth it. Either way, it's all about a trade-off; HP, torque, weight, traction, drag, lift, maneuverability, stopping, etc, etc....
So when people use the term, "best" in a general sense, I realize they are just pushing their opinion.
IP: Logged
09:07 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
And on the automatics, its all about the TV cable and adjustment. I built 3 125C's and not one lived more then a day behind my 3.4 DOHC, one of them served 8 months of flawless service behind my duke in the INDY before making it onto the DOHC. Thats what happens when the TV cable doesn't corespond with the power input.
Any way, manuals are SO MUCH MORE FUN, end of story. I converted all my Fiero's to manuals and my 350+ horspower (I hope it performs like I expect) 3.4 DOHC will need a good clutch. Spec Stage 3 sounds good to me.
Just one question, Doesn't it take a heck of alot more then 300-350 horses to run an 11.63 in a 2900 Lb. car? curious.
Excuse me while I show off alittle, can't pass up a good plug
[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 01-23-2003).]
IP: Logged
11:23 PM
Jan 24th, 2003
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
I agree with you Will, Centerforce seems to care less about building a clutch that can stand up to the abuse, although they could if they cared.
You were MUCH more fortunate than I; my dual friction clutch slipped really bad once in the 8k or so it was in there with the 3.4, by no means a powerhouse. I was within the 90 days, and there were no signs of anything I did wrong, so they attributed it to my driving style and were *gracious enough* to offer me the latest Archie clutch for cost. So, I've got an Archie clutch that's worth about 450 bucks now (if you factor shipping, two clutches, and remachining the flywheel the second time). Needless to say, that was the last I'll ever deal with Centerforce. If I have a problem with this one, it's just going in the dumpster...I wasted too much of my time and money last time.
If I could do it all again, I'd go with the SPEC clutch or the standard LUK, as they're the only ones that I haven't heard problems about.
While we're on the subject of the double/triple plate clutches, does anybody know where to source hydraulic throwout bearings besides Quartermaster and Tilton?
Bryce 88 GT
IP: Logged
01:53 AM
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
So, should I stay away from the Centerforce unit? Should I just shuck out the money for the Quartermaster up front and not take the chance horking a clutch?
IP: Logged
03:06 AM
FieroLT1 Member
Posts: 320 From: MilwauKee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Bushroot: I think its the general concencus in the fiero community to stay away from the centerforce product line, in any case the centerforce product is a LUK clutch product, which napa can sell you for much less and and garantee you a replacment anytime "lifetime". So its up to you, but generally a nontraditional clutch style "multi friction disc" will hold up to the power and abuse better than the traditional "single disc, one side" style which centerforce will sell you.
------------------ 02' 3800SC Poly, Koni, Enkei
IP: Logged
09:18 AM
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
Thanks...Am I to assume that the Isuzu 5-speed and the Getrag use the same clutch? The reason I ask is because I've seen in a couple places a generic clutch between both the 4cyl and the 6. If they can indeed use the same clutch, again assuming, the newer Cavaliers use an Isuzu right? See where I'm going with this. The rice boy scene has brought high performance clutches to the Cavalier...drag clutches even (heaven knows why you'd want to try to drag a FWD but that's beside the point). Wouldn't this be a viable option?
IP: Logged
06:28 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Both transmissions use the same clutch. They use different throw out bearings, however.
I talked to a Tilton tech today. The Getrag TOB will work with the Tilton 2 disk 7.25" clutch, but the pedal effort will increase in the last half of the release throw.
Tilton can put the Getrag's 25 mm x 14 spline in the hub, and there's plenty of room for the 2 disk. This will be my next big project.
IP: Logged
07:13 PM
PFF
System Bot
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
Nice...I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm going to need for the swap. I don't want to put prices on things though. I'm sure that would discourage me...lol
IP: Logged
12:19 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Will, have you considered using a generic hydraulic throw out bearing? I know Tilton and Quartermaster both have a few designs. I saw a thread where somebody was working on mounting one of these into the Getrag, I believe it was for a N* project, but I can't find the thread now.
Not only would this get rid of the "increasing load" of the stock setup, but you'd never have to worry about replacing the crappy Fiero hydraulics/clutch arm bushings again.
Bryce 88 GT
IP: Logged
12:21 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by Nashco: Not only would this get rid of the "increasing load" of the stock setup, but you'd never have to worry about replacing the crappy Fiero hydraulics/clutch arm bushings again.
Bryce 88 GT
Clutch pedal effort with the QM unit is only slightly above stock clutch (not objectional at all). Have never had a problem with my crappy Fiero hydralics/clutch arm bushings.
IP: Logged
12:31 AM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
Should I just shuck out the money for the Quartermaster up front and not take the chance horking a clutch?
Just keep in mind that if you are going to go with the Quarter Master you are not buying a clutch designed for the street, nor is this clutch going to let you get away with things a street clutch would.
Tina
IP: Logged
12:36 AM
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
On/Off eh? I E-mailed a company that sells SPEC clutches. Hopefully, the model they sell for the Cavalier with an Isuzu will work. Pretty impressive numbers. I was thinking about using the stage 3 which is supposed to handle 360 lb-ft. Or, I could get ballzy and try the stage 4...might not be very streetable though. http://www.nipponpower.com/drivetrain/clutch/spec_chevy.html
IP: Logged
01:46 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Just keep in mind that if you are going to go with the Quarter Master you are not buying a clutch designed for the street, nor is this clutch going to let you get away with things a street clutch would.
Tina
Exactly right!!! But you've got to love the precision feel!
I spoke with David at SPEC not to long ago and he said that the have a newly designed stage two kevlar disc that would be good for 350 ftlbs of torque, this may be a good alternative to a "puck" clutch for mild to moderate V8s. The Kevlar disck has smooth chatter free engagement but can handle a lot more abuse(heat) than a stock clutch.
