I have been looking aroundfor a wile, always looking to buid somthing out of the ordanary. Then after i was reading in a mag, i came across information on the caddy 500. (8.2L) Then i thougt to myself, i dont know anyone with a caddy powered sports car. So i thought about the new information, and relizedthat the caddy 500 was out of a front wheel drive car? if so, i am thinking that it might not be the most impossible thing in the word to do a swap into a 88 fiero gt. i think the torque to weight ratio would be amazing!! I dont know about mounting it longitudinal or sidways. Or mounting up to the trans-axel, or transmision. if anyone has any info on the subject, send it on. Any imput would be greatly appreatied.

The caddy 502 is a RWD motor.

Oh, and it's REALLY big. And REALLY heavy. And it doesn't readily bolt to anything!

the caddy 500 is only 60lbs heaver than a 350, (596lbs) add an allumium edellbrock intake and nock off 20 lbs!! and there frontwheel drive. i wa playin in them yesterday at the j-yard. the one i am looking to pull is out of a 1970. stock these engines are 400 hp, and 500 foot lbs of torque!

The only was to mount a caddy 500 without a frame stretch and a lot of custom work is with a Tornado transaxle, sfaik.

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1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed click for more pics
1986 GT 5 speed
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

My bad, I mean Longitudinal engine. There is no transaxle in the world that you could sucessfully mount to it, being so wide. You'd need to go with a Toronado/Caddy tranny (basically a t-350 welded to a rear diff) to do it.

The t425 is an absolute MONSTER of a transmission. That's where most of the weight goes. That 502 will tear ANY transaxle you foolishly tried to bolt it to into small curly spirals.

190hp and what, 600ft-lbs at idle?

60lbs heavier than an SBC is 120lbs heavier than the v6, plus the additional 200lbs or so of the transaxle. ~300lbs on the rear is NOT going to be fun. Not to mention that the layout of the transmission is going to mess with the weight balance even more.

Now, factor in the fact that you would need some REALLY special cooling. the mother won't be able to run for more than a few minutes before overheating in the back of that motor.

Bottom line, if you DO do it, it will require sick amounts of modification. No way will it be even CLOSE to streetable.

It would be pretty sick-fast, though.

For the work/time/money, shoe-horn an SBC350, slap a weiand on the top, and give it 14lbs/minute of Laffy-Gass.

don't throw out the idea so quickly. remember hugh had a 350 set up with a toronado type drive train. i know he said it changed the character of the car a lot (more a strait liner than a handler), but i don't remember him saying anything about cooling problems. there was also the guy that had the buick or pontiac 455 engine in the same configuration. he seemed pretty happy with his too.

i would say realise it's not going to be the same type of car before you start working on it. try to find some of the people who've done that swap (seems like there were a few) to try and get a better idea of if it's what you want to do.

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Phil T.

start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can. arthur ashe

i may be changed by what happens to me,
but i refuse to be reduced by it. maya angelou

The Caddy engine is a 500 cubic inch, not 502 which is a Chevy. It was used in FWD and RWD applications, the Eldorado being the only FWD application for this engine from 1966 to 1977 i think. It was only mated to a TH425 which is a TH400 based tranny (3 speed). There were 2 different differentials bolted to this tranny, one was 2.73:1 and the other 3.23:1. This tranny was also used in olds toronados of the same years and also found use on some motor homes. The problems are that this tranny while bulletproof, is also heavy and alot of the weight of the engine and tranny combo ends up behind the rear wheels. Unless you can turn engine and tranny around the other way, getting the diff to rotate the other direction. this places much of the weight ahead of the rear wheels.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 01-27-2003).]

wait a sec...

I have a 425 cu in 79 caddy. The engne is bolted to a TH400. I had to swap the tranny with a later TH400 that was backing a 350 caddy.

same bolt pattern as a 350 , ie archies kit in theroy should work.

although I can tell you even my low power weezy 425 will bark the tires shifting into 2nd gear @ 60mph (it has 2.29 gears) and the tranny has never been touhed. I think this kind of TQ would snap any fiero tranny like a twig.

I don't think I would ever go longitudinal unless it included a 911 tranny. The Toro tranny is a pig.

I have seen a few C5 trannies connected directly to the motor that make a nice mid engine setup , but get out your pocket book!

JM

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: wait a sec... I have a 425 cu in 79 caddy. The engne is bolted to a TH400. I had to swap the tranny with a later TH400 that was backing a 350 caddy. same bolt pattern as a 350 , ie archies kit in theroy should work. JM

Be careful, caddy's use BOP trannys (buick, olds pontiac), archies kit has an adapter for chevy which is different.

Hmmm... here's a longitudal Big-Block Caddy powered Indy. Owned & Built by a guy here in Minnesota! I don't know much about it other than seeing it regularly during summer cruised at/near Porkey's in St.Paul.

Just thought I'd share

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Looking for Fiero posters?

The Caddy/Toranado TH425 trans engine combo is way too big and heavy to go in a Fiero. A decent Chevy 350 will have it for lunch. Compared to the Chevy the Olds/Caddy engine is an overweight weakling. I tried to race Olds 350s against 350 Chevys and they could not compete. If I remember the Olds is 70lbs heavier than the Chevy. The bolt pattern on the th 425 trans is the same as the old Pontiac/Buick/Olds V8s. The later model toronados (smaller) will bolt up to a small block Chevy. It's a 3 speed. I don't think any of them would work well. Of course anything's possible if you want to put enough time and $ into it.

I think it's a great idea. Those caddy motors are indestructable and can be built to make lots of power. It might be a little heavier but it would still be lighter than a Mustang or Camaro. If you rotated the diff. and used some aluminum you should be all set.
Can't wait to see it.
Steve

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larryemory:

The Caddy/Toranado TH425 trans engine combo is way too big and heavy to go in a Fiero. A decent Chevy 350 will have it for lunch. Compared to the Chevy the Olds/Caddy engine is an overweight weakling. I tried to race Olds 350s against 350 Chevys and they could not compete. If I remember the Olds is 70lbs heavier than the Chevy. The bolt pattern on the th 425 trans is the same as the old Pontiac/Buick/Olds V8s.QUOTE]

Olds and Caddy engines are VERY different beasts.

Caddy 500 resources:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/ www.500cid.com

There are a bunch of others. Just follow the webring links at MTS.

The 500 is in between big and small block Chevies in weight. It has a high nickel block and is EXTREMELY durable and long wearing. One of MTS's engines made 5-6 hundred HP and went over 1200 quarter mile passes without even having the valve covers off.

i was going to post information on the caddy and olds motors, having owned and repaired many of them, but Will beat me to it------with a better answer. rock on!

Well before I go out and purchase the motor, what possible way is there to even hook up the 500 motor and trans? What I really need is to think of a plan on how it might even work. i was thinking that I might be able to take the entire front end, and fabricate mounts, and what not to maybe shoe-horn it in. Then once I sea just how everything worked, i could make something more permiant. I haven’t really decided on the caddy motor yet, but one of the biggest reasons was the stock power that it had, it was a brutal motor for cheep. Where as in a sbc I would have to dump in much more money into it to get even close power. But the other thing I’m not sure about is, if i do go with a sbc, I don’t want to spend $2500 on any kit! Is there anyway around the kit? I can do all the custom motor mounts, and that sort, but as for the flywheel, and bell-housing adaptor, I have no clue. is there anywhere where i can buy the individual parts like the flywheel, or does anyone know where I might be able to obtain the parts from?
I have wanted to do a v-8 powered fiero for the longest time, and the thought of a big block fiero, well that grabs my attention!!! but it sounds like the car would be very un-drivable with a big block in it. But as it sounds, this might not be the best coarse of action. One more reason I like the fiero, is that I like the looks of rice cars, but I have always been a v-8 fan, and I would never do that to a 4-cylinder car, its agenst my religion! Or something likes that. Anyhow, I could get the looks with this car, and still have the rumble of a v-8. And the other reason for doing this is my friend has a 300zx, twin turbo, and he loves it. It spanks my camaro big time, and instead of doing all this work to my daily driver, I will do it to a second car. So I have to be up there in performance to his 320 hp 300zx!!! I can’t take it any longer!! Plus this can be an education experience too. So all of these reason piled up and, now its time to do something about it. Come on people lets build a plan!

Well, you're getting excellent info here to help you. I'll add my two pence too

It all depends on what you're after. If your primary motivation is a mean intimidating car that will try to rip the asphalt off the ground and lay down impressive straight-line acceleration numbers the big Caddy may just be for you! If you want a car that does all things (go, turn, stop) well then you probably won't be happy with it. For more info try Ari's kit car forum. The Caddy/Olds transaxle with various motors is popular with Lambo kit builders. And http://www.fieroaddiction.com/index2.html" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.fieroaddiction.com/index2.html for lot of info on the swap.

If it turns out that the monster is not for you and you want to do an SBC try Street Dreams or KF Group. They'll both sell you individual components, if you have the skills and resources to do your own design and fabrication.

perk

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phitown.com

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 01-28-2003).]

Like others have said the Caddy engine is right up there with indistructable, you would have a hard time even trying to hurt that engine.
Now the SBC is a wonderful engine for the simple fact that you would have to deemed medicaly dead not to get any HP out of it even on a budget, there are just to many resources out there for parts being competative.
And always remember, you could just install the engine now, then modify later to how you see fit, that is a much more budget friendy answer to doing such a project and I have heard many others do this approach for that reason.

as i am in the process of building a fiero with this type of setup i thought i would share a few things that i have learned:

the oldsmobile toronado engine trans seem to be a better investment. there is a bigger and cheaper aftermarket for the olds as compared to the cadillac.
if you can find a 1966-1967 tornado this is the best combo i have found. it came with a 425 cubic inch with a steel forged crank, a 425 pitch switch transmission and 3.21 final drive. the pitch switch can be triggered by the throtle or buy a flip hand switch. this feature allows the converter to stall about 2500 rpms at any time the switch is turned on. most 425 trans came with the 3.07 final drive in the old the cadillac eldorados came with 2.73. this is one of the major down falls to this transmission. but you can get a new chain and gear set to make the 3.07 into 3.50 or the 3.21 into a 3.66, the bad news is that it cost about a $1000.00 for the gear set up. due to the 425 trans, an axle go's through a opening in the oil pan, so a toronado or eldorado oil pan must be used unless you have a custom oil pan made.
going with the big olds engine you can go with aluminum heads and intake as with the cadillac you can only go with the aluminum intake. down side to the 425 engine is the cam bank angle that was produced in the 1966-1967s was at a 45 degree angle instead of the normal 39 degree angle. this makes it harder to get a aftermarket cam but they are out there. the other main consideration is exhaust. if you plan to use the stock exhaust manifolds is easy but headers present a few small problems. backup!!! i forgot to mention that in order for this set up to be the most beneficial and the least amount of custom work the engine and trans must be put in a reversed rotation(pulley to the back). this puts as near as my measurements can tell, 88 pounds more to the front of the car. less a$$ heave the better, plus with the massive amount of torque with this set up you will need the extra weight. the gear carrier in the final drive must be rotated or fliped, but it is an easy task. ok back to the headers, unless there is some out there i havnt seen yet, there is no direct fit headers for this type of conversion for the olds, sanderson makes some for the big caddys that "look" like they may work. i have found some olds speed boat headers that may work with a little work but more than likly a custom set is in the future.
the cooling issue is yet to be delt with. from what i have found out it shouldnt be a big concern. i have a 5 core in my sbc v8 fiero that works great, worst case- spend $350.00 on custom radiator.
the weight issue, i have spent a lot of time and talked many people on this. my engine/trans set up weights about 170 pounds more than my sbc v8 engine/trans. most of all of it is coming from the trans and final drive. but to finally have a bullet proof tranny it worth it to me. with the engine/trans in the reversed position, as near as my measurments can tell i am puting 88 pounds more toward the front of the car by going in the reversed position. i will never win any auto-x with this car, nor with my sbc fiero as well. this car is a drag car and only a drag car, it will be street legal but i am not wanting a car that turns on a dime or stops on a penny. the whole project should cost me less than $5000.00 including the car.
setup is:
84 fiero coupe
455 olds destroked with a 425 steel crank
edelbrock aluminum heads,intake, cam.
425 trans with the 3.21 final with the power drive gears to a final of 3.66
est. 540 hp 610 fpt

WOW cardealer !!! you seem to have the sweet set-up !! But I must leave ya with this....

Run,run as fast as you can, YOU can't catch me I am the Revinman !!! hee hee

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quote Originally posted by cardealer: i forgot to mention that in order for this set up to be the most beneficial and the least amount of custom work the engine and trans must be put in a reversed rotation(pulley to the back). this puts as near as my measurements can tell, 88 pounds more to the front of the car. less a$$ heave the better, plus with the massive amount of torque with this set up you will need the extra weight. the gear carrier in the final drive must be rotated or fliped, but it is an easy task.

Cardealer, have you been able to flip the diff gears? I have done it on the conversion I am working on but it wasn't an easy task. The construction of the diff gears and housing does not allow one to just flip the gears, the diff case is not big enough to do this. My next thought was to get a set of custom gears made which had the helix machined in the opposite direction but the cheapest estimate i could get for this job was $3000, nearly my entire budget. Finally I came up with a way to rotate the entire housing 180 degrees by making an adapter plate to mate between the trans and diff but there is way more to it than that. Internal mods need to be done to the side gears in the diff to hold the eldo/toro axle stubs. Also, rotating the diff case moves the outboard axle stub further out so in effect the engine is more offset to the driver's side of the car. I am using a sbc and it barely fits. I seriously doubt an Olds would fit. there is very little clearence between the valve cover and the strut tower. Also, some work has to be done to the firewall of the car, the cross member that goes from side to side just above the back of the gas tank needs to be cut and redone to allow the tranny to move far enough foward to place the axle stubs inline with the hubs. Currently I am in the process of fabricating the mount for the back of the tranny. Going back to the flipped diff, i have heard many stories of how this can be done but I have never seen another one done like mine. Even Held motorsports who makes that cradle designed to hold a th425 with a flipped diff couldnt help me out.

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: Cardealer, have you been able to flip the diff gears? I have done it on the conversion I am working on but it wasn't an easy task. The construction of the diff gears and housing does not allow one to just flip the gears, the diff case is not big enough to do this. My next thought was to get a set of custom gears made which had the helix machined in the opposite direction but the cheapest estimate i could get for this job was $3000, nearly my entire budget. Finally I came up with a way to rotate the entire housing 180 degrees by making an adapter plate to mate between the trans and diff but there is way more to it than that. Internal mods need to be done to the side gears in the diff to hold the eldo/toro axle stubs. Also, rotating the diff case moves the outboard axle stub further out so in effect the engine is more offset to the driver's side of the car. I am using a sbc and it barely fits. I seriously doubt an Olds would fit. there is very little clearence between the valve cover and the strut tower. Also, some work has to be done to the firewall of the car, the cross member that goes from side to side just above the back of the gas tank needs to be cut and redone to allow the tranny to move far enough foward to place the axle stubs inline with the hubs. Currently I am in the process of fabricating the mount for the back of the tranny. Going back to the flipped diff, i have heard many stories of how this can be done but I have never seen another one done like mine. Even Held motorsports who makes that cradle designed to hold a th425 with a flipped diff couldnt help me out.

you must be useing the 3.07 or 2.73 final drive. those are (forgive spelling) hypro gear were as the 3.21 final drive is planatary gears. the 3.21 hosusing will allow you to flip the gears. the gears do not swap from housing to housing i think the 3.07 diff case has like(?) 10 bolts were as the 3.21 has (?) 8 bolts. the axle (3.21) that go's under the motor must be used. but the carrier in the 3.21 can be fliped by removing 4 bolts, removing the axles,ect. i cant picture it right now... but i would think that by flipping the whole diff with an adapter plate, would be a nightmare. good luck on finding the 3.21 setup they are very expensive.

forgot- depending on what axles you use depends as were the engine trans sits(side to side) there is just enough room to sit the 455 block between the strut towers but the axles must be cut and resplined. by the way, alot of this info is what been told and measured myself. i have now just located the stuff to start this project. i have been researching this for a while to see if it will work. if your building adapter plates for the final drive.... man your waaayyy ahead of me. lets keep each other posted on progress!

Cardealer, do you mean to say that the 3.23:1 gear set is not a typical ring and pinion gear set? I have done alot of reasearch on these diffs and have not come across any that were not hypoidal ring and pinion. Do you have a pic of the planetary set you described and is it from a 66 or 67 model year?
Thanks ad yes we should keep each other posted on progress.

the 3.21 (8-bolt) only came in the 1966 & 1967 oldsmoblie toronado. after that gm went to the 10 bolt- 2.73, 3.07 in the th425 as well as deleted the pitch switch trans. the 1966-1967 th425 w/ pitch switch and the 3.21 final drive, i was told is worth about $5000.00. the 3.21 final drive unit is a very coveted item through the gmc motorhome community. but like i said most of the info i have got has been from "informed" parties - what ever that is good for !

Cardealer,
if you PM me with your email i will send you a couple of pics of where I am currently. I'd also like to see pics of that planetary diff. Tony

Cardealer- Long time no talk. revin told me you took on my old project... Some of the guys that took the Texas Hill Country Run last winter here in Texas would remember my ugly white 1975 Caddy El Dorado. FWD with a 500ci that I was swapping into an 87 coupe. HAD (sorry I lost all my papers in some rough times) the dimensions for both the 500 w/tranny and the engine compartment minus the rear trunk space of the fiero. You will need a strut tie bar and need to modify your decklid as cleareance doesnt allow stock decklid. tranny was the 425 and yes I did reverse the gears and drove the caddy backwards as a gag for a while. only prob I had was the 75 500ci was rated at 500hp/500ftq so I had to figure how to keep the front end down during heavy acceleration. the manifolds need to changed as you cant reverse them, but they do fit with the heads between the strut towers. and you'll need a oil filter relocation kit because its in easy access area to debris. an oil cooler would prob help alot to. mine was running warm often.

Sorry not much help with this... but I was to the point of cutting the rear trunk to bits and completeing the swap when I through a piston in the 500ci while driving way too fast. other wise my NSAN1T project woulda been a 500ci instead of a 3.4 dohc

josh

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[This message has been edited by RedHaze86SD4 (edited 01-28-2003).]

how about mounting it longitudinally, but backwards? Then use one of those 180 degree gear boxes like the use in boats and such. Bolt in a ford 9 inch rear and have fun.

PS, send us pics of the wheelies!!

my email is tonypaul@fastestcar.com

hey josh, it has been a while. revin told me that he was in touch with recently, i hope all is much better with you. as far as this project, i may get out of it. i received 4 differant emails today from people doing the same type of swap and two more interested in it. maybe too mainstream for me now. i have about 3 projects in mind i would like to build but who knows. keep us posted on how your doing.

did you have to do extensive engine cradle mods? and also how did you stuff it in there?

was just curious but why would one need to flip the gears around?

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--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero
Fiero mods almost done...i know that because im running out of possesions to sell for money

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: was just curious but why would one need to flip the gears around?

hmmm 145+mph backwards... no thanks hahah

Actually I cheated as to the engine cradle.. I was getting ready to cut the two cradles and splice them together with 4 reinforcement bars. two in front two in back for support. That way I kept the transmisson mounts the same. thats also why, minus the fan, the pullys were going to be about an inch and a half fron the decklid latch mechanism.. I think you could squeeze it farther forward than that, but was trying. Didnt want to find out if the passenger area got hot from the big ole motor back there or not... I think thats a killer swap, but just remember, with those torque numbers.. I wouldnt try street driving unless you drive better than my grandmother... My thinking is you try accelerating out of a curve and you might not get your wish... but have fun with the wheelies at the track and post pics

oh and wheelie bars are highly recomended hah

Josh

PS) cardealer- thanks and keep up to date on your projects.. I just got my 87 back so now my in house projects are; an Cadero Indy with a 4spd auto, an 84 SC LS1, Finishing the 87 NSAN1T project with either your old 2.8L or a newer 3.4 dohc, a 78 F150 308 drag motor swap and last but not least.. the weirdest of my collection. A 91 4 door Grand Am on a 4WD GMC Sonoma frame with a 357 rat motor and a 6spd tranny...

I swear I'm not insane... just a Texas Redneck hahah

quote Originally posted by montesa311: did you have to do extensive engine cradle mods? and also how did you stuff it in there?

WHY DON'T YOU LET US PUT YOUR BALLS IN A VICE AND GET IT OVER WITH???!!!! YOU'RE GONNA WISH WE DID.......LOL!

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd
0-60 in 6.8 seconds!

quote Originally posted by GTDude: WHY DON'T YOU LET US PUT YOUR BALLS IN A VICE AND GET IT OVER WITH???!!!! YOU'RE GONNA WISH WE DID.......LOL! Phil

Phil...Leave their balls alone !!

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quote Originally posted by RedHaze86SD4: A 91 4 door Grand Am on a 4WD GMC Sonoma frame with a 357 rat motor and a 6spd tranny...

What's a 357 rat? That's a lot of destroke.

When I said the olds/caddy combo was too big and heavy I was referring to a street or road race car. I stand by that statement. I've built several of these monsters in the past. They're like having a big swartz. They only thing they're good for is to brag about. If you really want to get outrageous go to a 540 caddy engine. If I'm not mistaken PAW has a 600 ci engine available. Or maybe an allison aircraft engine. If I remember that's about 1,500 ci. Got $100,000.00 to spend: I could really get carried away. Anyway good luck.

a 357 Rat motor- just a bored and stroker kit for a 350...

RedHaze86SD4--- tell me if im rong, but isn't a rat a big block?? And a small block is a mighty mouse??
Anyhow, i dont think i would want my nutts in a vice, i think i will pass on the offer. on another note, about what are the figures for making the fiero stand on end, that might be kinda cool to have one that does, but it sounds like doing a small block will be wayyyyyyyyy easier. What kinda power would i have to make to have one do it?

Yeah, the Rat's a big block.

bump...trying to keep this thread alive...

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 04-11-2003).]