well, you've certainly been helpful to me. I been reading about 3800 SC swaps but never realized that the oil pan had to be notched. Is this because the WCF mounts sit the engine lower in the cradle? Nice beads on your pan. You had the right person do the work.
Robert, you're doing an outstanding job on this swap. I hope you get years of enjoyment from it.
[This message has been edited by westtexas (edited 03-02-2003).]
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06:23 AM
breakneck88 Member
Posts: 265 From: Chambersburg P.A. Registered: Feb 2003
Nice!!!!!!!! even though i am a liitle confused about your oil pan notching descriptions, but i will figure it out when i get to it!!! Definetly sweet work!
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09:10 AM
skitime Member
Posts: 5765 From: Akron, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2000
RBeaubien - excellent work. You obviously put a lot if planning and designing into your setup. How are you holding the engine against the twist of the torque?
WestTexas - You do not have to notch your oil pan. I would allow bigger exhaust pipe to pass through the area with it notched. I have 2 1/2 pipe without it being notched.
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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 Supercharged White 88 GT Stock Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 03-02-2003).]
the pic below shows a different type of rear toe link with a heim joint. Is this homemade or are they available ? I'm sure I could make one but why reinvent the wheel
------------------ 84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT L35 block Syclone Intake and ECM T04B H3 Turbo http://www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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11:09 AM
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
RBeaubien - excellent work. You obviously put a lot if planning and designing into your setup. How are you holding the engine against the twist of the torque?
Front Torque Mount I beefed up the front crossmember on the cradle to take the torque
quote
WestTexas - You do not have to notch your oil pan. I would allow bigger exhaust pipe to pass through the area with it notched. I have 2 1/2 pipe without it being notched.
Really? Please send me a pic of a 3800 with a cast aluminum oil pan with the exhaust routed by it. My measurements indicated there was about 1" of space between the pan and the stock fiero right engine mount.
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- Robert Beaubien - 87 GT 5-speed (undergoing 3800 Series II SC swap) - www.fieroexcitement.com - Rate me if I've been helpful! :) -
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11:12 AM
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
the pic below shows a different type of rear toe link with a heim joint. Is this homemade or are they available ? I'm sure I could make one but why reinvent the wheel.
just thought of something else... FWIW I'm a little concerned about the firewall side motormount atttached to the origonal cross member. Your setup will impart a lot of torsional stress (twist)and I'm pretty sure I've twisted one of those by hand with a pair of visegrips to see how tough they are. I got at least 1/4 inch of movement at that exact point, the trany mount position is closer to the k member attachment point and wider which is why it works
------------------ 84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT L35 block Syclone Intake and ECM T04B H3 Turbo http://www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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11:20 AM
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
just thought of something else... FWIW I'm a little concerned about the firewall side motormount atttached to the origonal cross member. Your setup will impart a lot of torsional stress (twist)and I'm pretty sure I've twisted one of those by hand with a pair of visegrips to see how tough they are. I got at least 1/4 inch of movement at that exact point, the trany mount position is closer to the k member attachment point and wider which is why it works
That was a concern for me as well, but I tested the strength upgrades by turning the cradle upside down and actually bouncing up and down on that mount. Zero flex. Without the boxing and the bottom cap, I'm quite sure it would fail in a short amount of time. I you look real close at that picture with the mount, you will notice the cross member also had the "bulge" portion above the exhaust cut off and replaced with a plate. That plate is 5/16" thick and should make that piece pretty strong.
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- Robert Beaubien - 87 GT 5-speed (undergoing 3800 Series II SC swap) - www.fieroexcitement.com - Rate me if I've been helpful! -
[This message has been edited by RBeaubien (edited 03-02-2003).]
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11:24 AM
PFF
System Bot
skitime Member
Posts: 5765 From: Akron, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2000
I don't want to rain on your parade but I have studied the designs of other peoples mount designs and their failures. I would have to say you will be doomed to fail eventually if you only hold the engine at the cradle. Low mounts cannot hold the torque of this engine. One person actually bent his cradle with a design similar to your front mount. You must have a torque strut high on the engine. If you think of the torque of the engine similar to a merry-go-round then you would know how hard it is to stop a merry-go-round in the center. If you try to stop the merry-go-round at the outside it is much easier. Notice the factory locations of torque struts, they are always as high on the engine as possible for the same reason. They mount them as far from the crank as possible so the pressure to stop the torque is a lot less just like the merry-go-round. It is simple physics. Also with the rubber mounts you will get a lot of engine movement. No flames please. Just my opinion from studying this problem.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 03-02-2003).]
FreshJ - Most 3800's come with a steel oil pan, his has the aluminum pan (neat looking).
Very good advice above! I'm glad to see that you are going to add a dogbone. Jumping up and down on the mount does not generate the same force as your motor will. If your mount is say 6" from the crank shaft then you will see somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 lbs. of force from a motor making 300 ft. lbs. of torque. Then add in the dynamic effects of upshifting and downshifting and you could easily see spikes much greater than that. OK, I'm done. Maybe someone can post a pic of the dogbone bracket some people have used without moving the alternator. Of course, moving the alternator is "neater" IMO.
Good Luck, Dave
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09:33 PM
Freshj Member
Posts: 1250 From: Holly, Michigan Registered: Nov 2001
RBeaubien - looking sweet so far! Did the insulation material work out for the trunk area or did you opt to use the Dynomat instead?
When I t comes time for the dogbone there are several options, one of them being the unit that FreshJ posted, which we currently have a fixture to produce them in bulk - and FreshJ, its been quite hectic, I have not been able to get Craig's car over to the shop as it is currently torn apart to have every single part made of steel in the engine bay chromed, so - I will just have to send out the cable assy with the bellcrank assy. We will get this mystery solved A.S.A.F.P. =-)
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
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11:35 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
RBeaubien - looking sweet so far! Did the insulation material work out for the trunk area or did you opt to use the Dynomat instead?
When I t comes time for the dogbone there are several options, one of them being the unit that FreshJ posted, which we currently have a fixture to produce them in bulk - and FreshJ, its been quite hectic, I have not been able to get Craig's car over to the shop as it is currently torn apart to have every single part made of steel in the engine bay chromed, so - I will just have to send out the cable assy with the bellcrank assy. We will get this mystery solved A.S.A.F.P. =-)
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
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11:38 PM
PFF
System Bot
Freshj Member
Posts: 1250 From: Holly, Michigan Registered: Nov 2001
RBeaubien - looking sweet so far! Did the insulation material work out for the trunk area or did you opt to use the Dynomat instead?
The Dynomat worked out better being quite a bit thinner. I will have other uses for the insulation material though.
quote
When it comes time for the dogbone there are several options, one of them being the unit that FreshJ posted, which we currently have a fixture to produce them in bulk.
How much and how soon for this unit?
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- Robert Beaubien - 87 GT 5-speed (undergoing 3800 Series II SC swap) - www.fieroexcitement.com - Rate me if I've been helpful! :) -
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11:59 PM
Mar 3rd, 2003
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
If it is the DB that J posted it is $55.00, however to my knowledge, all the DB's have been $55.00 for any swap setup.
I will have to see picks of the alternator/dogbone mounting area after the install to confirm which unit you will need.
J - I will be confirming which bellcrank assy you need in the morning, then fabing it up and sending it out to you with the cable the same day ( providing I can get it all done before 4pm - Fed Ex closes then ), if I dont make it it will go out the following day.
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02:12 AM
87GT3800SC5SPD Member
Posts: 307 From: Gig Harbor, Washington Registered: Oct 2002
Really? Please send me a pic of a 3800 with a cast aluminum oil pan with the exhaust routed by it. My measurements indicated there was about 1" of space between the pan and the stock fiero right engine mount.
Robert,
This is my motor Sunday morning before going into the car. The third picture is of the 3 inch exhaust that was built around an aluminum pan like yours from the Bonneville and LeSabre. The pan was not modified. Due to a last minute engine change, this pan is not on the car now, but there was the same clearance between the exhaust and the pan as there is between the exhaust and the cradle. The motor is in and running as of 5pm Sunday . . . finally.
I found a picture (not a great one) of the 3 inch exhaust with the aluminum pan.
Robert, you're right, it won't work with the stock front mount. My mount is mounted to the top of the cradle rail. After these conversions are complete, there's not much 'stock' stuff left.
Good luck on your installation.
------------------ Bill Levin
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