I heard a rumor about FRAM oil filters and how they are crap apparently...are they as bad as im hearing?
i've been using them for about 2 years now, but that is the only oil filter i've ever used
thats for the comments
-Phil

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Pontiac Firefly 87 1.0L
Pontiac Fiero 86 SE 2.8L
Buick Skyhawk 76 3.8L
GMC Jimmy 85 305
"It's not how fast you go, but how good you look goin"

After reading the offical test results, I switched to Mobile 1 filters. Frams near the bottom of the list.

Well, as I cinch up my flamesuit, I'm replying to your thread...

I've always used them on all of my cars, except my diesel pickups (they always get Motorcraft). I tend to change my oil early, if not right on schedule, so I don't worry about it too much... Others will tell you that they're crap, but for me, I'll keep using them.

Nic

They are likely one of the lowest quality filters on the market, but even the worst quality available usually will work. If you change your oil often enough you likely can get by with no filter at all.

The teat results are here: http://www.minimopar.net/oilfilterstudy.html

i used to use fram, now i use pur-one

the thing that dissapoints me is, go to the parts store take a $10 K&N out of the box, and blow,and suck through it, the back flow valve DOSENT seal up like it SHOULD
now do it with a pur-one that costs half that, i use pur-one the anti drain back valve is a verry good thing, do you really want the filtered oil draning back into your engin when you shut off the car? i didnt think so, thats why i use Pur-one

ive never used a mobil 1 though, i looked everywhere here locally but absolutley nobody in town stocks the filters but even so id bet it isnt any better than a pur-one, and mobil 1 probibly costs just as much as a k&N

as you can see im happy with..... you gessed it PUR-ONE, go to the store and do the blow suck test and i think youll agree

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Rich
97 Eclipse 17lbs. of boost on the Rad, Bad t-25
92 325i-- intake, exhaust, and suspension
White 86 SE V6-- WCF 2" drop springs, coil-overs, KYb's

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: go to the store and do the blow suck test

that will get you arrested in Florida

I too have switched to PUR-ONE

The purpose of the anti drain valve is to keep the filter full of oil after shut down. The result is near instant oil system pressure. If the filter drains, it takes that much longer to presurize the system at startup. Longer delay means more wear.

All filters presently on the market must meet various OE and Industry standards. Obviously some exceed those standards but the question is how do you proove who is better.

When you look into this issue in detail, you quickly find many answers.

Test 1 says filter A is better than B.
Test 2 says filter B is better than A.
Test 3 says filter C is better than A and B.
Test 4 says all A B and C suck equally. D is really the best.
Test 5 says they are all POS and E is the only one worth buying.
Test 6 says, well, you get the idea......

The short answer is there is no short answer. Anyone that claim there is a short answer is flat out lieing.

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RIP Crew of Columbia. 01-Feb-03

Orge, dont you agree that having an anti-drain back valve would be better than not having one?

debating a filter, is as useless as debating oil, yes they all have to meet government qualifications, but we all tknow there is much better avalable

also some parts stores have a display differant brands of filters cut up, so you can see the guts. and its obvious that there are much better than fram

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Rich
97 Eclipse 17lbs. of boost on the Rad, Bad t-25
92 325i-- intake, exhaust, and suspension
White 86 SE V6-- WCF 2" drop springs, coil-overs, KYb's

All filters presently on the market must meet various OE and Industry standards.???

Is this true? It is my understanding that oil has a standard to meet but oil filters? Never heard this in my life. I have been told that the specifications that the individual product meets is up to the manufacture.

I have heard MANY claims from parts suppliers (the reps, not the counter people) that they are "as good as factory", but it is my understanding that there is not testing that must be passed (that is how a lot of the junk manufactures stay in business). It's up to the manufacture to tell the truth. I had a discussion about filters with a NAPA rep just a few days ago, I think I knew more about filters than he did. LOL, the final answer I got out of him was to change the oil often and you will not have to worry about the quality of the filter.

I'll just say what I was told back in 84 by the dealer after I bought my turbo charged Starion:
"If you put a Fram filter on it, the turbo will seize, and so might the engine. And it may void your warrenty. We've been getting cars in here left and right with this and they've all had Fram filters on them."

And this was less then 6 months after the car hit the market. Fram filters suck, and I would especially not use them with a turbo, ever.

How important an antidrain valve is depends what angle the filter is mounted at.

It is meaningless on engines, like old Chevy V8, that mount the filter mouth up. These filters don't need an ADV at all. They simply can't drain. Siphon a bit maybe but not drain dry.

It is less important on most other V engines since the filter is angled down from the block. They can only drain so much. They can never drain dry. Again, they might siphon a small amount but can't drain dry.

L engines have the filter horizontal and can drain completely without the valve. How dry depends where the inlet hole is in the mount flange. High inlet and it can't drain. Low inlet and it can drain completely dry. Since most people don't know where the inlet is in L engines, a good ADV is very important.

Testing

Filters aren't tested to government standards. They are tested to industry (Usually SAE in U.S.) and carmaker standards. These are generally far stiffer than any federal standard would be. Only Mil Spec may be a stiffer test.

GM Ford Chrysler and other carmakers are tough people to please. The big reason is warranty claims. They don't want any.

Think about it.... as many GM Ford and Chrysler cars that are on the road... they use a very small group of filters. As GM/Ford/Mopar have uped their test standards, all cars using those filters benfit. The PF52, 1A, etc, you bought 20 years ago aren't the same as the ones you buy today.

Could filters be better? Yes, but how to make them better is heavily debated even among the major players in the industry. Carmakers and filter/fluid makers spend huge amounts of money on this topic. Billions of dollars at least by now.

Pi_sants like K&N and Amsoil are way out in the cold on that. I have major doubts about any claim made by minority players in the filter/oil industry. I've yet to see any of those claims hold up in the lab or in court. (We won't even get into oil additive product. Many of those have ended up in court fighting the FTC.)

Same for oil... As API service class (SE SF SG etc) has gone up, all cars have benifitted.

All of the filters and oil on the market today are likely to far exceed the standard that GM specified when the Fieros where all built.

Example... some people pi_s about filters that use "cardboard" ends on the media. It's not cardboard. It may be fiber resin material but it's made specifically for this use. As long as the ends maintain the propper seal, it simply does not matter what they are made of.

Another example... they pi_s about the type of spring used in the filter... again, as long as the filter maintains propper internal sealing... it doesn't bloody matter what type spring is used.

Well...

Whoever it was who made the STP oil filter currently on my Escort is an idiot. Every time I start that car the valve train makes noise until the oil pressure comes up--and it didn't do that _before_ I took the Fram oil filter off at the last oil change...

I only had one Fram filter ever do this kind of thing--just one--and I've used Fram filters for years.

The guy with the oil filter site says: "I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circuilating through my system. The oil passge to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it." Sounds like he might have an axe to grind vs. Fram filters....

For what it's worth, I agree with theogre on this stuff...

Ed

All the heavy truck guys I know use WIX, and they swear on there quality, so thats what Ill use on my cars, plus NAPA has them, and the service is great at my NAPA.

I used Frams for years without any problems. I've stopped using them because there aren't many places that carry them any more. K-rapmart use to have them, and Mobil 1 also, but now they only have their brand.

I switched to PUR-ONE because that is what they stock right down the road.
A remote oil filter system dosent cost that much and you can add an extra filter if you want, it can be mounted so the filter cant drain.
I am thinking about doing that this year.

IMO, Fram makes a cheap low quality oil filter. If you've read any of the comparison tests online on the amount of filter medium in a brand of oil filter, Fram rates near the bottom, GM rates near the top and believe it or not the Walmart brand filter rates very good. As for an anti drainback valve this is not a concern on a Fiero. The oil passage on the Fiero V6 already has an anti-drainback valve in it. No external valve in the filter should be necessary.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

I don't beleive GM builds ANY engines with anti drainback valves built in. They DO use an internal bypass valve in many.

Any engine using PF47 or PF52 has the built in bypass valve, which is why those filters don't have one.

BTW. The bypass is actually available as a separate service part. Doesn't hurt to change it ocasionally. The spring does get weak over time. that can let the valve open more than it should.

There is another valve built into the oil pump in most engines. That's the pressure regulator not an anti drain valve. Some aftermarket units might have anti drain but I'm not aware of factory ones having it.

Again, usefulness of the ADV is relative the engine the filter is on.

On my L4 I think the inlet hole is to the side of the outlet. At the absolute most, the filter can only run down to 50% of it's volume. A filter that is angled down would loose even less. if the holes are side by side. If the inlet is at the top then you'd lose almost nothing even with no ADV at all.

One good thing about filter anti drain.... helps reduce the amount of spilling when changing filters that are mounted horizontal or anything near it. You still spill the oil between the filter flange and block but most of what is in the filter starys there.

Haven't had any problems using AC Delco filters. AC Delco and Mobil 1 is good stuff.

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Maroon 1987 GT 5 spd: 2.8L
Ferrari Red 1988 Formula 5 spd: 3.4L

My Website: http://www.members.cox.net/rare88/

I have tried the Wal-Mart brand, and from my own visual inspection it does appear to be a better filter than a Fram; however I noticed a lot of valvetrain noise at startup when I started using it. It went away when I went back to AC-Delco PF52.

The problem with Fram is that it is simply a very poorly engineered filter. All oil filters have a "bypass valve" which keeps them from bursting when trying to filter extremely cold, thick oil under high pressure (70-80PSI) - usually at startup. Once the oil pressure and thickness comes down from the oil warming up, the bypass valve opens and the filter begins filtering. Until this time, it simply passes unfiltered oil. This is normal, and much better than the alternative. However, the stronger the can's burst strength, the higher the bypass valve's pressure can be and the sooner it can start filtering your oil. Mobil 1 filters (which I have seen at Autozone) have the highest burst strength in the industry. This in conjunction with their high-strength synthetic filter element does make them worth the money.

Frams on the other hand have a thin can and a weak bypass valve that doesn't take much to engage, and they clog quickly from poor design standards and shoddy manufacturing. Cut open any Fram and you can confirm all of what is stated below.

From http://www.minimopar.net/oilfilter-fram1.txt :

Russell,
I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in
an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you
have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's
mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no
quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we
buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely
capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to
bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were
often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not
properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so
tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no
time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for
about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only
difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The
paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process
of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range
from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was
just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter
contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM
tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from
time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands
of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their
claims are entirely and completely marketing bullshit.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is
vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination
of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel,
will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can
quote me anytime.

[name withheld]

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After ZZ430 Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- '98 6-speed Corvette Coupe, '87 Coupe SOLD!

I have ALWAYS used Fram oil filters on my cars, including the '88 Fiero Coupe that my Dad now has, and it's got 270,000+ miles on it, on the original engine, with no internal engine work ever having been needed.

Use an A/C or a WIX/NAPA filter and you won't have any probs from the filter and both are reasonhably priced. Been using one or the other for years.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd
0-60 in 6.8 seconds!