1.Yes, to the common contact terminal (same terminal the fuel pump connects to on the fuel pump relay).

2.you don't hook that one up.

3.you can run all the injectors on the one 10 amp circuit.

------------------

quote Originally posted by PBJ: If I were you I would strip that wiring harness down to just the wires, with the wiring information in Rockcrawls site www.fieroaddiction.com For example you find MAP sensor terminal A goes to ECM terminal..... and so you connect them and move on to MAP sensor terminal B to ECM terminal.... after the engine is test run and codes are done tape the harness back up and cover it with the plastic tubing. If it is injector feed splice it into the original injector feed, if its a ground ground it to the engine, be sure the engine and body have a good ground. When you are done one wire at a time you will find all the connectors remaining, set them aside just in case. Hope this helps. Pete

Pete, so you're saying when doing the 4.9 swap, just forget about the caddy harness
and it's form, and just do a run from each sensor connector directly to the ECM..?

Where do you cut the harness to break it down to strands..? I assume you cut it a few inches form
the main ECM connection, then give you're self enough room to reconnect them as you fallow the path..?

It would be nice for someone to do a harness build thread....Start form scratch....Humm....
I would offer, but I don't have my setup yet, and I don't know enough about wiring to do it..

The way i did mine is:

The harness comming from the 4.9 (engine harness) i moved it to the what now is the rear of the motor (side closest to the fiero firewall)I then cut the wires at the C-225 (caddy original connector), The 3 ecm plugs, i left as much wire on them as i could at the time, which left me with about 8" to 10" of wire on each of the connectors. That gave me enough wire to put the caddy ecm in the stock fiero location, and also gave me enough harness lenght in the engine bay for motor movement.

When my first 4.9 took a dump and began pulling the motor out, i realized that pulling the harness with the 3 connectors thru that little hole on the firewall and then having to cut the wires to the cruise control would be a pain in the a$$. So what i did, i soldered the Caddy connector (C-225) back on to the engine harness and the other half of the caddy connector to the pigtails comming from the 3 ecm plugs. Now the C-225 connector
"lives" in the fiero engine conpartment and if i ever have to pull this motor, i'll just disconnect the C-225 and my harness is apart,
without having to take the interior of my fiero apart.

Ed

Two things i forgot to mention:
The junkyard i get my motors and stuff from,
they don't cut harnesses, they unplug them,
so if i have to swap motors it's just a matter of disconnecting and reconnecting C-225,

I now have a C-225 connector (which is NOT weathertight) right there where the computer harness comes thru the firewall, right below the backglass, and some people expressed their concern about rain getting in the connector and doing nasty things to my ecm(shorts) It has rained quite heavily here,
just last night i couldn't see the house across the street from me, because of the rain. I just came back from getting breakfast and that 4.9 just purrs.

[This message has been edited by ED's85GT (edited 07-20-2003).]

I just want to double check some things here.

Speedometer >> ok due to the differences in the 84 C203 connector, I connect the B11 (ECM) to Rockcrawls circuit and the output to C203 H?

ALDL >> ok, something is amok here, as the scanner will not communicate with the car. I am using the following connections (per 84):

A - ground - connected to ground
B - diagnostic terminal - connected to ecm C12 (fixed spark)
C - A.I.R. - n/c
D - ses lamp - connected to ecm A10 & C203 C
E - serial data - connected to ecm A8 (will disconnect per Rockcrawl)
F - TCC - n/c
G - fuel pump - to fuel pump relay

Please feel free to correct any of the above.

Also for the 84 C203 connector:

A - upshift light - not connected
B - fuel pump relay - to fuel pump relay
C - service engine soon light - ecm A10 & ALDL D
D - n/c
E - oil light - tan wire on oil pressure switch
F - ignition for injectors - one bank of injectors
G - n/c - wired for other bank of injectors
H - speed output - to speedometer??
I -
J - n/c
K - n/c
L - n/c
M - ground - to ground
N -
O -
P - n/c
Q -
R - crank ouput - to starter

Again, please feel free to correct any of the above.

Cutting the harness - the only place that the harnes was cut on this one that we are doing is one the drivers side section that went into the cabin - the ECM harnes was not cut at all (we had everything including the 2 fuse boxes and relay block from the engine bay). Basically I removed the harness from the engine, unwrapped it, identify each wire that was cut and removed all the unnecessary ones (most of the engine sensors went straight to the ECM).

Tim

Well we finished and tryed starting her yesterday. She fired up for about a second or two and then died. We thought that it might have been the fuel pump so I went out today and got a new one and replaced it. We tryed starting it again and the same thing happened. We would turn on the key(fuel pump would go) then crank and she would fire up and then die. We then disconnected the paskey circuit and it did the exact same thing. It will fire up and then die...but if we try to turn the key again(having not turned it all the way off) she won't even fire up. Is this what the paskey does? Can anyone tell me exactly what the paskey does? Or where it sends signals to? And I am just making sure but we used the pinouts off of rock's site and there for 91, but many people(including rock) have told me that they can be used, so I'm just wondering if there is any differences in the pinnouts...anyone know? Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. And she has fuel and spark.

You have a Passkey problem. Sounds like the ciruit you made up is not doing its job. You need to get it tested with an Osciliscope (50/50 square wave) or get a PROM from Rockcrawl with the passkey already defeated.

Your discription of start and stall, and no start after you have bleed off the 2 sec prime is exactly what passkey error does.

Thx PBJ, could I just wire in the original paskey module from the cadilac? Or is that not an option?

Yes but you would need to know the resistance from the ignition key pellet to then soldier into the signal feed to the thieft module to wire into the ecm.

I bet if you pour gas in it, it will run. Wanna bet its your ECM coolant temp sensor?

Had the EXACT same thing happen to me with Jesse's car. When I hooked the scan tool to it it showed the ECM coolant sensor was -60deg. The VATS fuel cut off was NO. Replaced the sensor and it fired right up.

Steven

BV Motorsports >> fuel injected - Possible it could be the sensor, but the engine was running before the swap (maybe a bad connection). I am unable to connect my scanner to the ECM (see above post), it keeps saying that the ECM is not responding, so I am unable to check any readings (so I really need to know the ALDL pinout connections).

...are these correct?

A - ground - connected to ground
B - diagnostic terminal - connected to ecm C12 (fixed spark)
C - A.I.R. - n/c
D - ses lamp - connected to ecm A10 & C203 C
E - serial data - n/c
F - TCC - n/c
G - fuel pump - to fuel pump relay

Thanks,
Tim

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 07-20-2003).]

For scantool data transfer, you need to connect ECM terminal A8 to terminal M of either the Fiero or Cadillac ALDL connector, and scan as a Deville (VIN fourth digit C).

found here http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49d.html

All I can tell you is some scan tools will not work and some will. I had zero luck with the caddy ecm and switched early to the 730 ecm because of this.

Pete

PBJ >> ok, will try that...interesting tho, as the car never originally had a wire running to ALDL M - oh the joys

Hmmm, my scanner uses the 8th VIN digit to scan (typo?). Alldata seems to suggest that the Caddy engine code is a 'B' - oh, more joy

BTW, does anyone happen to know what the differences are between passkey, passkey II and III? Is it just the frequency?

Thanks to everyone for all the help,
Tim

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 07-21-2003).]

Just an idea to help you find out if it is the passkey or not. remove the connector from the oil pressure sensor and jumper between Pins A and C. this should make your fuel pump run. Then see if the engine stays running. If it does it is more than likely a passkey problem? I would recommend that you contact Rockcrawl about getting you MelCal pack (chip) reprogrammed. He did ours. He killed the passkey circuit and changed a number of other codes. Our car has been running for several weeks now with no major problems just a few minor issues that we have taken care of. Good Luck

The Caddilac ECM needs a 30hz signal at 50% duty cycle. If you're using the circuit on my website, R3 needs to be 1k and R2 needs to be 24k. The value of C3 is also very important. Substituting different values will alter the frequency. You could use a GM passkey module, but find a used one with a matching key, new ones are expensive.

The ECM will not pulse the injectors if the correct VATS signal is not there. The fuel pump will run even during VATS fuel cutoff unless you have a passkey module wired in to interrupt the fuel pump relay.

The ALDL needs only three wires, A, B, and M, all others should be empty. The serial data (A8 or A9) needs to go to ALDL pin M for scantool communication. If you're using the Fiero ALDL just move the wire from position E to position M, Cadillac ALDLs already have the data wire at M. Scan as a '91 Deville; VIN tenth digit M, first digit 6, eighth digit B, fourth digit C.

Perfect! Thanks rockcrawl. I am using the paskey described on your site. Its fine though because I can go back to the wreckers and get the original paskey from the donor car that I got the engine out of.

Yes thanks for the info...

...and yes it is the passkey circuit, I removed the built circuit and the same symptoms - we did originally think there was a problem with the fuel pump - cutting off or not building up the pressure - I jumpered the ALDL pin G (fuel pump) to 12v to run the pump to verify that it was running, then it was discovered that the car would only attempt to start only if the ECM was reset (key off) which lead me to think the passkey was not working (I didn't really know at the time what the passkey affected, but removing it from the ECM changed nothing with the way it tried to start, so it had to be a problem with the passkey). Tried modifying the circuit as well with no luck.

See Lance, I told you to just pick up the module and make life much easier. :P

anyways, thanks again.
Tim

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 07-21-2003).]

hahaha ya ya...well I just got home from work and I'm off to bed so I can get up nice and early to go get that paskey and the misc other parts. Tim I'll give you a ring when I'm on my way home(if your not at work) and if you'd like to stop by that would be cool. Fingers crossed but hopefully she'll be purring tomorrow...

K guys I need one more question answered. I went and got the paskey module out of the cadilac. Now, I was wondering if anyone had the pinnouts for it? I need to know where to wire the key(resistance),power, ground, and signal to the ecm. There are 8 wires going into it, The signal one is easily identified. But the rest I'm not sure of. If anyone had the pinnouts that would be great! Thx!

Lance you will have to pull out that cd I gave you, the info is on it, I have seen it. I didn't pay too much attention to it at the time, but it is there.

Tim

Passkey module PN 16135270.
resistor between purple and white wires.
black/white to ground.
red to battery.
pink/black to ignition.
blue to ECM.
ignore the green and black/yellow wires.

Thanks rock! Your awesome!

Is it running???

Free bump back to the top...

------------------

formerly 'Haagster'

Everybody has talent and potential when they are twenty. The challenge is to still have it at forty. - paraphrased from Edward Degas

Not runnin yet. All that needs to be done is to wire in a resistor into the paskey. Then hopefully she'll be runnin. So if the electronics store is open tomorrow(sunday, crossing fingers)then It should be up and runnin. I'll let you all know as soon as it fires up!

I also have a quick question, I am about to hook up my fuel vapor lines using the stock fiero canistor. There are two, as you can see on page one I am pointing to them. There were 3 lines coming off the throttle body on the caddy. One went strait down to the transmition, I think thats not it but not sure...and then two where coming off the throtle body and running over and down the left rear side of th engine actually near the vapor canistor. Are those the two to hook up? And if anyone knows which one is vacume and which one is for the vapor that information would be greatly appreciated! Thx!

quote Originally posted by Elenor84: I am about to hook up my fuel vapor lines using the stock fiero canistor.

I don't recall if you are using the caddy ecm or not.
If you are, then you'll need a selenoid controlled vac canister (I'm using the one that came stock in the caddy) on top of the canister it tells you which line to vacuum and which line to fuel tank.

I have my vac line to the T/B plugged in right next to the alternator on the port closest to the trunk (the port actually points towards the trunk)

I hope that helps a little.

Ed

small CCP tube to port A on throttle body, larger tube to port J.

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: small CCP tube to port A on throttle body, larger tube to port J.

??????????! Could you explain this please?

Ed

quote ??????????! Could you explain this please?

The canister purge control acts as an emission control system. This system prevents fuel vapors from being released into the atmosphere. A carbon canister traps evaporating fuel vapors from the fuel tank. After the vehicle is started, fuel vapors are "purged" or drawn from the canister into the intake manifold, depending on certain engine operating conditions. For example, during warm engine cruise conditions, the vapors are purged (vented) from the canister and are drawn into the intake manifold for combustion.

The carbon canister is filled with active carbon (charcoal). The carbon in the canister absorbs fuel vapors emitted from the fuel tank. While the canister is being purged, fresh air is drawn up through the bottom of the canister. The fresh air circulates through the charcoal, releasing trapped vapors and taking them to the intake manifold for combustion.

On the Cadillac system, canister purge is controlled by the canister purge solenoid valve. The canister purge solenoid is mounted on top of the carbon canister. This solenoid allows ported manifold vacuum to purge the fuel vapor canister when energized. The ECM energizes the solenoid when certain conditions are met.

There is also a fuel tank vapor pressure control valve on the Cadillac. It is a spring-biased vacuum diaphram valve which is normally closed. When the engine is running, ported vacuum is applied to the valve when the throttle valve is cracked open. Fuel vapors from the tank are now allowed to vent into the canister. When the engine is shut off, no vacuum is applied to the valve and fuel vapors remain in the fuel tank. This valve also acts as a pressure relief valve when fuel vapor pressure in the tank exceeds approximately 3 psi. The fuel vapor pressure control valve is not required.

The Cadillac solenoid controlled charcoal canister will not fit in the Fiero mounting bracket. If you would like to retain the computer controlled purge function, a canister from a '90 Quad 4 Grand Am can be used. PN 17089060. It has two ports, Tank and Purge, and an electric solenoid. The tank port is to be connected to the fuel tank vent line. The purge line is to be connected to vacuum at port A or J on the throttle body. If the FTVPCV is used, it is to be connected inline with the tank vent line and to port J on the throttle body.

The Fiero canister will have three ports; Tank, Purge, and Control. The tank port should be connected to the fuel tank vent line. The purge port should be connected to port J on the throttle body. The control port should be connected to port A on the throttle body.

I can't really explain it any better than that, except small tube to port A, large tube to port J.

Ok, enough with all these wonderful detailed instructions. Any more and my wife is going to kill me when I drag a busted old caddy into the driveway one of these nights. MMMmmm V8 Powah.

Rockcrawl, once again...you are the man! I have some diagrams but none show which one is A and which one is J, there are two on the right hand side of the "throttle body". Now when looking from the right side of the car, one line is further left(towards trunk) and one is further right(towards front of car), which one is A and which one is J??? Thx!

The letters SHOULD be stamped or cast into the Throttle body assembly above or beside the port(s)

K guys I'm so frustrated. Everything is done but she won't start!!! This is the situation. I got the paskey from the original car(94 deville) and wired it into my car. Now the resistance of the key on the caddy was 15 ohm's, so I went out and bought a 15 ohm resistor. I measured it to make sure it was right on. It was. So I wired that in. She still doesen't fire up. This is what happens, she will turn and fire up and run for one or two seconds and then die down. The she will not fire up again unless I turn the key back to off and then back on again. Does anyone know if some wiring could be wrong, ie. injectors, ignition yada yada yada??? Or does this still sound like paskey? Any suggestions on how to fix it? Last question is directed to rockcrawl. How fast could you get a chip out to me that had the paskey defeated and how much do you charge? Thanks for any help guys...

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: On the Cadillac system, canister purge is controlled by the canister purge solenoid valve. The canister purge solenoid is mounted on top of the carbon canister. This solenoid allows ported manifold vacuum to purge the fuel vapor canister when energized. The ECM energizes the solenoid when certain conditions are met. The Fiero canister will have three ports; Tank, Purge, and Control. The tank port should be connected to the fuel tank vent line. The purge port should be connected to port J on the throttle body. The control port should be connected to port A on the throttle body. .

Thank you, Rock

If using the Fiero canister (without the selenoid)won't the the Caddy ecm set a code when it doesn't "see" the selenoid?

Or does the Caddy ecm just send a signal to the selenoid, not caring if the selenoid "hears" it or not (one way communication to the canister selenoid)?

Thanks again Jon

Ed

Ps: Elenor84, I didn't mean to hijack your thread here, I know that the info that Rockcrawl is providing will help us both.

You need to get a PROM from Rockcrawl to solve a bunch of your problems!

Pete

port A is more toward the front of the car. The letters are all cast into the TB.

The ECM doesn't monitor it's driver circuits. You will only get codes if you leave things disconnected that send a signal to the ECM, things like cruise control position sensor. The outputs don't matter on this ECM unless it is expecting to see a change as a result from switching the output, like the EGR where it looks for a leaner reading at the O2 when it switches the EGR. It does perform self test on things like that, but not on the driver circuits themselves.

email me about a chip. Rockcrawl@FieroAddiction.com

[This message has been edited by rockcrawl (edited 07-28-2003).]

Email sent, but is there no other suggestions? I really need some help diagnosing this. Could it be something else? Could I have messed up the wiring some place? Has this happened to anyone else. And my bigest question is, has anyone ever installed a 1994 4.9 from a deville in a fiero? Just curious if someone has the specific pinnouts of a 1994 so that I can be sure about the wiring. Thanks again...

If you have start and stall, you have a pass key problem. The pinouts are the same for 94 engines at 91 engines.

Pete

elenor- check the resistance of you're key pellet again, there is 15 resistor values for the pass key system. 392, 523, 681, 887, 1130, 1470, 1870, 2370, 3010, 3740, 4750, 6040, 7500, 9530, 11800 ohm. add resistors of different values in series if necessary to get the correct value

Mike thanks for the info - the key is not in his possesion, he was only able to keep it temporary and the reading he got (of 15 ohms) is what a GM dealer told him when they measured it for him. The wreckers wanted to keep the key - go figure since it's useless to them without the module.

Lance, if you are up early enough today, give me a call and I can stop by and try something on the car, we can probably have it running today (if passkey is the only thing).

Tim

quote The pinouts are the same for 94 engines at 91 engines.

'94-95 had different transmission solenoid wiring and had a trans temp sensor built in. You need to be sure which one you have and wire it correctly. The ECM pinouts are the same with just the addition of the temp sensor input on F12. If the trans connector is wired wrong it won't shift.