Sorry about not making a post to this thread last night, but I fell asleep instead.

So far we've seen JD's original one off design become a mass produced collection of engineering errors many of which are still in production.

I'm sure there are several examples of the Zumwalt/Corson et al kits that are running fine and have stood the test of time. To those people I say bless you. You are either lucky that it stayed together or you are lucky that the person putting it together had the vision to see some of the potential problems and do his best to find a way to address lessen their effect on the final product.

We've looked at shaved bolt heads on automatic kits for clearance on Torque converters, we've seen the damage to a transmission caused by not shaving those bolt heads. We've seen chunks of engine blocks cut away for clearance and missing bolt holes. We've seen compromises made to put 10 pounds of clutch & F/W in a 5 pound bag. We've seen how it developed that the Z/C kits moved the engine over to the left in the car . We've seen and still see excuses that it was moved over to "center" it in the engine compartment & we've heard that the stock axles can't take the power and the new axles were necessary to avoid breakage. All these excuses are to cover-up what is in reality an engineering blunder that no one ever noticed or addressed before copying someone else's' work.

We've looked at how a compromise in the adapter plate & F/W design can cause problems with the clutch.

Please excuse the picture quality. Before I got my digital camera, I used to record everything on tape and these pics were captured from video tape.

In this picture you can see how the springs in the center hub of the clutch disc have touched and worn in the area of the shallow center bolt flange of the F/W.

This particular assembly was taken apart by us to correct a Clutch failure (the 3rd. such failure on this particular car).

The Clutch had a malfunction.

And Failed

I've only had to work on 8 Zumwalt/Corson V-8 kits, 3 were automatics and 5 were Stick shift cars. Each one of the stick shift cars were being repaired for clutch problems or repeated pre-mature clutch wear. Of those 5 cars I've only seen 2 of the Flat head Allen caps screws that were broken off. I've broken several of them taking them out but only 2 of the bolts were broken when I disassembled the engine/transmission assy. So that's only 2 bolts out of 30 that were broken. Both of them, of course, caused clutch failure.

The only clutch you can use on this system without risking failure is a clutch that has no center spring hub like CA Kid has. As far as clutches are concerned, I don't think there is much else that can be said.

We touched on the subject of Axles a couple of times and I've shown you how the Corson version of the kit known as the Zumwalt kit proved that it was not the best of engineering thought that went into a situation where you move the engine to the left in the car to clear the right side frame rail only to discover after the fact that moving it over required the cutting of the left side frame rail. Thus the stick shift axles were a waste of money.

I've had some people ask me "If moving the engine over to the right on a Z/C kit is such a bad idea then why do you (ME) do the same thing on the LT1 swaps?"

Anyone who is familiar with LT1 engines know that the distributor is mounted on the end of the engine on the LT1 and I'm here to tell you that the TOTAL assembled engine length on the LT1 is some 3.5" longer that a "normal" SBC engine assembled engine length. If you just notch the right side frame rail to take all of that 3.5", the pulleys on the right side will extend out into a position where they can interfere with the right side suspension system. So I advise my potential customers that if they choose the LT1 engine they will HAVE to have Custom length axles AND will have to notch the frame rails on BOTH sides. I also advise them that my V-8 kit for a "normal" SBC engine is designed to have NO frame cutting and only a little bit of sheet metal trimming.

Tomorrow we'll try to wrap this thing up and get ready to take your questions.

Archie

Ohhh Archie...(I had to say that)
We all know your kit is the "Mercedes" of kits-but I also give credit to both Bubba joes kits and Garys kits. They remind me of the Vector designer/owner who crammed Olds trannys in his crazy ass cars. Everything I do is done half-assed anyway.
OUT>

quote Originally posted by Archie: You don't know how right you are.... fell asleep on the couch last night. I'll try to stay awake tonight. Archie

Can't imagine how you could be tired . . .

Hope you had a good nap!

this is so good im sending it to the top.
thanks archie

^^^

Those pics look pretty good for a video capture.

waiting for tonights installment ......

I'm enjoying the hell out of this story, Archie. I'm also impressed by the way you are telling it. You could be bashing Z to no end...yet you're telling it in a very "matter of fact" way, explaining in detail why each problem with the Z kit IS a problem...and how it could have been avoided. I'm patiently waiting to see what you write next!

------------------
Mike
86 GT 4 Speed

"Tomorrow we'll try to wrap this thing up and get ready to take your questions.

Archie"

just a bump

did the show get cancelled?

damn Censor's

Let's go Archie, Lets Go! CLAP CLAP CLAP

Let's go Archie, Lets Go! CLAP CLAP CLAP

Let's go Archie, Lets Go! CLAP CLAP CLAP

Rah, Rah, Rah!!!

I'll make some time to post this up tonite.

Thanks for your interest.

Archie

Don't forget to vote for the LT1 Stinger at the Fiero show near you.

------------------

Archie, I have a question.

I am putting a Cosworth Vega engine in an '84 Fiero, and need to make/adapt a coolant filler and cap for the engine compartment. I thought if you are already making or have adapted something from one of the original Fiero engines for your V8 conversions, you might sell me one to save me the work/time of making one from scratch.

Please let me know.

Thanks,

------------------
Gerald Storvik

http://www.8shark.com/

This is what I call clear & concise information. Too bad there was no internet (not as spread) in early 90s for people to know about this things. Thanks.

------------------
Alex4mula
:) Red-Original Owner & Yellow AP-1/94 with PM (:

Bipity bopity bump.

Archie? Are you there?

And a bumpity-bumpity-bump . . .

You didn't forget about all those poor people sitting at the edge of their seats, did you?

Tina

I would imagine that Archie is getting ready, or is on the road for the Daytona show.

------------------

quote Originally posted by Tina: You didn't forget about all those poor people sitting at the edge of their seats, did you? Tina

I hope you all will forgive me, I've been totally swamped with things to do. I've been shipping parts left and right, trying to get cars & people ready to go to Daytona and packing and shipping Fino/Finale body kits.

In 8 hours I'll be on the road to Daytona and I'll be back Tuesday sometime. Wednesday & Friday I have 2 big customers comming in so even next week is loaded up. But as soon as I get back, I'll get you all caught up.

I'm really sorry about this.

Thank You

Archie

Archie,I'm glad you're busy this week,if you weren't,you might not be around next week when someone will surely have to draw on your expertice.

------------------
#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

bump...

I know you won't be able to answer these questions, for a week or so. But I wanted to ask them before I forget.

Has someone tried to copy your kit?
If so what happened?

With all the people that have copied the "Zumwalt" kit, you would think someone would get smart and try to copy yours. Don't get me wrong I don't think anyone should copy anyone elses hard work. I would just like to here if you have had any trouble with people trying to copy your work. Thanks in advance. Keep up the great story.

------------------

No way this thread is getting buried.

Bump.

[This message has been edited by FieroGTS (edited 03-25-2002).]

ttt
keep it easy to find

Hey, Archie, will there be a test after class?

I have been reading Archie's post with great interest, as I was the first purchaser of a Gary Zumalt manual V-8 "Kit" in 1986. At that time Gary indicated he had manufactured several automatic kits but no manual kits. However, he indicated he would have them in a few weeks. My kit came from a batch of six that were made locally by someone with a small machine shop using only manual equipment.
At that time, I drove my new 86GT to JD's shop in the limestone "cave" just outside Independence MO. ( It still has a scratch on the drivers side sail glass where Gary leaned up against the car taking engine compartment measurements)
Gary was the only person I had contact with at the time. I was never introduced to JD even though it was his shop.
The demo car that I rode in was the red automatic with a 406ci V-8 and tunnel ram.
I ordered the manual kit, which at that time was made using a STEEL adapter plate that had been fabricated on a manual mill / drill press and painted flat black. This was prior to Gary offering CNC manufactured aluminum adapter plates. The axles supplied were definitely NOT Mosler quality axles. The quality was borderline at best. They were instead fabricated locally prior to Gary approaching Mosler. The clutch was from a local rebuilder and the flywheel looked like something from a high school shop class.... The motor / trans mounts were made from angle iron and flat plate cut free hand in a band saw. The "installation instructions" consisted of a single page xerox copy, and were not received until several months after the parts were received.
At this time Gary had apparently had his "separation" from JD and was operating out of a one car garage at his mothers house in Grandview MO.
The kit was shipped piecemeal over a period of 6 months, even though it had been paid in full up front. It took three trips to Kansas City before most of the components were finally received.
The kit was never installed, and sat in my garage for several years as I was never satisfied with the quality of workmanship. The countersunk flywheel bolt attachment method described by Archie left me cold. The adapter plate also had several attachment holes drilled off center. The dowel pin holes would not line up.
The kit was ultimately sold to a speed shop in Ohio.
The only exception I would take to Archie's chronology is that at least a few manual kits WERE manufactured locally in Kansas City before Corson got into the act. This fact runs contrary to Archie's assertion that the manual kits had been designed by Corson. Perhaps they "re-designed" what Gary had started. Otherwise, I find Archies comments accurate in all other respects.
As a manufacturing engineer, I had offered to provide assistance to Gary in improving the process and quality of his manufactured components (not the design), but Gary was not apparently interested.
Just thought I would add my first hand personal experiences with Gary and the history of the Zumalt V-8 kits. I haven't seen or heard from him for years.
Probably just as well...

Kerry
Eureka MO

[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 03-27-2002).]

The plot thickens...

^^^

Kerry,

I for one really appreciate your input. First hand accounts to verify, "passed on" information is always welcome. Am sure everybody watching/listening wants to hear the entire, accurate history on this thing. In addition to firming up Archie's story, you have further bolstered people's confidence and trust in him, and maybe let those who weren't quite sure know, that he is an allright guy, in addition to being the leader in the sbc swap circle.

Thanks, and I would be interested in anything else you have to add, I'm sure Archie would also appreciate confirmation, though I'm sure he doesn't need it!

------------------
Have a good one!

[This message has been edited by Sage (edited 03-27-2002).]

I went back into my Fiero V-8 file from 1986 and found the following information regarding the Zumalt kit that others may find useful:

The starter supplied by Gary was a rebuilt "Mega-Torque" from a rebuilder in Kansas City, however the part number on the starter supplied turned out to be a Datsun starter # S114-254D with an ISO# 047. At the time Autozone offered the equivalent starter for about $125.00

The flywheel ring gear was a Datsun replacement #120C (Republic Brand) also from AutoZone. However the numbers stamped on the ring gear were either 434 or 481. It was a 120 tooth gear.

The V belts used were Dayco 15625

The Water hoses used were Dayco 71012 and 81492. (Only the large half of 71012 was used.)

The radiator hose filler was a Moroso # 63740

The throw out bearing was a Fed. Mogul Bower / BCA # 614009

The water pump pully was a Ford # D20Z-8509-A or #D20E-8509-AA.

The crankshaft pully was a GM # 3755820-BC.

Also, the minimal instructions outline the cutting of BOTH left and right side body rails:

"Left side body rail is cut with front edge 1/8" rearward of existing hole on bottom of rail and extend 8 3/4" rearward to almost join second hole on bottom of rail."

"Right side body rail is cut 10 1/2" long starting 9 1/2" from passenger compartment bulkhead."

So much for moving the engine... on the premise that the body rails did not have to be cut.

Finally, because of the shortcoming of the kit, I actually drew up a set of adapter and flywheel drawings for myself using basic dimensions from the Zumalt adapter, but changing those areas that were of questionable design. For example, the adapter plate thickness was increased from 5/8" to 3/4" to provide more clearance for the clutch disc and increase the flywheel web thickness.
I have JPEG pictures of these drawings if anyone has interest in seeing them and can provide the proceedure to download them to this forum. I used them to manufacture a new adapter and flywheel that I intended to use for a 4.3 conversion and leave the stock length axles.
To those who would like drawings...NO... I will not supply them. These were for my use only and not for commercial use. But, a picture of them or the adapter and flywheel that I manufactured from them may serve to add a little more history to the Zumalt debate.

Oh...I inaccurately stated in my earlier post that the xerox instructions were on one page. Not true...it was TWO pages, and it included a cover letter and single page parts list.

Kerry

PS. The information and part numbers provided above are offered for informational purposes only. There is no assurance that any of these parts will work today...or that they worked as intended in 1986 for that matter.

Thanks for the added insight Kerry. I'd suggest posting those pics you have in the "Home Built V8' thread so they can be stumbled across easily in the future for anyone who's curious. We've got some interesting stuff coming out over in that thread.
You can download Pennocks Image Poster,PIP, at the bottom of the page, it has instructions and there's lots of people out here who can help you figure it out if need be. Jump into the real time chat room (also bottom of page)after 8 pm or so in the evenings and you can likely find people to walk you thru a first pic post.
Cheers

Just added a pic of the adapter drawing mentioned above.
Kerry

[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 03-27-2002).]

Could you use a bigger Picture?
try this one https://www.fiero.nl/uploads/Mvc-003f_16_1.jpg

Gotta keep this thread alive...

ahem. bump.

I want to take this opportunity to thank Archie for taking up his time to go through all of this. The second person I call when I get another Fiero will be Archie.

I met Archie at the Daytona show. I was a bit skeptical about doing a swap but after meeting him, and seeing his demo cars (Stinger and Finale), and seeing how he can restore a Fiero that only cost $50 to become a Small Block 350 rocket, I know I will most definately be calling him as soon as I get the cash! Archie is the man.

I hope he get's home soon to finish this thread off!

quote Originally posted by Blazerguy: ahem. bump. I want to take this opportunity to thank Archie for taking up his time to go through all of this. The second person I call when I get another Fiero will be Archie.

So Archie you have time to razz HTD a bit but no time to finish your own thread????

We're all waiting.........

quote Originally posted by Archie: In 8 hours I'll be on the road to Daytona and I'll be back Tuesday sometime. Wednesday & Friday I have 2 big customers comming in so even next week is loaded up. But as soon as I get back, I'll get you all caught up.

Be patient guys!

Red rover, red rover, send Archie on over.

Bump.

Waiting for this post is like waiting for the next two Lord of the Ring movies. Meaning: I CAN'T WAIT!

quote Originally posted by FieroGTS: Bump. Waiting for this post is like waiting for the next two Lord of the Ring movies. Meaning: I CAN'T WAIT!

I'm thinking of you guys, really I am.

Been working real hard on this LT1 swap for the last several days. I soon as I can show you a picture of this thing running, I'll be able to steel the time to finish up this thread.

Archie