I normally stay out of v-8 threads, since I don't have one nor do I plan one @ my age , but Archie has touched on something that I know a little about, & his thread has slowed down a little while Archie is busy doing what he does best-building fine Automobiles-so I'll take this oppotunity to comment.
Using tapered holes & matching tapered socket head cap screws isn't an exact science. It CAN be, if done right but you better have the right equipment and QC controls in place to do it (not saying that the shop in question did not, since I don't know). My experience in medical grade machineing applications where close tolerances of say +.1000/-.0000 (+one ten thousanth, minus 0)give me a little insight into what Archie is talking about concerning using these bolts & angled holes. If you look at the picture, you can see some contact points down near the bottom of the holes. This is what usually happens with these bolts & counter sinks. Not only do you have the side thrust & subsequent bending Archie mentioned, but during the milling operation, it is difficult to match the angles of the holes and the angles of the bolt heads exactly, which is what you need to keep the flywheel perfectly centered over the center of the hole pattern. Improper feed rates, differences in material hardness, tool deflection all play a part in this. It is very easy & even common to get an egg shaped countersink too, even tho you can't see it with your eye, you can see it under a comparator. If the countersink is not perfectly aligned with the center of the bolt hole, you again have the off center stresses Archie is talking about. Another problem comes from the fact that all bolts aren't created equal-that is, the angles aren't perfect right out of the box, even with good grade bolts. We use machine bluing and match our bolts to the holes to insure uniform contact areas, even if we end up having to use a precision angle grinder to make them match, then use a spot grinder, similar to a valve seat grinder to polish the counter sink.
Now say you have a perfect match of bolt & countersink. Great, you know now that it isn't likely to back out, except the torqued down bolt now has more clamping force than a regular cap screw between the 2 surfaces. It means it will take a great deal of force to remove it. Anybody that has removed many allen headed bolts knows how easy it is to strip out or break tools or bolts. Add to this, the side thrust on the bolts, it is just not the best way to go on something that is subjected to the streses of heat & fatigue a flywheel is. I can't tell by the pictures, but it doesn't look like the bolts are matching the angle of the c-sinks, at least on some of them. I would also be concerned at the little imperfections you can visibly see at the tops of the countersinks.

Just my thoughts, now I'll leave this to you experts on V-8 swaps.
Don

OK let us hear from the people that have used this flywheel and bolt combination and have had it fail.

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 06-16-2002).]

quote Originally posted by peabody: Plus, the Fiero has the longest right side axle of any GM FWD, so moving the engine over just increases this length, increasing shaft flex that leads to breakage.

Wrong. Shorter axle means greater CV joint angle, which leads to breakage.

"Wrong. Shorter axle means greater CV joint angle, which leads to breakage"
Will, while this is a minor point, I disagree. While shorter axle does have a greater angle, that contributes to CV failures, not axle breakage. A shorter axle is subject to breakage because it lacks the length to absorb torsional shock, proper material selection limits that problem. However, axle material that can withstand this twisting is poorly suited to the wipping action caused by a long axle. You can check this out with a racing axle manufacturer, I did.
GM makes cars with axles that are two inches shorter than a stock Fiero, but they don't make any that are longer. Why?
While Will thinks it's the axle's shortness that causes the breakage and I say it's the excessive length, the fact remains that the small diameter of the splined ends that causes most driveline failures.
Will, thanks for the reply. It's different viewpoints that open our minds to new ideas, enen when we disagree.

What Will said, but also the longer axle will accept more torsional twist (due to it's length) without permanent distortion. The short shaft only has to twist about half as much before it shears. Clarification: I run Mark Williams racing splined shafts (390 ft lbs torque engine), tried stock short shaft (shortened 2 in) once and twisted it. Car has been running since '93 with no failures to the long right side half shaft or CV's.

Related to the Zumalt flywheel, which mine is modified, but still has countersunk bolts, I only have had one problem where one bolt had to be heated to be removed. It's not that I dismiss what Archie is saying, I'm sure there were some bad flywheels produced. One of the benefits of the Zumalt flywheel is that you have a lot less rotating mass because it's thinner. I wouldn't want to do the math, but it should also reduce the initial loads on the bolts on initial acceleration. The forces are only one direction (except for bolt torque) in either upshifts or down shifts. As far as the Bolts coming lose, you should be using a drop of loctite on each bolt anyway, I've never had one back out.

Maryjane has made some real good points about the care that has to be taken when the flywheel is machined (Archie also showed how sins can lead to failure).

Bottom line is that anyone who takes the time to do research, knows people who can do the work required that they can't do, has the time/money for the project, can do a sweet custom conversion. Anything can be improved upon, it just take knowledge, time, money, it just isn't a short route.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-17-2002).]

quote Originally posted by peabody: the fact remains that the small diameter of the splined ends that causes most driveline failures.

Every halfshaft failure that I've ever seen was caused by the CV joint itself failing.

As I said before I have broken more than 12 stock fiero axles all but one of them was the long side and none not even one was the result of a CV failure! Take a look at the axle diameter and compare it to any rear wheel drive axle shaft. The fiero shaft is only 1.1 inchs in diameter where a chev ten bolt is 1.3, ford 9” is 1.5, dana 44 is 1.3. Not only are all these application larger but also the axle is supported at both ends. The simple fact is that the stock fiero axle is smallish and can be broken as HP and traction increase

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86 SE, 88 front and rear suspension, 6.6 Liter EFI SBC, RaceTech ECU,Subframe Connectors, Poly Bushings,17X8 MHTs with 235 45 17 front, 245 45 rears, Lots more!

How can that be? I thought Archie said he's never seen a stock Fiero break? So far we've had one person say that the short axle breaks while another says that it's mostly the long axle that breaks and yet another that says is only the CV joints that break. Anyway, back to the title of this discussion, Zumalt. Anyone made some improvements on this design?

Wow this thread actually got back to some useful info after pages of bumps. I have no idea about the axles and which is more likely to break but Peabody's first post of this "chapter" of this thread was very well said.
Funny what happens when the people that are normally affraid to get jumped on show up in a thread, less BS and more info!

Cheers.....

quote Originally posted by peabody: "Wrong. Shorter axle means greater CV joint angle, which leads to breakage" Will, while this is a minor point, I disagree. While shorter axle does have a greater angle, that contributes to CV failures, not axle breakage. A shorter axle is subject to breakage because it lacks the length to absorb torsional shock, proper material selection limits that problem. However, axle material that can withstand this twisting is poorly suited to the wipping action caused by a long axle. You can check this out with a racing axle manufacturer, I did. GM makes cars with axles that are two inches shorter than a stock Fiero, but they don't make any that are longer. Why? While Will thinks it's the axle's shortness that causes the breakage and I say it's the excessive length, the fact remains that the small diameter of the splined ends that causes most driveline failures. Will, thanks for the reply. It's different viewpoints that open our minds to new ideas, enen when we disagree.

That's what I meant: greater CV angle contributes to CV breakage.

There's one hell of a lot more compliance in tire sidewalls, and poly/rubber engine mounts than there is in even the long axle.

If you're worried about snapping the long axle, get rid of it. You can use the half-shaft setup from Getrag equiped Berettas with the 16 1/4" right axle shaft from an automatic W-body. That's the setup I'd have on my N* car right now if I hadn't screwed up the right exhaust manifold to such an extent that it interferes with where the CV joint would be with this setup.

Another thing you can do is not solid mount your engine. More compliance in the engine mounts means that less is necessary in the axles to absorb the same amount of shock loading.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: My experience in medical grade machineing applications where close tolerances of say +.1000/-.0000 (+one ten thousanth, minus 0)

While I disagree with other points in this post, let's point out that if you do perform medical grade MACHINING applications, and think that .1000 is one ten thousanth of an inch, please refer me away from any equipment you've worked on in the unfortunate event that I need medical assistance that utilizes your equipment.

.1000" is 1/10 (one tenth of an inch), much larger of a clearance then .0001 (one ten thousandths of an inch).

Sorry for being an @$$, but just thought I'd clear that up now.

I have a question concerning the V8 equipped Fieros. What kind of performance are they attaining in the 1/4 mile for something like a 300hp small block? LT1? TPI? etc... (E.T., MPH, 60')

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1987 Pontiac Fiero Coupe #18,838
3800 Series II SFI
4T60-E Trans
3.33 Final Drive

1987 Pontiac GTA
5.7L SuperRam MPFI
4L60-E Trans
3.73 SRD

http://dtcc.cz28.com

OWWWW!! I cant close my eyes, There so dry from reading this thread for so long. I never considered a v-8 swap until now ( and I have a pretty good idea where im gonn a get my kit from), HMMMMMM..... this thread really makes you think!

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A coward dies a thousand deaths..................A soldier dies but once.

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 06-18-2002).]

I followed this thread since it was first posted and it is full of good information. I'm not planning a v-8 conversion for my car but I do find it interesting. Archie asked that this not become a flame war and I can see it going in that direction. Its caused by this forum being "pro-archie". I too think he does good work, in fact his website was the first on the fiero that I read before I bought my car, however, anytime someone says anything that isn't pro-archie, they get jumped on. Artherd said "...you're designing your own V8 kit, and any engineer worth his salt will pretty much tell you to emulate what Archie's already done.What is it with you guys? " Why can't someone do something different? I see pictures of the Archie system with the water pump in the wheel well. That doesn't seem like the best design to me. As it says in the first post, stick to the facts. Its hard to discuss something if you will only accept that one way is the only way. This thread has run its course

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1985 Fiero GT
1998 Dodge Dakota 4x4

There's more than 1 way to change a light bulb, but the best way is to unscrew it and screw a new one in.
Now, someone can smash the bulb with a hammer, then use a potato to unscrew the bulb, then glue to new bulb to a rubber dart then use that to screw the bulb in, then use some adhesive remover to remove the glue and the dart. This method still gets the job done, but it's still easier to unscrew the bulb and screw another one in.

After trying to reinvent the V8 Fiero kit, there's this object called the wheel you can work on.

[This message has been edited by Leper (edited 06-19-2002).]

What happened with this, Archie how does it go after your last post??

Oh, I can think of a few ways to improve on the Archie swaps... maybe. They're got pretty good reliability records though!

(Archie uses an optional CSI electric waterpump that does not intrude, that is what I would pick, but don't critiquie something he's already fixed :P)

My only point is, up to this point, no one HAS done any better than V8-Archie for SBC Fiero swaps (to customers, Tom, your sweet customised car don't count ;D)

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: [BArtherd said "...you're designing your own V8 kit, and any engineer worth his salt will pretty much tell you to emulate what Archie's already done.What is it with you guys? " Why can't someone do something different? I see pictures of the Archie system with the water pump in the wheel well. That doesn't seem like the best design to me. As it says in the first post, stick to the facts. Its hard to discuss something if you will only accept that one way is the only way. This thread has run its course [/B]

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by crypto1079: While I disagree with other points in this post, let's point out that if you do perform medical grade MACHINING applications, and think that .1000 is one ten thousanth of an inch, please refer me away from any equipment you've worked on in the unfortunate event that I need medical assistance that utilizes your equipment. .1000" is 1/10 (one tenth of an inch), much larger of a clearance then .0001 (one ten thousandths of an inch). Sorry for being an @$$, but just thought I'd clear that up now.

Heh-heh, thanks, I said I could machine-never claimed to be able to type. But I did have it correctly typed out in the parenthesis. Getting dyslexic(sp) in my old age maybe. This thread has been buried for a while-what happened?

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-12-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: Artherd said "...you're designing your own V8 kit, and any engineer worth his salt will pretty much tell you to emulate what Archie's already done. What is it with you guys?" Why can't someone do something different? I see pictures of the Archie system with the water pump in the wheel well. That doesn't seem like the best design to me.

Archie has said himself in other threads that his kit has been evolving over the years. He has changed materials, changed suppliers, and changed techniques in a continuous process of refinement. This is essential to any product for its continued relevance and success. In all the time that I have spent in his shop over the past six months, out of all the cars I've seen built and all the cars that have just "dropped by", the most important thing I've seen is that very few (if any) V8 Archie swaps are the same. And if any car demonstrates the flexibility of the V8 Archie kit, mine certainly does. It is proof that you can install any Chevy V8 any way you want with his kit.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/025173.html

Dave

Still, it would be cool to see the stories conclusion.

I think Dave (crazyd) summed it up pretty well, Zumalt was in on the early phase of V8 Conversion, he didn't think of everything, certainly didn't support his customers, and didn't refine his kit to take care of the short comings that developed. But this doesn't mean that someone else couldn't improve his kit. Things are learned about all parts when exposed to real world testing and durability. It's a necessary research and development process that takes time and an understanding of how to make it better based off the real world results.

With Zumalt, everyone was left to their own R & D on a kit that lacked refinement.

There's always a better idea or mouse trap around the corner. Anyone lacking technical automotive knowledge is best off selecting a kit from someone with a long track record. The mechanical thinkers may be best off finding a kit that meets most of their expectations and refining it on their own.

Just My Opinion.

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Click to Listen!

Hey... something in this link got me thinking back to this thread:
http://www.lambobuilder.com/northstar.html

Towards the bottom of the page you'll see:

"I got my 4.6 Liter Cadillac Northstar from Gary Zumalt. I shipped my stretched cradle to his shop. He mounted the engine and returned the cradle along with a box of wiring harnesses, hoses, computer, etc that I had no idea what went where."

Now is that the same guy? Surely it is... Cant be too many of 'em in the country....
Sounds like he works in the kit business now.

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REMEMBER: stoplights synch'd for 35mph are also synch'd for 70mph.
(and for 140mph, now that I think about it.)

>>Sounds like he works in the kit business now.<<

Don't be alarmed, Dale has been building for a long time, and the Northstar aquisition is quite dated.

As far as I know Gary Zumalt of St Louis Mo. has been out of business for over two years.So why talk about his kit? It might have been great or it may have been terrible but at this point who cares?
If you want to open a discussion of which V8 kit is best, reopen the thread comparing the features of the Hi-Tech Development V8 kit, or the Shelby kit, or Garys Customs kit to V8 Archies. At least these guys are still in business.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: So why talk about his kit?

Dennis, did you even bother to read the 1st. post in this thread?

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If you want to open a discussion of which V8 kit is best,

That isn't what this thread was about.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If you want to open a discussion of which V8 kit is best, reopen the thread comparing the features of the Hi-Tech Development V8 kit, or the Shelby kit, or Garys Customs kit to V8 Archies. At least these guys are still in business.

Go ahead and re-open that thread. All of those people make copies of the Z kit & You'll find that even though all those people have Web Sites, none of them will come here to discuss it.

THIS THREAD is not the place for you to come to continue beating that old drum of yours. Take it someplace else.

Archie

i seen someone say something about other kits a few pages back, and thought i would add this.
a year or so ago i was hanging out with one of my backwoods circle-track racer friends, and we stopped at a transmission/machine shop a buddy of his owned.
This guy had a pimpin 215 CID aluminum twin turbo v8 on a bone stock `85 or `86 SE body.
he says he built it all himself, automatic with overdrive, custom computer(in the rear trunk).
I guess he just built it for shits and giggles, because he said he never bothered to race it, still had stock tires, and the only modifications to the suspension were springs, and struts.
i should ask him to build me a "kit"

Archie, There is no doubt that business was not one of Gary's strong points, along with accounting, shipping, customer service and technical help.
I thought he had got a lot of help from Pontiac with the first engine, Hot Rod said that the heads were NASCAR aluminum and the TH125C had been completly rebuilt by GM Hydramatic?
I live 1 mile from where he used to live and saw the original V8 up close, wasn't too impressed especially with twin 4 barrel carbs sticking up through the decklid.
Gary put an add in the KC STAR a few months ago about some Fiero's he had for sale (parts cars mostly). He works at a place called Custom Car Creations ( or something like that) in KC, and I can't find the phone number in the book, but I know where the place is located.
I'll try to find the phone number and post it. Let's see (in the interest of fairness) what he has to say. No flame intended for anyone, but I would be very interested to hear his side, if any. What do you think?...Paul

.

Here you go

What do the gloves and shoes do? Can use my existing gloves, or do I need to buy theirs?

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: What do the gloves and shoes do? Can use my existing gloves, or do I need to buy theirs?

HAHAHA, well just about every picture on thier website has this theme ( www.renegadehybrids.com ), my guess is that it is supposed to fill you with the impression that they have super Gucci parts and they are racer-esqe

- something like that but more likely just for eye candy.

If you ask me it's just downright TACKY.

2 days and no insight on this pump system? - other than the ghey-ness of the pic

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( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or
imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor
bastard )

Eric Nelson
Technician,
West Coast Fiero
310-305-4111

[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 04-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: 2 days and no insight on this pump system? - other than the ghey-ness of the pic

Whats gay about the pic? The gloves? My brother will be ordering there 944 conversion kit shortly....

Will it come with the gloves? Shoes? Or perhaps both?

hehe, just kiddin around man

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: 2 days and no insight on this pump system? - other than the ghey-ness of the pic

Let's see, when you post to your own thread on this Forum No one reads it & no one responds.

But, if you go highjack another thread, they still won't respond, but at least they have to read it.

Your posts to this thread are not on topic and are not welcome. We would thank you to edit your responces leave my threads alone.

Go start your own thread Eric, or go back to your own Forum.

Archie

LOL! Naw, gloves and shoes not included dammit. Maybe he could ask them to super-size it?

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: Will it come with the gloves? Shoes? Or perhaps both? hehe, just kiddin around man

[This message has been edited by Nachtzehrer6 (edited 04-12-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Let's see, when you post to your own thread on this Forum No one reads it & no one responds. But, if you go highjack another thread, they still won't respond, but at least they have to read it. Your posts to this thread are not on topic and are not welcome. We would thank you to edit your responces leave my threads alone. Go start your own thread Eric, or go back to your own Forum. Archie

As a member of this public forum I would like to know how my questions are not welcome -

anyways

Archie, any thoughts on this pump system?