I know it's a bit late in the design process, but here's a suggestion:
Look at the Isuzu trans. It has three small caps on the end of the case. If you remove these caps, you have direct access to the shift rails. I suggest you include a similar provision on your transmissions. That way, someone who's suitably capable can use solenoids or hydraulic cylinders to manipulate the shift rails directly, and implement an F1 like electronically controlled shift system.
Actually, I've been wrapped up in interiors and Carbon Fiber Interior parts the past week as well as working on a couple of F355 conversions for some folks.
Yes... been busy. No news in the past couple weeks. I'll definately let you know when something "Cracks"
DKOV -
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02:55 AM
Sep 10th, 2003
Bolt_Crank Junior Member
Posts: 3 From: Grande Prairie, Alberta Registered: Sep 2003
DKOV, how's it coming. I've been hearing about this thing for a few months now and as my car grows faster, I know my tranny is growing weaker. I'd love to someday have one of these trannies and if I could get one somehow by being a "tester" I'd probably be interested. I own a '96 grand prix with an L67 transplanted into it. The L67 runs mid 13s already and the tranny would go in easy as the '88-'96s were ready for manual trannies from the factory. -Nick
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11:13 PM
Sep 13th, 2003
Bolt_Crank Junior Member
Posts: 3 From: Grande Prairie, Alberta Registered: Sep 2003
DKOV, how's it coming. I've been hearing about this thing for a few months now and as my car grows faster, I know my tranny is growing weaker. I'd love to someday have one of these trannies and if I could get one somehow by being a "tester" I'd probably be interested. I own a '96 grand prix with an L67 transplanted into it. The L67 runs mid 13s already and the tranny would go in easy as the '88-'96s were ready for manual trannies from the factory. -Nick
it's 88 - 93's that are the easy auto to manual swap
but that just means that yours is gonna be even more special
[This message has been edited by Bolt_Crank (edited 09-14-2003).]
actually, they put the hole in the firewall for the clutch just the same as in the 88-93. Its just that they stopped making them available from 94-96. Just saying it'd be easier than installing it into a 97+ grand prix, but we still ge the benefits of testing it on an L67. Boy do I have a good setup -Nick
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12:48 AM
PFF
System Bot
Bolt_Crank Junior Member
Posts: 3 From: Grande Prairie, Alberta Registered: Sep 2003
really? weird.... if it's not the hole in the firewall, then maybe it's the place to put the pedal.... I know there was something that was changed that made 94's + harder to do...
And stock 88 GT owners would like an update as well . My first gear let go today , and joined my second gear in transmission heaven. I JUST made it home starting in third, but the car seems to have less pickup starting in 3rd. But seriously, a new transmission is a reality for me asap, and your six speed seems like the way to go for me.
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05:45 PM
Oct 1st, 2003
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
DKOV: Its probably a little late in the development schedule but... Have you guys looked into incorporating technology from the Goatley Sequential system? There was a write up a couple years back in Racecar Engineering about it. He was trying to sell it to the OEMs and I am not sure of his success. From the what the article said, it can be adapted to any type of tranny. If youre interested I have a copy of the article I can scan and email to you. Seems like that would be just the thing for a 355/360 Ferarri kit.
Brett
------------------ Brett 1988 Formula 1989 SHO
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02:50 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
No... not a BAD thing, just a hitch in the getup. Just adds time. I've already spent to much to abandon the project.
----
Toms...
Your time will come. I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before but I do have a 355 Coupe going into paint next week. It's a complete, running car with mostly OEM parts on it... lights, emblems, glass, vents, grills. Even SEATS. It also has been widened with the proper wide track supension! I have a main Dash Gauge Pod for it if you want it as well
Was planning on asking $26K for it complete with 355 Interior but if you want it with the stock I'll let it go for under $20K... YOU PICK THE COLOR
You can't build one for that... especially with all the OEM parts and the Wide Track suspension.
DKOV -
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03:23 PM
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System Bot
Tom Slick Member
Posts: 4342 From: Alvarado, TX Registered: May 2003
Sounds nice, can you cut the top off cause I really want a convertible.
oh yea, one more thing do you still what a headliner for a t-top? as soon as i get my car titled and register i will try and get it to you. does it matter that it's a non-cjb car?
tom...
quote
Originally posted by DKOV: Toms...
Your time will come. I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before but I do have a 355 Coupe going into paint next week. It's a complete, running car with mostly OEM parts on it... lights, emblems, glass, vents, grills. Even SEATS. It also has been widened with the proper wide track supension! I have a main Dash Gauge Pod for it if you want it as well
Was planning on asking $26K for it complete with 355 Interior but if you want it with the stock I'll let it go for under $20K... YOU PICK THE COLOR
You can't build one for that... especially with all the OEM parts and the Wide Track suspension.
DKOV -
[This message has been edited by Tom Slick (edited 10-09-2003).]
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07:16 PM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
I've been reading this post and am very interested in a 5 and or 6 speed... After having just totally rebuilt my 282 Getrag with new blocker rings and all new bearings (about 600 bucks worth of parts) and then having all the parts glass beaded and getting the GM special tools... My getrag works well but needs a better replacement once my 3.4 Camaro engine gets swaped for my 3400 SFI TT.
Of concern, you mentioned you are considering diferent metals and heat treates for the parts, yet previously you mentioned that you aren't hobbing (making) new gears. So how are you planning on changing the metalurgy of an off the shelf gear? I assume you are looking at using a three shaft setup to get the 6 gears in one case thats short enough to handle the power. I breifly had looking into doing this but found making the case to be to expensive. 4340 is probably my #1 choice for input shafts as the stock fiero shaft made of 4340 can handle well over 1000 Ftlbs torque with the right heat treat As to the weight of this thing.. I'd really target about 150 to 180 lbs... as i see it any more then that and you have to much weght... but on the other hand i think anyone that needs less then 500 HP capacity shouldn't complain about weight...
I too am interested in the gear ratios and VSS info... so far you've had a lot of talk and no pictures and I haven't heard anyone vouch for your progress. If you actually posted pictures and detailed information you might be able to get a pre-order together... I know I'd go get another job just to get 2500 bucks together for a 6 speed and wouldn't think twice about it if I saw some pictures.
I also am wondering how you plan to meet those price points? Also what is so tough about the bellhousing casitngs? once a mold is made they are fairly easy to make and I can't see it being that big a deal to machine them as the company you are dealing with most certainly has CNC machines capable of machining these very quickly. And I assume youre shafts are custom made to fit these gears on the? I'm assuming your production cost is about 1500 bucks and the rest covers other expenses. Please provide us with more details. I'd be curious to know whose gears you are planning to use and why you picked those. As mentioned i gave thought to using T56 gears or similar and making a 5 speed but I don't have the time nor the money to do a One-Off right now... but I can get the money to buy yours.
Also do you plan on ever making these available with straight gears and dog synchros for us real racers?
DKOV, how is the transmission coming along? I dont think the 282s will hold my N*s power for long and I want to be able to not be scared to break it every weekend.
Hey DKOV, I got a PM for ya about the headliners and those valve covers.
i'll buy one!! a 5spd will do it for me if it'll handle the power and lower my crusing rpm. of course, i'd pay more for a 6spd with out a second thought should they become available at the same time as the cash
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04:53 PM
FIERO1985 Member
Posts: 801 From: Columbus Oh, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Why not use a volkwagen auto trans. drove on the outher day and it is a 6 speed.
Volkswagen does not have a 6 speed automatic just recently they introduced a 6 speed manual though. but VW transmissions are not very trustworthy there manuals are reliable but not with a bunch of power. but the autos can bearly hold there own.
I'm begginging to wonder if this isn't a joke. I haven't heard anything more on it and no pictures. The price sounds too good to be true. I mean GM won't sell you a tranny for less the 3500 new and thats GM. I was just thinking about what it would take me to design a new race tranny from the ground up. At first it didn't seem that big a deal. I mean if you were going to designa perfromance tranny there is no need to use cone type clutches/synchros. I'd use Dog clutches/synchros just like the real trannies and straight cut gears. It'd make some noise but I like that, it would make the production easier too as you dont' need all the specailized synchro parts, cut costs...
I give this guy till christmas time then I'm gonna sit down and start making my own designs, dunno if anyone will build it but hey its good practice.
Nate
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02:04 AM
PFF
System Bot
SplineZ Member
Posts: 952 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
I understand the doubt, Nate. You've obviously not got involved in OEM level manufacturing before. You obviously don't understand. That's Okay.
I honestly didn't quite have the whole picture when I got involved either.
Did you know that it costs around a half million dollars to have a completely new tranny housing designed and cast?
Did you know that the firms that actually do that sort of work want huge volume commitments or a check up front?
Did you know that getting the cast and first design doesn't actually buy you a transmission? You actually have to go through the whole process again with the internals manufacturing.
Did you know that being lucky enough to find a firm that will manufacture BOTH the cast and the internals leaves you with only a half dozen choices, all of which are actually manufacturers of the "BIG 6"?
Did you know that many of the manufacturers won't actually build aftermarket OEM replacement trannys due to the fact it competes with their primary customers, GM, Ford and Chrysler? No matter WHAT the cost.
Here's the reality about cost... I could absolutely have the castings made for the 5 and 6 speeds and start selling them immediately... for your cost of about $6000 each or more. In which case nobody would buy them.
Completing and agreement with an EOM manufacturer will give us the ability to release trannys as that much lower cost due to volumes. Of course, that volume is also the hang up... they want ALOT. 500K trannys at $2000 each is only a Million Bucks. I'll put in half if you will.
So, compromises must be made. Hopefully they'll give a little and meet us half way. We'll have to bite the bullet and agree to some huge commitments too. Take the risk.
In the end... you all get your new tranny and walk away, not even aware that the company that brought them to you is literally risking bankruptsy and total loss to deliver them.
Seriously, if anyone, ANYONE developes and delivers a tranny like this to the market, I'll be the first to congratulate them and support them. That way I can stop dealing with them and save all my own money.
That aside... Nate, if you, or any one else, is prepared to pay for a $6000+ tranny... let me know, I'll get a manual 6-speed to your right away.
well i wouldn't pay $6000, but i would pay more than the GM replacement prices for a 6spd tranny that would outperform the OEM one. that's a no-brainer in my opinion.
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01:38 PM
FieroNate Member
Posts: 374 From: Fleetwood, PA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
First off I'd like to mention that I'm pleased to see a reponse so quickly, considering none of my other posts got any feedback. My last post was kind of one of those directed to provoke a reponse so to speak, my appologies.
I actually have more of an idea of what you are dealing with then you think, I have been doing prototyping on my own of a small turbine engine and trying to get manufacturers to help me produce the final version (still in prottype testing). I also realize what can be done and how quickly if you have the correct software and knowledge at hand, for instance as a student I have access to some of the best computer software and analysis packages out there (learning them and dealing with windows is anothe story...) anyway... back to the issue at hand.
I'd have to question the price of the castings, are these investment castings? (i'd hope so. I have done my own aluminum castings I have been fortunate enough to know a casting engineer who showed me alot of things about aluminum casting and even have access to casting equipment which I use for small prototypes. The cost isn't really where most people thinkg, the cost is in the computer design of the mold to give you the quality you need, placing the insulators at the right places to avoid casting voids... etc... Most shops that can do that kind of casting quality have bigger fish to fry so to speak. There are a few shops on the east coast that do that kind of work in small numbers (hence the reason CNC is so big in the racing world).
I'm not really sure why its sucha big deal to have more then one place make the parts. Having everything made in one spot avoids a logistics headache, however do they assemble them? One of my previous questions addressed materials used and processes, I'd assume your shafts are forged not billet.
For my 6000 you would get a CNC case made of either 6061 or 7075 billet aluminum (yes this is expensive to do) I would not use the cone and cup style as most people I would target who want 500+ HP race these things and would want the dog synchros like most high end racing trannies use, from all my knowledge they are simpler to build.
I raised the issue because as a student I take on such projects regularly for something to do (yes I'm crazy)... right now I'm working on organizing for a Formula SAE team,working on some internal engine parts so projects such as this are not anything new.
On that note I'd like to say keep up the good work, but as an engineer and potential buyer I'd like to know some more about the technical side of things. Unfortunatly in today's market people want to have their cake and eat it to.
Everyone wants a car that makes 650 HP, gets 40 MPG, and will go 200K under race conditions for the cost of a new bike. (yes this is an exageration but it makes the point)... Its hard to spend your hard earned cash to develop something when you aren't even sure you'll ever make any of your money back. DKOV you know exactly what I'm talking about. As an engineer I feel more confident in knowing materials selections or at least the design criteria, whos parts are used (ie. where can I buy replacement parts down the road when I do wear something out).
The more you can tell people the easier it is to sell them on it. I would love to know what the main shafts are made of, how you get around the torque loading on the teeth, type and compostition of the blocker rings, the type and quality of bearings (timken, fafnir, national, are they precision bearings or just regular off the shelf), what kind of rma number are the gears finished at, are they 4340 billet gears or forged, do you have helical cut/spiral cut gears or straight spur gears, has the tranny been FEA tested and what kind of cyclic loading assumptions were made.
I know GM can make a tranny for 1000, but consdering that GM hasn't put any decent 5 speeds in their 3.4+ Front drive cars, it makes me wonder why you should succeed and GM hasn't, surely there is market for 5 speeds, they put them in the Cavaliers, the new cadillacs.
But key cars such as the Grand Prix and Grand AM whose target market includes kids and adults who like to play hard; doesn't include a 5 speed. Previously this was because they were unreliable (hence the 284 Getrag) and there wasn't a market need for the 5 speeds, but they are making a come back.
Maybe you should approach GM with your idea see if they will buy it or invest in it. I'm sure they'd love to have a tranny where all they had to do is build it and test it, see if it meets their specs, then put it in production. They still make cars with the same 3.4 and 3.8s that are front drive that people probably want 5 speeds for. My guess is that GM is about to discontinue the 3.8 and 3.4 (within the next 5-10 years).
Do your manufacturers make cranks? I'd love to see a 5140 3.1 Crank made, of course I seem to have a nack for breaking things and build projects to high abuse standards, I'm not sure how many other people do this.
I'd love to see a posted CAD model of the tranny just to get an idea what you did.
My appologies for being longwinded, especially the poor readers of this list who have dealt with my previous posts, and want nothing more then to get their hands on a 5 or 6 speed.
BTW, I have no current plans to build a tranny, designing one would be just a way to waste some time over my christmas break. I have another project that I've invested most of my money in which I'm attempting to have produced. But keep us updated and drooling and I'm sure you'll sell them. I'll be waiting for one. I have a 3400 SFI that will be getting a set of corrillo H beams and ross pistons once I find a suitable crank, to take the boost I plan on running so I need something to put that to the ground.
Nate
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01:56 PM
FieroNate Member
Posts: 374 From: Fleetwood, PA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
BTW in case anyone missed the overall message in my longwindedness.
I want one!!! LOL... I'd also like to see more specs, kinda give me some more incentive to set asside the money and not spend it on my engine right now....
Hey DKOV, any ETA on this tranny? Six months? 2 years down the road? Could you let us know? Sorry if we all seem impatient. These Fiero transmissions are falling apart and the expense of repairing or replacing them has now past the value of the car. That's why we all want as much info as you can give. Thanks in advance. Happy Holidays.
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02:31 PM
Dec 3rd, 2003
FieroNate Member
Posts: 374 From: Fleetwood, PA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
(the sound of me tapping my fingers on the home row!!)
I still have one question. If money is an issue why would you contract a company to produce two models both targeted at the same market and both probably expensive? It doesn't make sense to me.
If your gonna keep us waiting at least my gues apperances on the forum once in a while keep your audience (read customers) happy and informed.
Well I hope to see some preliminary pictures soon if possible just to further wet my appitite.
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02:26 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
After consecutive trips to Atlanta, Texas and a week celbrating Thanksgiving in Eastern Washington, I'm back not and can drop in to say hello...
Hello
As most of you know, these trannies are not the only thing I've been working on. We are also finished with many of our Carbon Fiber and Carbon Kevlar molds for various Fiero parts and have started inventory on some of the parts. Others are still being finished as well. The headliners were the first to pop out of the molds and have been doing pretty well this week. Look pretty cool too...
As for the trannies... I am working on the "political" side of the issue with our current manufacturer. In other words, trying to convince them that the demand justifies the costs and looking for them to share that with us. I've told you all this before... but it is still the case.
These things don't happen quickly. Certainly not as quickly as I thought they would. Originally, they seemed only more than eager to help with the costs and the new bellhousings but that was the engineering staff, not the "bean counters" who see things completely differently. When it comes down to the decision maker, they listen to the bean counter and that's where the deal hits a wall.
So... my strategy is to continue working with the engineering people and getting them to go to their bosses directly, hopefully bypassing the bean counters, and planting the bug directly. Hopefully, the "energy" of the deal will get through and will sway the decision in our favor. Politics.
That aside, money IS an issue... seems the only other way to get around the problem is to commit to purchasing an inventory of many thousands of trannies to get the price down.
Otherwise, we are looking at a VERY expensive tranny.
It being the Holidays, the odds of getting results before the 1st of the year and THIN... very thin.
I wouldn't expect any real progress until January at the soonest.
Not good news... sorry.
I could just give up too... that would be easier and cheaper for me. It's a thought.
Best,
DKOV -
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01:07 PM
SplineZ Member
Posts: 952 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
Those headliners are awsome looking! Please tell me you have one with a sunroof cutout! damn! I wish i had a steady job, ahah.. then i'd buy one right now
, and joined my second gear in transmission heaven. I JUST made it home starting in third, but the car seems to have less pickup starting in 3rd. But seriously, a new transmission is a reality for me asap, and your six speed seems like the way to go for me.
