Fieromaster88 has one of the Crane cams you listed in his 3.2. It has 427 intake lift and 454 exhaust lift. He also has 1.6 rockers on top of that. Contrary to popular belief, he has no idle problems or brake problems either. Definitely would not pass emission though. The HT 3.4 comes with this same cam and i know Twin Lakes has installed this engine in a couple of Fieros as well. You'll definitely need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator though.
------------------ Activities Director N.I.F.E.
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09:54 PM
Oct 20th, 2003
opm2000 Member
Posts: 1347 From: Versailles, Ky USA Heart of the Bluegrass Registered: Dec 2000
Orief - nice link there, thanks for the direction. Yes, I wondered about your particular cam, and of course your build up is something else. But it's a bit more than what I envision right now, although I'd like to know more about it.
What I've got is a real nice running 3.4 that I just can't help think would benefit from a new exhaust system, an amplified ignition system (MSD, coil, etc), maybe Darrell's porting treatment of the entire intake system, maybe the pintle type 19# injectors (I'm using 3.4's now just fine) and a more agressive cam.
Dave - I'd like to hear more about Fieromaster88, is that his PFF screename?
Currently, I am in the process of a 3.4L conversion, listed below are the parts that I have purchased for this conversion. Majority of the people if not carbing it will go with the 2030 CAM.
Summit Racing is the BEST source for the CAM. ARI would be the second best place to get it. 2030 specs: . PowerMax Hydraulic Lifter Camshafts for Computer Controlled Vehicles Application Series & Grind Number Mid and upper range torque and HP improver for cars, especially Camaros, S-10 pick-up's, Blazers, Jimmy's, etc., and all perf. applications. Basic RPM 1500-4500 PowerMax2030 Cam Specifications Degrees Duration @ .050 Int./Exh. Degrees Advertised Duration Int./Exh. Degree Lobe Separation Open/Close @.050" Cam Lift Int./Exh. Lash Hot Int./Exh. Gross Lift Int./Exh. 204214 264274 109 (3) 2740 (6) .000.000 .423.423 Valve Train Components Camshaft 254122 *a,b a For 1981-89 applications. b Cam and Lifter Kit, includes installation lubricants. Lifters 99286-12 * Valve Springs 99848-12 Standard diameter valve springs, no machining required. Retainers 99915-12 * Valve Stem Locks 99041-1 99097-1 e e Machined steel, heat treated. Pushrods 25621-12 For cast iron inline-valve cylinder heads, heat treated, for use with pushrod guideplates. Gold Race Rockers 25750-12 g25759-12 h g 1.5 ratio, narrow body (not self-aligning), with special 10mm x 1.50 bottom x 3/8" x 24 top rocker arm studs included. h 1.6 ratio, narrow body (not self-aligning), with special 10mm x 1.50 bottom x 3/8" x 24 top rocker arm studs included. * This product is applicable only to pre-1966 California and pre-1968 federally certified passenger cars. It is also applicable to non-emission controlled trucks and similar vehicles. It is not applicable or intended for use on any emission controlled vehicles operated on highways or roads.
3.4L Conversion - 2003 / 2004 Item Description Part # Cost Vendor Comments 1. Powermax 2030 Camshaft and lifter kit 254122 $169.95 Summit Racing CRN-254122 2. Valve Springs 99848-12 $64.99 Summit Racing CRN-99848-12 3. Retainers 99915-12 $50.39 Summit Racing CRN-99915-12 4. Valve Stems Locks 99041-1 $9.50 Summit Racing CRN-99041-1 5. Pushrods 25621-12 $98.69 Summit Racing CRN-25621-12 6. Gold Race Rockers - 1.6 ratio 25759-12 $318.95 Summit Racing CRN-25759-12 7. Adj. Fuel Pressure Regulator - Holley 512-501 $83.95 Summit Racing HLY-512-501 8. 17 lb. Fuel Injectors - Accel 150617 $173.69 Summit Racing ACC-150617 9. Head Stud Bolt Kit 233-4003 $75.39 Summit Racing ARP-233-4003 10. Exhaust Insulating 11002 $56.70 Summit Racing THE-11002 11. Trans Cooler Frame Mount Kit 1003 $34.95 Summit Racing PRM-1003 12. Air / Fuel Ratio Meter 3375 $51.95 Summit Racing ATM-3375 13. Super Cam Lube 99003-1 $8.50 Summit Racing CRN-99003-1 14. Water Pump 130-1040 $34.89 NAPA 15. V6 Control Module 51052 $34.95 The Fiero Store 16. Fiero GT 3rd Brake Light Insert 50850 $12.95 The Fiero Store 17. Port Middle and Lower Plenum N/A $325.00 Darrell Morse 18. True Roller Double - Cloyes 220-9-3137 $94.99 Jegs 02209-3137 Chevy V6, 2.8L, 1980-91 19. Dist. Remanufacturer 30-1633 $112.99 Auto Zone Lifetime Warr. 20. Cap & Rotor DR2012G $13.95 Auto Zone 21. Fel-Pro Gasket Set E1S1100PT $67.27 City Motor Supply 22. V6 Racing Stainless Steel Valve Set Ext/Int 52875 $169.95 The Fiero Store 23. Silver/Gray "Fiero GT" Mats 50210A $79.95 The Fiero Store 24. 88 3.4L A/C Bracket N/A $28.00 Rodney Dickman 25. Oil Pressure Fitting N/A $3.00 Rodney Dickman 26. 3.4L Starter Jig Kit N/A $59.00 Rodney Dickman 27. Vac Lines N/A $79.00 Rodney Dickman 28. O-Ring Dist. N/A $3.00 Rodney Dickman 29. '88 V6 Poly Engine Mount $65.00 West Coast Fiero 30. Trans. Mount Poly Left $65.00 West Coast Fiero 31. Trans. Mount Poly Right $65.00 West Coast Fiero 32. Port Heads ? Est. $120 33. Heads - 3 angle job est. $120 34. 3.4L Short Block Assembly est. $772 City Motor Supply Remanufactured Short Block 35.
Sub. $2,511.49 Parts already purchased and on the 2.8L motor 2001 - 2002 Item Description Part # Cost Vendor Comments 1. Oil Pump - High Volume M95HV $57.86 City Motor Supply Melling High Volume Oil Pump 2. Oil Pump Screen 95S3 $7.46 City Motor Supply 3. Fel-Pro Gasket Set E1S1100PT $66.24 City Motor Supply 4. Magnecore 8.5mm Spark Plug Wires 6538 $91.00 VSV Performance KV85 8.5 mm 5. TV Cable 10042208 $52.63 Buz Post Pontiac 6. 84-'88 Power Stat - 160 deg 52372 $16.95 The Fiero Store 7. 85-'88 176 deg Fan Switch 51408 $44.95 The Fiero Store 8. 85-'88 V6 Control Module 51052 $34.95 The Fiero Store 9. Ignition Coil - GM Baster 8226 $38.95 Summit Racing MSD-8226 10. EGR Valve Gasket 72554 $1.99 Auto Zone 11. EGR Valve Gasket 72554 $1.99 Auto Zone 12. Oxygen Sensor DEL-AFS20 $38.99 Dick's Auto Supply 13. Temp Sender STI TS168 $26.53 Dick's Auto Supply 14. Air Temp Sensor - Air Filter Canster STI-AX1 $32.99 Dick's Auto Supply 15. V6 Power Pulley Kit 52304 $79.95 The Fiero Store 16. V6 Adj. Fuel Pressure Regulator 52602 $79.95 The Fiero Store 17. '88 Front Upper Outlet Hose 52321 $9.39 The Fiero Store 18. '88 Front Lower Outlet Hose 52333 $9.39 The Fiero Store 19. '88 Rear Upper Outlet Hose 52350 $7.89 The Fiero Store 20. '88 Rear Lower Inlet Hose 52337 $12.95 The Fiero Store 21. '88 Inlet Intermediate Hose 52351 $10.95 The Fiero Store 22. V6/60 deg. Windage Tray N/A $15.99 e-bay 23. Bore V6 Throttle Body & Plenum - 57mm N/A $120.00 Darrell Morse TB Bored to 57mm
What I've got is a real nice running 3.4 that I just can't help think would benefit from a new exhaust system, Darrell's porting treatment of the entire intake system, maybe the pintle type 19# injectors (I'm using 3.4's now just fine) and a more agressive cam.
Dave - I'd like to hear more about Fieromaster88, is that his PFF screename?
That's some good ideas you have listed above for more power. I would think the 19's would be a bit overkill though. I wouldn't think that you'll need those with what you've got listed above. If you start going radical then that's a different story. No matter what you do to mod this engine, consider the Holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator as a must have item. It will help compensate for the changes you make to the motor. Darrels stuff in particular will help out your engine nicely. A good cam is also essential. That 2030 cam is really not worth the effort in my opinion. I would only recomend that cam if emissions are a concern. The bigger engine does need better breathing for sure so any porting and exhaust mods can help it a lot. After all, it's trying to breath through an intake that was designed for the 2.8. Fieromaster88 is a forum name yes. He doesn't read the forum as often now but he's still on here. <edit for typo>
[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-20-2003).]
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10:11 AM
Oct 21st, 2003
opm2000 Member
Posts: 1347 From: Versailles, Ky USA Heart of the Bluegrass Registered: Dec 2000
I wonder how that compares to whatever is in the stock 3.4 right now?
The camshaft in the stock 3.4L from a Camaro/Firebird is the Economy cam shaft. Which is smaller than the stock Fiero cam. (.387/.390) The cam in the 3.4HT engine which is GM's crate engine is .427/.454
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner.
You are two cam above the 2030, you are about the same as the 270-2H cam see below: Good idle, daily usage and off road, towing, performance and fuel efficiency, increased compression ratio and gearing advised, 2600-3000 cruise RPM, 8.75 to 10.5 compression ratio advised. Basic RPM 2000-5000
You have the same Deg Adv, but your duration is 6 deg. more than the 2030 cam. your exhaust valve lift is also greater than what is on the 2030. In conclusion; your cam is made for not using the fiero computer but with emissions. You will get a slightly more hp out of the motor than what I am using.
This cam is excellant for the carb set-up.
Here in Texas, I can not go pass the 2030 cam due to the state's high emission testing.
Dave - If not the 2030, then what? I wonder how that compares to whatever is in the stock 3.4 right now?
I would use the bigger Crane cam like Fieromaster88 has or possibly even the next step up from that one. There was a few guys on the Fiero list that were using that cam the Fiero store used to sell with 480 lift in their 2.8's. They reported a choppy idle but the cars ran and were definitely quicker. I only bring those up to dispel the old myth that the Fieros computer can't stand a big cam. Like i said though; i personally would use the bigger Crane (same one found in the HT 3.4). Then again, knowing me, i'd probably go bigger then that even but i'm mad for power and i have no emission testing here. Obviously if emissons are a concern, the 2030 would be about as big as you can go.
The stock 3.4 cam specs are: intake duration: 195 deg., exhaust dur: 201 deg., lobe sep: 109, intake lift: 394, exh lift: 409. Savagery found this info on a website and it shows that the 3.4 is smaller then the stock 2.8 cam but i wonder if this chart is accurate. I'm not disputing that the 3.4 cam is smaller but i'm just wondering if this info is correct or not. If you compare the stock 2.8 cam to the info i listed above on the 3.4 cam it's only smaller but about one number. Kind of wondering if this wasn't just a typo or not. Does anyone else have the stock 3.4 cam numbers to confirm mine? I'd like to know for sure if these numbers i listed are 100% accurate or not. For comparison here's the stock 2.8 660-HO cams specs: intake dur: 196 deg, exhaust dur: 203 deg, intake lift: 394, exh lift: 410. Notice how each number is only off by one or two. If the 3.4 info i have is accurate, it's interesting how small of a difference there is in the cams. Can't imagine there being much difference in power of characteristics between the two cams. I wonder why they changed it at all.
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01:08 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Kind of wondering if this wasn't just a typo or not. Does anyone else have the stock 3.4 cam numbers to confirm mine? I'd like to know for sure if these numbers i listed are 100% accurate or not.
The .387/.390 lifts are what I measured on the cam I pulled out of my 3.4L from a 1994 Firebird. I have not seen any specs as to what the cam is/should be. I am only going by what I measured. (It mic'd out as .258/.260 which with the stock 1.5 rockers comes out to .387/.390 total lift at the valve.)
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01:54 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oct 22nd, 2003
opm2000 Member
Posts: 1347 From: Versailles, Ky USA Heart of the Bluegrass Registered: Dec 2000
The camshaft in the stock 3.4L from a Camaro/Firebird is the Economy cam shaft. Which is smaller than the stock Fiero cam. (.387/.390) The cam in the 3.4HT engine which is GM's crate engine is .427/.454
12363220 Camshaft This performance flat tappet hydraulic camshaft is used in the new 3.4-liter engine conversion package (P/N 12363230) and is also applicable to 2.8-liter and 3.1-liter engines. Designed to increase mid-range torque and horsepower, this camshaft is ideal for daily performance usage. The duration at .050" lift (intake/exhaust) is 204º/216º, while the valve lift is .427"/.454". The basic RPM range is 1500-4500, and the lobe separation is 107º.
Technical Notes: Use with valve spring P/N 12363215 and retainer P/N 12363216.
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06:23 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Ok guys, I'm taking notes. With this "HT3.4" cam, I gather I could stick with the stock springs and rockers? Or would it be manditory to go with 1.6 rockers and etc.?
Is the HT3.4 using heads, valves, springs just like on our 2.8 & '93-'94 3.4's?
What brought all of this up for me was when I had the opportunity to see & hear, & chase Chester & Elvira's blue Fiero. All I can say is it is truely inspirational. I know it is a modified 2.8, but I'm fairly sure it uses a 2030 cam & 1.6 rockers. And like I said earlier, my 3.4 runs just fine, but now I kinda feel like it would really respond to the right "encouragements".
The 3.4L HT is just a very similar re-badged PowerMax H-260-2 cam. See below: PowerMax Hydraulic Lifter Camshafts for Emissions Controlled Vehicles without Computer Application Series & Grind Number Good idle, daily usage and off road, towing, economy, also mild turbocharged, 2200-3000 cruise RPM, 8.0 to 9.5 compression ratio advised. Basic RPM 1500-4500 PowerMax H-260-2replacing: HMV-260-2 Cam Specifications Degrees Duration @ .050 Int./Exh. Degrees Advertised Duration Int./Exh. Degree Lobe Separation Open/Close @.050" Cam Lift Int./Exh. Lash Hot Int./Exh. Gross Lift Int./Exh. 204216 260272 112 (5) 2945 (9) .000.000 .427.454 Valve Train Components Camshaft 253901 *253902 *b b Cam and Lifter Kit, includes installation lubricants. Lifters 99286-12 * Valve Springs 99848-12 Standard diameter valve springs, no machining required. Retainers 99915-12 * Valve Stem Locks 99041-1 99097-1 e e Machined steel, heat treated. Pushrods 25621-12 For cast iron inline-valve cylinder heads, heat treated, for use with pushrod guideplates. Gold Race Rockers 25750-12 g25759-12 h g 1.5 ratio, narrow body (not self-aligning), with special 10mm x 1.50 bottom x 3/8" x 24 top rocker arm studs included. h 1.6 ratio, narrow body (not self-aligning), with special 10mm x 1.50 bottom x 3/8" x 24 top rocker arm studs included.
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06:46 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Ok guys, I'm taking notes. With this "HT3.4" cam, I gather I could stick with the stock springs and rockers? Or would it be manditory to go with 1.6 rockers and etc.?
There is no such thing as "manditory" use of 1.6 rockers. The 1.6 rockers are used to increase lift without changing the cam. It is usually better to get a larger cam than use 1.6 rockers. Unless you need the high lift but want to cut back on duration.
As an example: The 3.4HT cam is .427/.454. This is with 1.5 stock rockers. If you bought a set of Comp Cams roller tipped rockers which are 1.52, Your new lift would be .433/.460 Now replace the stock ones with 1.6 rockers arms and you now have .456/.484 lift. If you use the stock rockers and used the Crane 272 cam, You would have about the same lift as the 260 cam and 1.6 rockers. Difference is The duration is more accurate for the lift on the 272, where the 260/1.6, the duration is slightly shorter for the higher lift. If you want the higher lift and to keep the duration shorter to aid in the idle vacuum level for the MAP sensor, Then the 260 with 1.6 may be prefered. From a power stand point the lift/duration of a specific cam is usually better when they are matched (duration/lift).
Hope this explains things a little better.
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08:52 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41113 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Here's another slant on this situation. I have a rebuilt 3.4 with the stock <yawn> Camaro cam. If I change anything internal to the engine, it voids my warranty. I'm not comfortable doing that just yet, so a cam change is out of the question.
Plan "B" is to install the Comp Cams roller tip 1.6 rockers. Using Oreif's figures, that should give me .412/.416 lift. Not a huge improvement but better than nada, and easy enough to undo in a hurry if need be, without leaving any evidence that it was messed with.
Is there a 'down side' to installing the 1.6 rockers? If I understand it correctly, this will place the pushrod just a tad closer to the rocker stud. (Right?) Are the notches in the guide plate deep enough to accommodate this? Will the additional force placed on the cam and lifters be detrimental?
Would there be much of a performance improvement? Would I lose a great deal of bottom end? (That's one thing I like about my 3.4, now. It's got great low end. Especially through the automatic.)
Sorry if these questions sound inane. There's no substitute for knowing what you're doing. I don't. Yet.
Thanks!
------------------ Raydar
88 3.4 coupe. 17s, cut springs 'n all.
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09:22 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
The only downside to 1.6 rockers over 1.5 rockers is the 1.6 rockers put a little more load on the push rod & lifter. just a leverage thing, the same lift on the cam is going to make more valve movement.
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09:31 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
As Pyrthian says the angle difference causes a slightly higher load. Also the pushrod guides do wear slightly more. But not enough to cause any problems driving the car 100K miles. I would suggest using the Comp Cams Magnum (heavy duty) push rods. They are stronger and provide slighly better oiling so the increased load won't matter. They are about $24.00 from www.northernautoparts.com
I agree with absolutely everything oreif has said above so far. I'd only like to add that, if it were me, i would use the Crane Cam and use the matching springs they recomend with the cam. Do not use stock springs. I believe the HT 3.4 has better springs then stock for the increased lift of it's cam where as a stock 3.4 camaro engine would use the same springs as the Fiero came with. I'm sure you'll be able to find the Crane much cheaper then the GM version anyway. Certainly wouldn't hurt to use the whole Crane upgrade with the springs too like the locks, retainers, and etc. Having a matching set of valve train stuff will keep everything under warrenty and work together better. Although i do agree with oreif i also agree with radars thinking. Using the 1.6 rockers is an easy way to make a little bit more power and if things don't work well or there's some kind of problem you can remove them far easier then a whole cam. Very hard choice here as oreif is correct that it's better to use the bigger cam with stock ratio rockers then it is to just add bigger rockers. In the end it will be a personal choice on your part which any cam choice should be anyway. You should take into account what the car is going to be used for and chose the best cam for your needs. I would think that the trans should also be taken into account. An auto would probably be less likely to be happy with a big cam then a stick would be. In my opinion, i think the car would run fine with the bigger Crane cam. There were several people on the Fiero list that ran the 280 cam the Fiero store used to sell in their 2.8's. This thing had 480 lift intake and exhaust. They reported a choppy idle but the car ran fine and was quick. If that's true then there's no reason the bigger (454 int. 484 exh) Crane cam wouldn't work. There's no doubt at all that the 260 Crane does work in a Fiero though so there's piece of mind there i suppose. Yikes, originally i had intended that to be short. Guess i shouldn't have said "id only like to add."
[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-23-2003).]
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11:00 AM
Oct 24th, 2003
Raydar Member
Posts: 41113 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
So are you guys saying that running the Crane 272 cam with the computer is ok? Will it through a code, or have any problems with fueling and what not??
Just to let you know, I live in MN and no emmisions testing up here, yay.
Eric
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04:54 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
So are you guys saying that running the Crane 272 cam with the computer is ok? Will it through a code, or have any problems with fueling and what not??
Just to let you know, I live in MN and no emmisions testing up here, yay.
Eric
It won't throw a code but some have experienced the choppy/hunting idle. If idle is choppy/hunting you can use a MAP sensor from a 1991 Camaro V-8. These plug right in to the the Fiero harness and seem to be able to read the slightly lower vacuum associated with the higher lift. You can also use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to fine tune the fuel. This would allow you to adjust for optimum air/fuel ratio and give you the highest gains. You can use Darrell Morse's bored throttle body and port the exhaust manifolds to get better flow. All these will allow you to get the most out of the higher lift cam.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-04-2004).]
