Just in case anyone would be interested, for future build-ups, the Jim Butler Performance (JBP) aluminum Poncho block is due out around the first of the year. Nice guy, loves to talk about Pontiac motors! He believes in Pontiac motors that rev (7500 and up)!!!

perk

I am trading a few left over small block chevy parts to have my tranny rebuilt. I am trading my Archie kit for a Nasty little rebuild, converter and $600.I probably would have trouble getting $600 for the kit, let alone all the other pretty go fast stuff. My motor is at the machine shop gettting the works. 1974 400 pontiac .30 off the deck, .30 forged.arp main studs and rod bolts. 4x 2.11 heads.magged etc... for $300 all the machine work and he threw in the forge .030 overs for $30!!! Its like christmas!!!!!

Motor is ready for pickup tommorow on the 9th. Trannsmission is ready for pickup also!!!! its time to start putting it together!!! pontiac 400 and a th425!!!!!!!! this is going to be sick!!!!!

What's your plan for the starter?

Are you going reversed or conventional?

perk

quote Originally posted by breakneck88: Ihave to find a new motor! The 2nd one i was going to get was destroyed too... Any for sale near P.A.?????pontiac v8 that is.

I've got a Pontiac 428 on the engine stand in my garage. Been there for years. Its all in tack down to the starter and water pump.
I pulled it out of a 65 Grand Prix that ran. The intake and quadrajet are out on loan but I can get them back.
And "YES" I'm in PA 30 miles west of Lancaster PA. If interested email me at h2ospoon@hotmail.com
I'm tired of looking at it and I don't have the heart to shoe-horn it into my Fiero.

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As for the starter, ARE YOU READY FOR THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! PONTIAC 166tooth, OLDSMOBILE 166tooth!!!! AND TO MAKE IT EVEN BETTER!!!!! OLDS AND PONTIAC STARTERS CARRY THE SAME PART NUMBERS!!!! SO I AM GOING TO LOOK INTO AN OLDS 166TOOTH STARTER FOR A TH425! BECAUSE THE TH425 USES A TOTALLY DIFERENT STARTER FROM THE STANDARD VERTICALLY MOUNTED ONE!! THE OLDS STARTER IS SET UP FOR THE HORIZONTAL BOLTS!!!!! tHE TH425 USES A TH400 CONVERTER SO EVERYTHING SHOULD WORK FINE. AS FOR AXLE CLEARENCE, THE 3.75 STROKE OF THE 400 PONTIAC IS MUCH SMALLER THAN THAT OF THE CADI 500CI. SO ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL AND CRANKSHAFT CENTERLINES BEING WHAT THEY ARE,,, IT SHOULD WORK! ALSO MOST PONTIAC V8 MOTORS CAME STANDARD WITH WINDAGE TRAYS!.. i JUST PICKED UP BOTH MY MOTOR AND TRANNY TODAY!!!!! I NEED PUSHRODS,.030 RINGS, AND LIFTERS. TORQUE CONVERTER AND AXLES!!! IVE GOT PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING ELSE.

quote Originally posted by fiero86SE28: I've got a Pontiac 428 on the engine stand in my garage. Been there for years. Its all in tack down to the starter and water pump. I pulled it out of a 65 Grand Prix that ran. The intake and quadrajet are out on loan but I can get them back. And "YES" I'm in PA 30 miles west of Lancaster PA. If interested email me at h2ospoon@hotmail.com I'm tired of looking at it and I don't have the heart to shoe-horn it into my Fiero.

A 65 428? It wasn't the original Grand Prix engine was it? I don't think the 428 came out until 66 at least. I thought 389's and 421's were in the 65's. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Sounds great breakneck88. I hope I have the same luck with the TH325-4L. I have been shopping around for the tranny and parts. I hope to have one and start the swap soon too.

perk

quote Originally posted by Formula88: A 65 428? It wasn't the original Grand Prix engine was it? I don't think the 428 came out until 66 at least. I thought 389's and 421's were in the 65's. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I pulled that engine over 10 years ago. The car could of been a 65 or 66 I forget. But the engine is a 428 by the numbers, etc. I used to have a "421" in my 67 GTO. When I found this 428 I was
hoping to find another GTO and drop it in. Anyway I'm ready to unload this 428.
The car also had 8-Lug wheels which is why I inquired about it in the first place. The 428 was a bonus. The owner said I could pick it clean for 200 bucks.

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fiero86SE28 you have a pm

Breakneck88...Are you doing a standard or reverse rotation swap?

quote Originally posted by breakneck88: Ihave to find a new motor! The 2nd one i was going to get was destroyed too... Any for sale near P.A.?????pontiac v8 that is.

Over here in the summer time there is a huge swap meet in Canfield Ohio that has some amazing deals on engines, bare and complete. If you can wait till summer I would suggest that, if you need any info on it I could ge it for you, good luck in your searc.,I too am planning this swap at sometime, and am interested in how your approach with this swap will be.

OH10fiero, I thought you fell off a cliff somewhere

perk

My dad's 67 GTO had a 428 in it. The dealer did tell him that he got it from another dealership in pontiac and it had an optional motor in it, but everyone says the motor didn't get put in those cars. He bought the car new with like 2 miles on it.

Steve

GM never put a 428 in a GTO, it must have come from a shop that did the swap. This has gone on for years and will for many more... but bottom line, GM never sent one out of its doors that way.

Rob

As for the reverse rotation vs. standard pulley forward... I would like to see if i can gain the clearence for the flipped dif. and the oil pan! the problem is a pontiac oil pan is wider than a chevy. allthough i really only plan on cruising and 1/4 mile, i would ultimately wish to do the reverse rotation. But its too cold to get a friend out there to help me swing things around... I cant find a toronado/cadillac starter!!!! I thought i would have to trim the ear of the back of my block but it seems to be able to clear the inboard side of the trans.....

Breakneck88....I bought my TH425 from a guy in OK. He was gonna use a pontiac engine with it but never finished it. He sent me the tranny and alot of other stuff. He sent an oil pan that I believe was from a Pontiac with the bottom of the eldo pan grafted (welded) to it. If you want, I will take a pic of it and email it to you, you pay the shipping and it's yours.

Finally got PIP to work

Here is a Pontiac engine in a Fiero

Rob

quote Originally posted by breakneck88: As for the reverse rotation vs. standard pulley forward... I would like to see if i can gain the clearence for the flipped dif. and the oil pan! the problem is a pontiac oil pan is wider than a chevy...

Hmmmm, I was just poking around thinking abuot what I am doing and noticed this on Rockcrawl's site:

The differential housing then needs to be rotated 180 deg to an upside-down position to make the axles turn the oposite direction. This also places the pinion shaft below the axle centerline, effectively lowering the engine..."

Since Pontiac's already have a pretty long stroke, I am not so sure this would work. It would push the intermediate shaft closer to the crank. Cardealer's method of reversing the rotation of the input shaft and tranny would though. Curious to see what his new setup is.

Thanks for the pic qwikgta. Do you know anything else about the car?

perk

Perk,
I have rotated the diff on my setup, it doesn't change the location of the axles much, the pinion gear is almost on the centerline of the ring gear. It is not offset like it is on, say, a standard GM 10 or 12 bolt rearend. I don't know how long a pontiac engine is compared to a sbc bit on my setup the intermediate axle shaft that passes under the engine is beneath a main cap not under the rods. Keep in mind also that the caddy engines had a monster stroke compared to a sbc (i am using a 327 (3.25" stroke)) and they cleared the shaft. Did you see my post about that oilpan above? It's not the prettiest pan I ever saw but it might be worth it to you for the price of shipping just to see what it looks like.

quote Originally posted by TONY_C: ...Did you see my post about that oilpan above? It's not the prettiest pan I ever saw but it might be worth it to you for the price of shipping just to see what it looks like.

Hey Tony, funny you should mention that - I just emailed you about it today. I got the email link from your post here in this thread, is it the right addy? I thought maybe breakneak88 or someone had already snatched it up but emailed you just to see. Could you email me a pic of it?

Thanks for the info on the flipped diff. That's encouraging. The 350 I am using to set the car up has a 3.75" stroke. I was thinking about building a 455 after I get it ironed out, and that has a 4.21" stroke. To make matters worse, if I really like this car like this and want to go farther my ultimate motor would be based on the new JBP aluminum block and have a 4.25" stroke. That's what I was concerned about.

I gotta get my tranny and see where the intermediate shaft passes (under mains or rods) and how much clearance I have. If it is under the mains, as with the SBC, I am set.

perk

I know nothing about longitudinal swaps, but if you need any info on Pontiac V8's......I'm pretty much of an authority on them. As they say "no brag...just fact". I've been working on, rebuilding and some casual racing with these engines for MANY years. Not too recently because the last 400 was made in '79 and that's 25 years ago.

I'm very interested in your project and offer my knowledge if you need it.

If memory serves, the 428 came out in 67 and is NOTHING BUT HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE IN A BOX........LOL. Physically it's the same size as all other V8 Pontiac motors.

I raced a 68 Firebird with a 428 and 400TH, bored .030, aluminum (I think)pistons, magnesium (I think....hey it's been 20 years...lol) rods, 10.75 comp ratio. crossdrilled forged crank, roller cam, rockers, oversized pushrods, screw in rocker studs, pro racing valve springs with titanium retainers and keepers,heads professionally ported and polished even in the rocker valleys to allow faster oil return. This was also done to the engine pushrod valley. Anti-pumpup lifters and high volume oil pump with oil cooler. The 428 came with a windage tray to prevent oil foaming. Torquer....or something similar intake matched to the head and polished. An 800 holley fed the beast after spending hours getting the right secondary setup. Ignition was Accel everything including a new dist with dual point setup. Timing was an all steel setup. All of this exhausted thru mega headers...lol.
In those days there was no place within 100 miles to have a car dynoed, but I'm guessing HP at about 550 and 625 torque. I ran a TH400 with 4:10 rearend and was turning mid 10's in the quarter. Let me wipe my mouth....im drooling..........LOL.

Anyway.......if you need any help...technical or otherwise PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL OR EMAIL ME. Email and I'll give you the phone number.

If you can snag that 428 you will be alot ahead of the game power wise. No matter what they say, all of the Pontiac V8s rev almost exactly the same. Good luck and let me know.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

If you found my advice helpful, please take the time to give me a positive rating. Thanks

[This message has been edited by GTDude (edited 12-13-2003).]

Not much more, it was at the National show in Willimsburg, Va. Pontiac 455 engine (i think), the thing i remember was that it used the stock suspension connected up to the FWD trans. I always thought you would need to use the suspension from the donor car (trans donor) but it fit in with lots of room, also some major work for the headers, cause stock manifolds would not work, something was in the way, not sure what it was.

Rob

Not sure what engine this is, but it was at the 20th

Another note on reversing the diff. When you rotate it 180 degrees, it in effect moves further outboard. What I mean is that in order to use axles that are the same length, the engine is offset more than it would be offset if the diff was not rotated. If you look at an eldo or toronado you will see that the engine is a bit off center. Rotating the diff makes the distance from axle flange to axle flange about 3" longer I think. This makes for a tight fit using a sbc, may be even tighter or impossible using a pontiac block. Also, to rotate it I made an adapter plate between the diff and the trans because the bolt pattern is not symetrical. I also had to do some mods to the inside of the diff, a nut plate was needed to hold the stub axle in on what is now the outboard side and I had to get my hands on another stub axle for the inboard side and machine it down to fit the diff. I also had to mod an eldo wheel hub so the shaft that goes under the pan would be able to attach. The hub has the same splie as that shaft and I had to machine it down, add a step to locate it and drill holes to mout it to the stub axle.

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: Hmmmm, I was just poking around thinking abuot what I am doing and noticed this on Rockcrawl's site: The differential housing then needs to be rotated 180 deg to an upside-down position to make the axles turn the oposite direction. This also places the pinion shaft below the axle centerline, effectively lowering the engine..." Since Pontiac's already have a pretty long stroke, I am not so sure this would work. It would push the intermediate shaft closer to the crank. Cardealer's method of reversing the rotation of the input shaft and tranny would though. Curious to see what his new setup is. Thanks for the pic qwikgta. Do you know anything else about the car? perk

my new setup is standard cut ring & pinion gears. i feel this the very best way to get a reveresed setup. the ring and pinion gears will come in 3.50 and 3.73 and later in a 3.90. these gears will be a direct bolt in replacement for the reverse cut gears that are in the th425 diff now. i should have six sets of the 3.50s and six sets of the 3.73 ready in late janurary. do to the large investment of the gears, right now i am planning on only doing complete diff setups and will not be selling the gears by themselves. i will be pricing the gearsets after i get a little futher to completion.

Cardealer....now you tell me!!! Seriously, I would be interested in those gears if I wasn't so far into my project. Also, I am sure they will be pricey, I got a quote for over $3000 (can't remember the exact price) for a set of gears. Of course that was one set but still.... Do keep us posted, if the price is right I might be interested. You should think about selling the gears seperatly too.

Way to go cardealer! That's definitely the best solution yet to the biggest reversed installation hurdle. Almost enough to make me consider a TH425

I am curious about something though. The chain-drive transfer unit spins the transmission counterclockwise (CCW). All the longitudinal transaxles are supposed to be based on conventional GM rear-drive trannies. The TH425 is essentially a TH400, the TH325 is essentially a weak-kneed TH200, and the TH325-4L is essentially a TH200-4R. All these trannies spin clockwise (CW) in their original front-engine/rear-drive configurations.

It's hard to believe that the parts-bin King of the automotive world would design and manufacture reverse cut gear sets for the entire transmission, and especially three times in a row! Am I missing something here?

perk

I would love to email you guys but for some reason (yahoo) I cant!!!!! I would love the pan!!!! I would love the 428! I would drive over today and pick it up!!! I will try and email you guys again!!! I should post some progress pics here by New Years! I am building my motor now! I am haveing difficulty locating the short axle that goes under the motor and that is holding me up right now. If I could find the bearing I could fab the rest! I like the 455 but there really isnt any reason to have that much torque IMHO. I am debating sending the motor back to set up for roller cam and rev kit, but that would be silly given the gear set. It wouldnt ever reach its potential! I might be dropping my exhaust infront of the rear tires and using the cutouts for wheelie bars if i cant do a reverse set up! Its going to be a strip car. " All I Want For Christmas Is Cardealers Wallet"!!!!!! well especially the contents. I take plastic! This motor will be in this car one way or the other!!!

Breakneck88 - look up East West auto parts in Oklahoma. http://www.allgmautoparts.com/index.html
I got my tranny from them, with axles. They have Fieros there too usually.
As for the oil pan, I did offer it to Perk first so if he wants it he should let me know soon or else it's your.

Tony I have tried to email you regarding the pan. Do you still have it?

I think you offered the pan to breakneck88 first - in any case if he wants it send it to him. He is closer than I am and I would like to see him keep moving. Just post some pics as you go breakneck88.

perk

Joe Wyman had an LTI Longitudinal installation using the TH325 tranny. While his installation is really neat and his car is super fast; the down side is the complete loss of the trunk and the big increase in weight.
It can be argued that for weekend overnight trips to cars shows, a small overnight bag can be carried in the front compartment. However, should you develop a flat, where do you put the spare tire?

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by PBJ: Not sure what engine this is, but it was at the 20th

455 Buick. He's a member of our car club -- Suncoast Fieros. The motor is currently under the knofe getting a 6-71 blower and fuel injection..

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Roy

double-click on this link to follow my interior build-up https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023174.html

Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Judged "Best Custom Interior" at the 20th Anniversary Show - 7/2003

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: However, should you develop a flat, where do you put the spare tire?

My plan is to build a lightweight removable holder for it behind the motor. With no trunk, and careful routing of the exhaust, I will have plenty of room for it there, mounted vertically.

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perk - todd's hot rods

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: OH10fiero, I thought you fell off a cliff somewhere perk

Work, school, working on my house and my cars as well as working on cars off to the side for extra cash, Christmas shoping and family visiting for the holidays, I have no life anymore But I do stop by the forum and visit every once and a while, I should have some spare time after I get back from California in February to start yet another Fiero project like those ever end .

Got my motor painted last night! SSWWEEEETTT!!! I still have to find alum intake. I have a 389 4v intake but i dont like the mating with the 6x's and i sure could lose some weight back there!!!!! I am starting to like these pontiac v8's.

All parts on order and I am goint to start fabbing out my cradle, First i am going to look into clearence for a reverse set up. Tony, I thank you for the pics but i think i will start from scratch on the pan... The only major set back i am up against as of today is finding a rear main seal thats not made out of rope.....And i have to go pull a dipstick from the junk yard!!!!and find an alum.. intake, my deal fell through!!!!I hope to have some pics posted my the end of the year!

A few Pontiac links just in case you haven't seen them. I am pretty sure one of these guys have a better rear seal (I think it's BOP, but I don't have time to search right now).

I think the Pontiac motor is one of the most under-rated out there. Tons, and tons, of potential. The Edelbrock heads flow about 280cfm out-of-the-box, and can be ported to flow up to around 350cfm. That's the biggest step to unlocking the hidden potential, and it will shave about 60lbs of the motor

http://www.bopengineering.com/index.shtml

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/index.html

http://www.krepower.com/

http://my.execpc.com/~lewenz/index.html

Edit
Yup, it's BOP that has the replacement main seal. Look here Pontiac Engine Accessories.

Here's one other source, that I don't have a website for:

DCI Motorsports, Inc. - 330.628.3354
3575B Gilchrist Rd.
Mogadore OH 44260

They also have new heads coming out, though it's a serious race deal.

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perk - todd's hot rods

[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 12-22-2003).]

Perk! Thank you for the links. I ordered the BOP main seal. And just a little update for whoever is interested I started fabbing the oil pan and this is what needds done for whoever wants to attempt this.

1. Cut alot of the pan on the driverside for clearence to the dif,
2. notch for the jack shaft.
3. move drain plug to left side.
4. cut left side rear of pan for olds/cadi starter.
5 Might as well just cut off pan rails and start ffrom scratch there isnt much pan left after the cutting is done.

The pontiac motor fits the th425 perfectly without any mods to the motor!!!! this makes me happy!!!!!!!