Advantage is you can use a stronger transmission. The olds tornado transmission is quite heavy but very strong. There is no other advantage I can think of, besides maybe looking different.
------------------ 86SE 5 speed 85GT 4.9 isuzu 5 speed Will trade both for a decent V-6 fiero.
[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 12-24-2003).]
Hello, Another Big advantage is that the axles are the same length for durabilty, and better traction, also centered in the chassis for better weight distribution. The chassis wheelbase is longer for high speed stabilty, depending on what type of course you what to run. Theres more, the only advantage for a tranverse layout is better packageing for a compact space. Norm.
------------------ Norm Vandermee
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01:25 AM
cccharlie Member
Posts: 2006 From: North Smithfield, RI Registered: Jan 2003
------------------ 88 4cyl auto Fiero, AC, sunroof "And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
Originally posted by normsf: ...The chassis wheelbase is longer for high speed stabilty...
That's with the Porsche or Audi transaxles. With the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle there is no need to stretch the wheelbase.
For me, the number one reason is strength. I want around 500hp and tons of torque. I want to be able to use every drop of it mercilessly, without the constant fear of grenading the trans.
Second reason is I like the way the engine looks mounted longitudinally - more like most modern exotic mid-engined sports cars.
I will be running the TH325-4L because it has overdrive and there are parts available to build it to handle the power and torque I want.
perk
[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 12-24-2003).]
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10:04 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14274 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Transverse cars launch harder at the same power level. The torque reaction from a longitudinal engine tries to lift one side of the car, which unloads one of the tires and reduces traction in a longitudinal setup. That's one reason Fieros can't help but launch hard stock.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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10:38 AM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
If you plan on stretching it for a kit car. Then longitudinal is the best way to go. All the transmissions previously mentioned will take more abuse than any Fiero trans. As far as the weight distribution if anything you may even it out a little more but probably not much. To give you some number to go on my t-top 87 GT with a full tanks of gas, spare tire and everything else in place weighed 1240 front and 1660 rear for a total of 2800. This was weighed at a truck stop scale with 20 lb. increments. So it is probably not exact but will give you some comparison.
------------------ LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT
http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm
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02:19 PM
WAWUZAT Member
Posts: 563 From: Newport News, VA Registered: Jun 2002
Hey LS1SWAP .... You DO NOT need to stretch the chassis to use either the TH325 ot TH425 transaxles ... but you will lose a good portion of your trunk. One guy in VA drag races his using the TH325 and a 455-Rocket ... consistently wheelies for great distances.
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05:34 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
That's with the Porshce or Audi transaxles. With the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle there is no need to stretch the wheelbase.
perk
Perk, This is kinda funny. I know you don't know why I find it funny, so I'll explain. You don't have to explain the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle to Norm.
I've known Norm for close to 17 years now and I can tell you that on the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle issue, He's been there, done that already. I met Norm right after I had done my 1st. V-8 swap & before I ever decided to start building V-8 kits. Him & another guy (We'll just call him Hammerhead for now) Had just started making what I'm sure is one of the 1st. body kits for the Fiero chassis. It was a 246 Dino rebody for the Fiero, At that time, this re-body had just been featured in one of the Kit Car magazines. Just about that same time I had heard from another source that there was a guy near me (In Mishawaka, IN) building himself a V-8 Fiero.
Well on one of my drives around town, I spotted 3 Fieros (in different stages of dis-assembly) next to a garage on 5th street in Mishawaka. I stopped to look at them, thinking they might be for sale because it was obvious that no one had worked on them in some time. As I inspected them I noticed that they were all cut up and modified for the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle. None of them were anywhere near running at that time.
I met Norm that day and we talked about all things Fiero.
I think Norm did finish one of those cars, but I'm positive that he never built a 2nd one.
As I've said before, I know several people who've done one V-8 Fiero swap with the Eldorado/Toronado transaxle, but I don't think I know anyone who's done 2 of them.
Anyway, I thought I'd just let you know that Norm is vaguely familiar with Eldorado/Toronado transaxle and the cutting and welding that you have to do to get it in a Fiero.
Im not familiar with the tranmissions you listed. Are any of them manual? My goal is to have a longitudinal motor with a 5-speed. Could i use the Getrag transmission or another type of 5-speed.
thx for all your help.
[This message has been edited by SkyMutt (edited 12-24-2003).]
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07:34 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
No they are both autos. The Porsche and audi are manuals though. The getrag 282 or 284 will only work in a transverse set up like mine. Those other two trans were in mid to early 70 caddies and oldsmobile FWD ( I am no expert on them). As stated you don't need to stretch the frame with them I should have been more clear with my wording. they are BOP bolt pattern though. Do a search on cardealer. He just did that swap he also is making or has made some parts to reverse the final drive depending on which way you want the engine to face. Is there a reason you want to stretch the body? An LS1 will fit transverse.... The getrag is fine as long as you don't start putting real sticky tires on the car. My car breaks loose before anything breaks. It held up to 320 ft/lb of torque on the dyno. So as long as you do not plan to do hole shots on a regular basis. It is fine.
[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 12-24-2003).]
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07:55 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
It will be used as a road racing car and autoX car. If putting the motor long. will net me the best results i will most certanly want to put the motor in that way. Having the advantage of equal length axles for durabilty, the advantage of better traction, also the advantage of better weight distribution sounds mighty delicious.
one more question..what exactly is ment by "stretching the wheel base"?? what does it involve and will it increase the performance or decrease the performance of a road/autoX car?
thx for all your help.
[This message has been edited by SkyMutt (edited 12-24-2003).]
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08:31 PM
donk316 Member
Posts: 1952 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Mar 2003
It will be used as a road racing car and autoX car. If putting the motor long. will net me the best results i will most certanly want to put the motor in that way. Having the advantage of equal length axles for durabilty, the advantage of better traction, also the advantage of better weight distribution sounds mighty delicious...
Not so sure you want to do a longitudinal swap then. There has been some confusion here so I'll try to help get the facts straight:
*Weight Distribution - you're probably NOT going to have better weight distribution with a longitudinal swap based on the TH325 or 425 transaxles. Even with the reversed setup the motor is still just about halfway over the axle putting 200-300lbs (depending on your choice of motor) behind the axle center line.
With a transverse transaxle virtually all of that weight will be ahead of the rear axle center line.
*Traction = As Will said, you will likely have better traction with the transverse trans as well, because the longitudinal trans will cause the vehicle to twist - planting one tire hard while compromising traction on the other side.
*Durability - That is the main benefit to the TH325/425 based swap. Equal length axles, that were designed for say 300hp/lb.ft. come with the package.
*Intentions - Many people who do this swap are mainly interested in being able to run the car as hard and fast as possible on the drag strip. They are willing to take the penalty of the added weight in back, and probably lesser handling.
I am going for both, and will be doing EXTENSIVE modifications to re-balance and re-engineer the entire car to make it handle and drive as well as, and eventually better than the stock car did.
*Bottom Line - If you want a quick and relatively easy swap that will work well for road racing and autocross, a transverse swap may be better. People like California Kid and Will have put many miles on their cars with little trouble.
If you plan to pound ridiculous amounts of power and torque to the ground, especially in drag racing, the longitudinal swap is worth the extra time, $$$, and elbow grease.
*Porsche/Audi - Still can't have your cake and eat it, but with the Porsche or Audi based longitudianl swap you can have a manual, equal length axles, and equal or better weight distribution. The caveat is you will need at least an 11" stretch to fit the motor in the car. Your car will no longer really look like a Fiero, but it might look more exotic.
quote
Originally posted by SkyMutt: ...one more question..what exactly is ment by "stretching the wheel base"?? what does it involve and will it increase the performance or decrease the performance of a road/autoX car?
You actually move the rear axle back however many inches you decide or must stretch the car. It started with the kit cars, so that they would look more like the car they were attempting to imitate. A Lamborghini Diablo has a 104" wheelbase. To make the kit look authentic on a Fiero they stretched the Fiero 11". This is done by cutting the rear frame section off and welding it back on with extensions between it and the main structure.
Either setup can handle well - that's more a function of good suspension design and setup. The best modern sports cars have wheelbases all over the place from the Porsche 911 at 92.6" (shorter than ours), to Vettes and Diablos, etc at 104+".
Well, which way are you leaning?
perk
[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 12-24-2003).]
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09:49 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14274 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by perkidelic: *Durability ... Equal length axles...
Why is everyone all up on equal length axles? I haven't heard enough axle failure stories to think this is a problem at all. If you REALLY want equal length axles you can use the Getrag extension shaft that was used on everything V6 FWD and Q4 after Fiero production ended. The transverse autos already have pretty much equal length axles
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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11:18 PM
Dec 25th, 2003
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Will: Why is everyone all up on equal length axles?...
I get your point but that wasn't really mine. I was really saying that the equal length axles were more or less a fringe benefit of the TH325/425 swap, and that they are likely stronger because they had to be designed for a torquey V8 engine.
quote
Originally posted by perkidelic: Durability - That is the main benefit to the TH325/425 based swap. Equal length axles, that were designed for say 300hp/lb.ft. come with the package.
O.K. I am in the middle of a longitudinal 400 pontiac swap with a th425 and i want to say a few things about this topic, first off the th 425/ 325 does use an equal length axle set up,!!! but it has a jack shaft at the inboard side which definetly negates the equal length axles!!!!If you plan on road racing i wouldnt suggest on a longitudinal setup unless you have the money to get cardealers reverse setup!
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07:08 PM
Dec 29th, 2003
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Transverse cars launch harder at the same power level. The torque reaction from a longitudinal engine tries to lift one side of the car, which unloads one of the tires and reduces traction in a longitudinal setup. That's one reason Fieros can't help but launch hard stock.
OK, let me step in and clear something up. Will is correct in his above statement as it applies to most Front-engine, rear drive, longitudunal setups. What happens is, you have an engine and transmission mounted in the front of the car, twisting a driveshaft thru a rear axle mounted out back. The reason why the car wants to twist is because the driveshaft is trying to turn the pinion gear against the axle housing and car. This is why the front left tire gets picked up on most RWD cars when you mash the gas.
HOWEVER
When we are talking about the toronado trans, the ring and pinion are mounted integral to the trans therefore the only counter-acting force trying to pull the engine up on one side is quenched by the case and bellhousing. Therefore, the only twisting force present with one of these trannys is trying to lift up on the front of the car due to the twisting of the CV axles.
Another case where this is true is with the C5 corvette. The C5 vette uses a torque tube to tie the engine to the rear-end and transmission therefore relieving the left to right twisting force found on most front engine, rear drive cars. The turning of the driveshaft inside of the torque tube cannot twist against the body since it is surrounded by a tube that prevents the engine from twisting in relation to the transmission and rear end.
Next time you get a chance check out a C5 and watch closely as it launches. The front-left tire does NOT come up as the whole front end lifts evenly during a launch. I am doing my best to not confuse all of you but maybe I need to draw a picture instead...
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. Custom GM Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | dtcc.cz28.com
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12:58 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Ok, lets try it with pictures now... (please excuse the poor artwork)
First, here is a picture of the powertrain from the standard front-engine, rear-drive car, without the rear axle:
Looking at the picture and assuming the engine is running and the transmission is in gear, what would happen if you stopped the driveshaft from turning? Obviously the engine and transmission assembly would spin the opposite direction as the driveshaft. This is what happens in the typical RWD car as the rear axle is bolted to the frame. Not only are the rear tires trying to pick up the front of the car, the pinion is trying to climb the ring gear, which if the car was unable to move, the engine and trans are still trying to turn the driveshaft thus twisting the frame up on the driver's side.
Now, here is a picture of the toronado setup:
As you can see, you have two CV shafts coming out of the sides of the transmission that are connected to drive the wheels. Assuming the engine is running and the transmission is in gear, what would happen if you held the axles? The only twisting force present would be trying to pick up on the front of the engine/car, not trying to twist the car from left to right. The reason why is because the engine, transmission, and differential are all bolted together in one piece. There is a twisting force because of crankshaft rotation but it is all contained within the engine/transmission assembly therefore it has no bearing on the chassis of the vehicle in that regard.
Just for kicks, here is the C5 powertrain:
The engine sits up front in the car and there is a shaft inside the torque tube that connects the engine to the transmission. The transmission is mounted directly to the differential. Because of the "torque tube" there is no twisting force (left-to-right) present in the C5 chassis. Again, like with the toronado setup, the engine, transmission, and differential are all bolted rigidly together thus the left-to-right twisting forces cannot effect the chassis. The only twisting force we are left with is the twisting of the wheels trying to pick up on the front of the car.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-29-2003).]
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01:34 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
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