This was a baaaaaad assumption on my part. The back of the bottle said it treated up to 20 gallons, so I'm thinking: "20 Gallons? Great! I've got a 10 Gallon tank! It'll get a double shot and really clean out the injectors!"

Just like Tylonal, too much is bad, not good. I don't know if it diluted the gas, clogged the fuel filter, gummed up the injectors or WHAT, but my car did NOT like it. I've been purposely not shifting to keep the RPMs up to burn off that tank of gas faster for the last week.

The problems: It killed my power curve - I have a V6 BTW. Getting on the freeway and other similar manuevers, I usually put the gas pedal half way down and that gives me plenty of power to get up to speed nice and quick. Not lately. I put the pedal down half and it would kinda sorta accelerate as if I was only giving it a little gas, all the way up to 2500-3000 RPMs. Thereabouts, and continuing up to 4000+ RPMs it would still not accelerate any faster. Not only that, but it would catch for a split second once in a while. It would be taking its sweet time and then it would jump for a split second and try to accelerate like it should be, as if I had just poked the gas really hard. It would do this a couple of times while continuing to accelerate slowly. It was trying, but it just could not get itself moving the way it should. The tach would be jumping around too, jumpin up by a couple hundred RPMs and falling back to where it actually was.

Well, now I'm a quarter of the way through a new tank of gas and I've gotten the hiccups almost completely out. Still does it a little bit, but for the most part its accelerating like it should. On the flip side, its now jumping around at idle and has developed an annoying squeal in the pulleys, so I'm gonna have to look into that. I'm hoping maybe the alternator pulley or the tensioner is loose and if I tighten up the belts I'll lose the squeal and the idle will even out. Or maybe the belts just wet, it has been pouring rain for the last few days. Oh well, I'll get to that next.

I always use the full bottle. Never had any problems.
I actually get better gas mileage "on the bottle".
Usually I get 22 or so and I get an extra 2-3 MPG while
I am running the Fuel Injector Cleaner. I use Super Gunk.

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<Black 86.5 GT, Auto w/ 3.33, Sunroof>
<2.5" Flowmaster Exhaust, K&N Filter and no rain guard>
<Yokohama 215/60R15 Tires, CS130 140 Amp Alternator>
<Pioneer DEH-P77DH, Pioneer 4X10's in dash>

Hmm, maybe I oughta try that stuff instead. Or maybe this all is indicative of a bigger problem. Oh well, either way its only gotta last till this summer when I do the swap.

I've never heard of a cleaner causing the engine to perform badly, possibly you may have some water in the tank that 'gelled' a little bit with the cleaner, wouldn't hurt to put a can of 'dry gas' in if you haven't done it in awhile.

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http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-30-2003).]

What is this "dry gas" you speak of? I haven't heard of it before.

Most Service Stations (as well as Auto Parts Stores) carry it, the stuff mixes with the water so that it will pass thru filters, and get burned in the engine so to speak. Very effective for getting all the water out of your tank. You always get a little water from Service Station pumps (water condensation in the tanks), so if you've never used it, you're probably overdue.

Same thing happened to me bro. Go to the local parts store or wal mart. Get A BOTTLE of HEET...its in a yellow or red bottle. It has refined alcohol in it (Ethyle Alcohol) that will dry out the water. Its also used to keep fuel lines from frezing in the winter. Then go to MOBIL, EXXON or BP, AMOCO. Fill up with low grade fuel. These gas stations have alot of Ethanol in their gas. The Ethanol will help get rid of the water too. Between the Heet and a full tank of gas you will get rid of the water and dilute the remainig Fuel Injector Cleaner enough to make your shi! run right again. Run the heet and gas till as empty as you dare drive to get it all out. Fill up the next time as you usually do, and no more cleaners. They are over rated anyway.

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Failing to prepare - Is preparing to fail....

I'll have to try some of that dry gas stuff myself...

Ya me too. I'm definatly going to make a stop on the way home from work tomarrow.

Ever look at the MSDS sheets on additives?
Here's what you may find:

PYROIL FUEL INJECTOR CLEANER 12/12 OZ

COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight)
------------------------------ ------------- -------------
KEROSENE 8008-20-6 91.0-100.0
GASOLINE PERFORMANCE ADDITIVE 1.0- 9.0

In other words, your fuel injector cleaner may be 100% kerosene.

Warning!!! Using the injector cleaner in lower than recommended dilution (more ppm of the cleaner) can dissolve the coating on the injector windings. The older the injectors, the more of an effect each incident will have. I'm not saying you ruined your injectors with just one incident but repeated use will dissolve the coating and cause shorts across the windings which will change the flow characteristics of the injectors to varying degrees. This is not just my opinion but is fact and that is why the mfgs have a recommended dilution. The mfgs also have a recommendation for the frequency to "clean" your fuel system, which depends on the strength of the cleaner solution. I got this from a reputable injector service shop and thought I'd pass it along.

I'll definately keep that in mind. I think they say to use them every 3000 miles, like an oil change. If I do try again, I'll spread it out over to tank fulls, not one.

Say, that "dry gas" additive won't make things any worse will it?

Heet is 99% isopropanol and 1% proprietary Additive.

No it won't things any worse, and you shouldn't have to use injector cleaner any more that every couple years.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-31-2003).]

Ok, thanks guys, appreciate the suggestions. You can bet I'll be reading the instructions on the HEET stuff or whatever dry gas I find, just in case

What brand did you use anyway? It has not been mentioned or did I miss it?

Valvoline SynTech. Ironically, it says it "Eliminates rough idle and hesitation" when it actually caused these problems in my car. Not Valvolines fault, I screwed up. Kinda funny still.

On the additive topic, whats the word on engine restorer? Good stuff to add? My car rolled over 150000 miles not long ago, so it could probably use it.

How long should I wait on all this? Can I drop by Kragen tomarrow and pick up engine restore and dry gas and pour and go, or do I need to wait a while before I put anything besides gas in it? How long should I wait between each additive (the original injector cleaner, the engine restorer, and the dry gas)?

quote Originally posted by spark1: Heet is 99% isopropanol and 1% proprietary Additive.

Isopropyl Alcohol is BY definition in at Least 25% WATER!!!!!( sold as RUBBING ALCOHOL ) It can also be Isopropyl Alcohol 70%...which means this kind is 30% water...
Do not put this in your gas tank...I have seen people come in the pharmacy thru the years to get this to put in their tank because they think it will get the water out of....when they really were adding WATER to their tank!!!!

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1988 Gary Tucker (GT)

Your fuel filter is now clogged from the cleaning the crap out of the fuel tank??

i put two bottles of lucas fuel injector cleaner in an 85GT that i picked up, it sat for 2 years so i figured it was REALLY gummed up, well i did a very bad thing, the car runs like **** now, and it didnt before.

ill probably end up changing out the injectors, and taking out atleast 5 gallons of the gas.

matthew

Besides fuel injector cleaner being bad for fuel injectors (Ironic, isn't it), it's bad for the fuel sender unit in the gas tank (which is the issue I have now).

The sputtering could caused by the fact that the cleaner removes ALOT of carbon if you've never used it before. All this carbon could have clogged your O2 sensor. I had it happen when I first got my Fiero.

Also, alcohol can be great for turbocharged motors (like the Ecotec Turbo I'm building), but like you said, pouring it into the gas tank is bad. It's better to have it injected, exactly like NOS. This actually WILL remove ALL carbon inside your motor. ALL of it. Your internals will look like new. As soon as I start the turbo portion of my conversion, I'm adding a nice alcohol kit that's a little cheaper than a NOS kit.

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Nitrously yours,
Airman Michael C Casaceli
United States Navy

Will work for Race legal HKS boost controller and custom ECM.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Most Service Stations (as well as Auto Parts Stores) carry it, the stuff mixes with the water so that it will pass thru filters, and get burned in the engine so to speak. Very effective for getting all the water out of your tank. You always get a little water from Service Station pumps (water condensation in the tanks), so if you've never used it, you're probably overdue.

When it comes to water in the gas, you have to live in snow country to really appreciate what it does.

The condensation can get into things and ruin a good tuneup and cost some bucks.

Go to your hardware store and buy a gallon of Methyl Hydrate.

It costs less than $5 and will last you for years. You add half a cup to your tank before winter or whenever you feel the car stumble. Methyl Hydrate is wood alcohol. It is a close cousin to Ethanol. It won't hurt your engine. I've used it on every car I've ever owned.

You can also tank up with high-test Ethanol gas and it will do the same thing.

As for the problem with the cleaner, if the gas components got gummed up with cheap gas over the years, adding a strong cleaner might break loose all sorts of crud quickly.

This would have the effect of clogging God only knows what in your system. I would definitely change the gas filter. I know it is a pain, but after a strong cleaner in your tank, it probably washed all sorts of crap into the fuel filter.

Regular cleaning with a good cleaner is not bad. It is good. Occasional cleaning can do exactly what was described.

Arn

Maybe you should try some Marvel mystery oil in your tank to see if it can help clear things up.

If you want a good fuel injector cleaner you need to find one with Techron. That is the same stuff that Chevron says it has in it's fuel, except it will be in a higher concentration in the cleaner. There also is a fuel injector cleaner that you screw right on to your fuel rail. This one requires that you pull the fuel pump fuse and run the car's engine off of this pressurised can. That is the one most car dealerships use to clean the injectors.

quote Originally posted by GARY TUCKER: Isopropyl Alcohol is BY definition in at Least 25% WATER!!!!!( sold as RUBBING ALCOHOL ) It can also be Isopropyl Alcohol 70%...which means this kind is 30% water...

Not true. Yes, rubbing alcohol is about 70% Isopropanol/ 30% water. But Isopropanol, by definition, is simply Isopropanol. There is nothing implied about the amount of water in it. Just like water, by definition, is simply water....nothing else.

You can have pure Isopropanol. Believe me, I work in a laboratory and that is one of our common solvents (99.95% pure).

I'm sure the gas additive is pretty much all isopropanol.

Dave

Well that sucks, my fuel filter is only a few months old.

So now I'm lookin for:
Engine Restorer - silver bottle, 6cyl
Marvel Mystery Oil
Heet
Methyl Hydrate
and a new fuel filter

Anything else I should pour in there besides gas?

quote Originally posted by avengador1: If you want a good fuel injector cleaner you need to find one with Techron. That is the same stuff that Chevron says it has in it's fuel, except it will be in a higher concentration in the cleaner.

Bingo!!! That's the only one that Fuel Injection Engineers (GM, Chrysler, and Ford Headquarters) recommend.

As I said above, you shouldn't have to use this more that once a year at the most.

One bit of advice I have is that you shouldn't try all of these bits of advice all at once at the same time. Bits of you and your Fiero will probably end up on the Moon.

LOL yes, luckily that has occured to me, else I might be asking YOU to look for pieces of my engine over there on the other coast.

I have a new fuel filter sitting around all ready, but I'm gonna wait on that cause I think its ok. The one on the car is only a few months old, and since the car got a fresh tank of gas its been behaving MUCH better.

So, here is the plan as it stands right now:
After work, I'm going to buy the stuff I need, except for the techron injector cleaner cause it obviously doesn't need any more injector cleaner right now.
I'm going to top of the tank and give it the dry gas today and see if that helps eliminate the problem.
On the next full tank of gas, it'll get the engine restorer.
I don't know what 'Marvel Mystery Oil' is, so I'll look into that and maybe it'll get that on the next full tank after the engine restorer.
If, after all this, its acting up, I'll crawl under there and replace the fuel filter.
3000+ miles down the road, I'll think about giving it the Techron cleaner.

Another note, before you use Restore, do an engine compression check. This will tell you how well you rings are sealing in the cylinders. That restore product contains powdered metals in it, that are supposed to fill in cylinder wall scratches. If you have decent compression pass on the restore.

Chevron/Texaco's Techron (Also part of Texaco's Clean System 3 I believe.) is one of the few products well recognized by the oil industry. I have seen it appear several times in Oil Industry trade publications that are not normally available to the public.

Using cleaners incorrectly can cause problems. Especially in many GM models but others aren't imune to it.

A big problem... The injector internal wiring is exposed to the fuel for cooling. This leaves the injectors subject to damage from solvents.

It is very important to use only product made for EFI and only in needed amounts.

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Be alert. The world needs more lerts...

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

ive put Many bottles of stuff in my fuel tank and never had any problems, ive used sea foam, marvel mystery oil, ATF, cheveron techron, kerosene, ect, and it runs like a top, just this last tank i but about 1/3 of a qt of MMO in with the gas and it runs like new,

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Rich AIM: ONE FAST 2M8
'92 325i-- X-brace, eibach pro-kit, bilstein sport, S.T. brace, borla cat back,
'86 Fiero 2M8 ,'75 4 bolt 350 bored .030 over,World Products s/r Torquers-ported, Manley valves, Weiand Stealth intake, edelbrock 750cfm.carb hypereutectic pistons, 1.5 rollers,lumpy cam, sanderson cc90's,2-1/4" exhaust 4:10 tranny, Spec stage 3copper puck clutch, adj.Koni's, Eibach's,polly, tons more...
'86 Fiero 2m6 built 2.8 , 2-1/4 inch drop, KYB's

This is what I do. I do not buy cut-rate gas. I use Shell and I really like it, also I try to buy my gas at a newer shell station if possible. the reason is that station has new tanks which are plastic instead of metal, and has a lot less of water collected. I also like to fill up when the fuel truck has just left, because the water is on the bottom. low tanks more water.
Don

Wanna make your own injector cleaner? Put some moth balls in kerosene. Here's what's in Valvoline Super Concentrated Fuel Injector Cleaner:

85-95% kerosene
05-15% "Gasoline Performance Additive" (naphthalene)

The touted Techron® is just a variant of the formula:

50% Distillates, hydrotreated light (deodorized kerosene)
10-25% Stoddard solvent (see below)
05-10% Solvent naphtha, light aromatic
01-05% Benzene, 1,2,4-trimethyl
.1-.5% Xylene aka xylol or dimethylbenzene

Stoddard solvent is a colorless, flammable liquid that smells and tastes like kerosene. It's also known as dry cleaning safety solvent, petroleum solvent, and varnoline; its registered trade names are Texsolve S® and Varsol 1®. It is a chemical mixture that is similar to white spirits.

quote Originally posted by ka4nkf: This is what I do. I do not buy cut-rate gas. I use Shell and I really like it, also I try to buy my gas at a newer shell station if possible. the reason is that station has new tanks which are plastic instead of metal, and has a lot less of water collected. I also like to fill up when the fuel truck has just left, because the water is on the bottom. low tanks more water. Don

Most gas stations still in business have "new" non metalic tanks. The various states and federal EPA made them install non metalic tanks durring the 80's. Many fuel stations went out of business because they could not get financing for the new tanks, which could easily cost a quarter to half Million dollars to install if not more. The tanks are often worth as much or more than the property the station stands on. All stations built since then have NM tanks.

Fuel "detergent" additives are EPA regulated. Even the cheapest fuel must meet EPA regs which are more than sufficient for most cars.

Fuel Station tanks are so heavily regulated you can't imagine. They require at least annual testing in most places.

The big problem are private motor and heating fuel tanks, many of which have been leaking for years.

Basicly what 87GTZ34 said.

Mostly all of GMs fuel injectors are prone to being shorted out by fuel injection cleaner.

This is the injectors that dont have the "groove" in the center of them.

I cant recall what manufac it was, but i can look it up.

Well, I hit Kragen today. Found the Heet stuff recommended. Went with Iso Heet caues its for year round use, whereas Heet is for winter use, and it almost never gets below freezing around here. So I put Iso Heet in the tank and Engine Restore in the oil and DEAR GOD that is the closest thing to INSTANT GRATIFICATION I have ever had! Immediatly the problems were almost completely gone! I couldn't believe it! Idle is much better, hesitation is almost gone, its awesome. I'm usually quite skeptical about simple add in stuff like this, but I'm sold. Thanks for the advice guys!

If your car hasen't had regular fuel system cleaners run thru the gas, I would still change the fuel filter again. Cleaners and alcholol will strip the gum and rust in the tank and put it in the filter. When I get a car that's been stored for years, I end up changed the fuel filter 2-3 times while running cleaners thru the system. It's cheap insurance. Just change your new one and cut it open!!

quote Originally posted by spark1: Wanna make your own injector cleaner? Put some moth balls in kerosene. Here's what's in Valvoline Super Concentrated Fuel Injector Cleaner: 85-95% kerosene 05-15% "Gasoline Performance Additive" (naphthalene)

Just to confirm, naptha is the same stuff in those zippo lighter refill bottles right?

Yep, lighter fluid is naphtha, moth balls are naphthalene. Injector cleaner is snake oil.