Oh and why do some cut,lets say 1 coil in the front and only 1/2 a coil in the rear.Why less in the rear than the front? Dont you want to keep things the same all the way around?
[This message has been edited by windsweptfiero (edited 02-06-2004).]
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11:21 PM
Feb 7th, 2004
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Some people like the look of having the rear slightly higher than the front of the car. I've always heard 1 1/2 coils all around is a good setup, good for about a 2" drop.
There is little difference between cut springs and lowering springs if done properly. You will not bottom out more often on cut springs. When you cut coils you actually stiffen the spring rate. There are less coils to flex, a lowering spring is a stiffer smaller spring to start with. As long as you don't heat the spring you are cutting you will be fine.
What really wrecks springs are the people that have their friends sit on their hood while they heat the springs with a torch to lower the car. It does work, sometimes but weakens your spring considerably.
Some people get way to worked up about this stuff, people have been cutting springs forever.
Be sure to get an alignment after your car settles.
if u wanna cut em then cut em. if u screw up buy new replacement springs or buy lowering springs, just cuase you cut a coil dosnt make it getto, or make your car uncontolably dangoris to drive, its when u get caried away, cuttin 2 coils or more its starts to get dangorios, im surprised that FIEROMASTER88 got away with 2 coils on all the corners and got away with it. the only problem that i can forsee is when you jack the car up the coil may become unseated in its purch. theres too much snow on the ground right now but soon as its melts my car is goin on my hoist at work and im gonna spend a few hours cuttin coils. im gonna try 1 in the front and .5 in the rear, and if a feel the ass sits to high well the next weekend ill cut another .5 on the rear. i think the key hear is after you do your drop for the love of got LINE IT UP. soon as my fiero leaves my hoist im doin and alinement on it. its gonna be another 2 months befor i get around to it but i will post befor and after pics. WINDSWEPT, just giver man, if u wanna cut them then do it, my advise to you is use a cut off wheel, and keep the spring cold. get an alinement when your done and enjoy. if your car ride ruff well, u drive a Fiero not a Caddy! nuff said
------------------ Black 84 2M4
[This message has been edited by MR P BODY (edited 02-07-2004).]
im surprised that FIEROMASTER88 got away with 2 coils on all the corners and got away with it. the only problem that i can forsee is when you jack the car up the coil may become unseated in its purch.
Yes, that is very true. Thats the reason I'm getting coilovers in the rear. The fronts never give my any problems. You just have to make sure you get the springs set back in on the rear.
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02:26 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40958 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
fieromaster88 - so you have never had any problems with having cut 2 complete coils off the front? never had problems with reseating after jacking, right? just want to be perfectly clear on this. also, with the 2 coil cut all the way around, how much of a complete drop (front, rear and at the middle doors) did this approx give you? shadows in the pics make it a little hard to tell.
if 2 coils in the back have a problem reseating in the back, what would be the most that could be cut off and still reseat? 1 and a half?
When I lowered my 88, I bought the springs from a well known vender and spent a weekend installing new bushings, tie rod ends, shocks and struts. The front of the car kept getting lower and lower and lower until it was resting on the bump stops. So I trimmed the bump stops and it lowered itself even more until it was on the bumps again. This time it was bottoming out the shocks and the ride was horrible. So, I cut one coil off the original springs and reinstalled them. The result was a greatly improved ride and better handling than the 'quality lowering springs' that I had spent too much money on. If I were to do it again, I'd find a set of the softest springs to cut because the car was pretty stiff with the cut GT coils on the front. Because of my personal experience with expensive lowering springs, I will never buy another set.
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07:47 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40958 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
When I lowered my 88, I bought the springs from a well known vender ... The front of the car kept getting lower and lower and lower until it was resting on the bump stops. So I trimmed the bump stops and it lowered itself even more until it was on the bumps again.
This particular case is the main reason I didn't buy lowering springs. This vendor is *still* the only place to buy lowering springs for an 88. At least until ACE pops back up (if they do, at all.) The only other option was the $600 spindle kit, whose manufacturer some people on this forum have had difficulties with, as well. Cutting my springs became just about the only option available. I used coupe springs, BTW.
Now that Rodney is doing custom "drop" balljoints for 88s, I may give them a try on my other car.
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10:30 PM
windsweptfiero Member
Posts: 252 From: Scottville,Michigan,USA Registered: Jan 2004
That is what I was looking for and thats why I asked a question thats been asked before....Things change with time and so will the info on this forum.Forgive me for asking these "old" questions but If I am going to do something to my car I want up to date information before I do the job.I think there is enough people on the forum that will be glad to help regardless.By the way I do check past discussions and get a ton of info from them,otherwise I woulld have a bunch more questions.
PEACE....
------------------ GOD,Family and Cars...And in that order...
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10:34 PM
PFF
System Bot
Feb 8th, 2004
MrPBody Member
Posts: 1787 From: Decatur, GA, USA Registered: Oct 2000
i think the key hear is after you do your drop for the love of got LINE IT UP. soon as my fiero leaves my hoist im doin and alinement on it.
Drive, let the car settle for a day or 2 before the alignment, the springs will actually sit alittle higher at first but they will settle. Don't want more than 1 alignment
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04:29 AM
NotAFieroAnyLonger Member
Posts: 4413 From: 75762/Texas/USA Registered: Dec 2003
I also cut 2 full coils on all 4 corner's.... I am still running the 15" stock lace wheel's and sometimes I feel like I am scraping my ass on the hiway...lol I am within a 3/8" from the bump stop's in the front. I am planning on just trimming the stop's and call it a day!
------------------ AKA. "SmoothGT".... Custom Built W I D E BODY~GT!! "I would rather be hatefully remembered, then just forgotten!!"
Thanks. Wouldn't use it without asking, but haven't seen my thoughts phrased any better anywhere else...lol...
As far as why most people cut off less from the rear than the front, the wheel rate is different front to rear, the spring rate is different front to rear, and the coil spacing is different front to rear. Not to mention different tire sizes front to rear...I think FieroMaster88's car sits real nice, and it appears he's running the same size wheels and tires front to rear....but if he was running the same 245/40/18's in the rear and 215/40/17's in the front that I am, I'm not sure it would look quite right. (or it may look awesome....who knows...)
Also, Windswept, keep in mind that most of the people talking about their results so far have been '88 owners...pre-88's have a few choices for aftermarket lowering springs, and '88's are pretty limited, so there's probably more '88 owners with cut springs out there, and more "tried and true" amounts to cut.
If yours is a pre-88, remember these numbers might not work for you...either commit yourself to possibly pulling the springs out a few times, and only cutting a small amount at a time, or try to find pre-88 owners with cut springs, see how much they cut, and base your decision on that.
Take care all...
------------------ Jeremy B.
quote
Originally posted by MrPBody:
Our experiences and our opinions differ. No problem; we can agree to disagree. However, please don't take the position that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.
Drive, let the car settle for a day or 2 before the alignment, the springs will actually sit alittle higher at first but they will settle. Don't want more than 1 alignment
that is a realy good point, never even though of that, thanks for savein me some time
------------------ Black 84 2M4
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08:29 PM
windsweptfiero Member
Posts: 252 From: Scottville,Michigan,USA Registered: Jan 2004
How well do the cut springs sit in their pockets? I would think a cut spring would be putting more force on a smaller area then a stock shaped spring. That's what is really bugging me about cutting my springs. Because you would be eliminating the nice curled end that fits into the pocket.
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05:13 AM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4877 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Herb Adams was a GM engineer and racer. He cut the coils on his 87 Fiero racecar. Granted, that was a racecar, but I'm cutting my fronts. I'll buy lowering springs for the rear to spare my kidneys, since they should be progressive rates and this will be a daily driver. Now get this: I cut one coil from the front for (I expect) about a one inch drop, but I'm getting rear springs for a 1.25 - 1.75 drop in the rear. I'll make up for the extra drop in the rear with an inch larger rim and slightly taller profile to fill the body gap. Speedo error? whatever.
------------------ John DuRette Black 85 SE, undergoing work as we speak! Battery re-located up front using a V8 Archie box Remote Start/Window Rollup/Lock/Trunk Release/Alarm White Gauge Faces w/120 MPH Speedometer Conversion Urethane Suspension Bushings Sequential Tallights Custom Painted Dash Panels Oreif's painted door tabs and horn button Shortened Automatic Shifter SpyHunter Scoop H4 Headlight Conversion LED Third Brake Light/Custom Headliner Braided Steel Brake Hoses Lowered an inch
How well do the cut springs sit in their pockets? I would think a cut spring would be putting more force on a smaller area then a stock shaped spring. That's what is really bugging me about cutting my springs. Because you would be eliminating the nice curled end that fits into the pocket.
I can't speak about the earlier years, but the springs that came out of my 88 Formula parts car were only "flattened" on the top end, while the bottom (LCA) end maintained the same coil spacing all the way down. The ones that came out of the coupe were flattened on the top, and moderately flattened on the bottom. I cut the bottom end of the coupe springs. The result was a spring that looked just like a Formula spring, regarding the configuration of the bottom coil. They fit in the pockets of the control arms just like the Formula ones.
If you have an earlier car, YMMV.
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03:14 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40958 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I'm gonna stand by what i have learned through discussion with people who have both cut and bought lowering front springs. i was looking for improved (MY opinion) looks, some improved performance (daily driver) and yeah comfort (daily driven 35 miles each way to work) I'm NOT cutting the rears because quite frankly I don't see how I'm going to bend them to fit into the seats. So i'm buying ST rear springs. the progressive rate springs will be easier on my backside. I have probably made for a harsher front end using polyurethane a-arm bushings but the last time I had the car on the highway I couldn't detect any loss of ride quality up front. probably a testament to new shocks.
If my ignorance is pure, at least i got something going for me.
[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 02-12-2004).]
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10:18 PM
Feb 12th, 2004
blazin' Member
Posts: 1294 From: Yorkton, SK Registered: Oct 2001
I was afraid as well of cutting the rear springs, so I've got some ST rear springs in the mail. My front bounces around like a "ghetto-sled" at the moment 'cause my front springs are old, and worn out. I have some nice WS6 springs that'll be going under the blade to replace those.
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10:31 AM
Black-Azz-GT Member
Posts: 2326 From: Florida Keys Registered: Oct 2003
I was afraid as well of cutting the rear springs, so I've got some ST rear springs in the mail. My front bounces around like a "ghetto-sled" at the moment 'cause my front springs are old, and worn out. I have some nice WS6 springs that'll be going under the blade to replace those.
Just a question, no flamming intended. If you guys are buying springs for the back, why not buy the all four and install them instead of cutting them. I have not priced just the back but, it seems you would get a better deal buying all four.
If your car bounces around then your springs are functioning exactly the way a spring should. Shocks and struts are there to dampen the oscillation of the spring.
Here's more info than anyone should care to know.. Cutting a spring increases the spring rate, making it stiffer or harder to compress (and harder to stretch). The amount the cut spring rate increases is proportional to the amount you cut off. If you cut a 250lb. spring in half, it'll be two 500lb springs.
When you compress and release any spring, it will recoil with an equal force that it was compressed with. The spring will then be in a stretched state and will then try to compress itself (in our case, due to the weight of the car's body). This is a bouncy car - the springs are compressing and stretching with only friction slowing the amplitude of the cycle down. Think of a paddle ball game when you miss the ball with the paddle. A shock absorber will absorb some of the energy being applied to and being released from the spring, allowing it to find it's natural uncompressed/unstretched state sooner.
Not trying to flame anyone, I would just hate to see my fellow Fiero fans throw money at springs because of mis-diagnosed worn out shocks. Shocks are designed to wear out, springs generally are not unless they are heated or overloaded. When I dug my Fiero out of the corner of my garage last fall, it was bouncing all over the road. I dropped new shocks and struts into it and it was the sweetest ride I've ever had in that thing.
Just my two cents, as I remember it from first year physics many many years ago. I hope I remembered it well enough for it to make sense.
[This message has been edited by Stinkin_V8 (edited 02-12-2004).]
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02:53 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4877 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Just a question, no flamming intended. If you guys are buying springs for the back, why not buy the all four and install them instead of cutting them. I have not priced just the back but, it seems you would get a better deal buying all four.
Welllll.... turns out you spend half as much when you buy only two springs instead of four. The places that cut you a deal when you buy four are charging more for two than I would pay.
------------------ John DuRette Black 85 SE, undergoing work as we speak! Battery re-located up front using a V8 Archie box Remote Start/Window Rollup/Lock/Trunk Release/Alarm White Gauge Faces w/120 MPH Speedometer Conversion Urethane Suspension Bushings Sequential Tallights Custom Painted Dash Panels Oreif's painted door tabs and horn button Shortened Automatic Shifter w/Beretta shiftknob SpyHunter Scoop H4 Headlight Conversion - done right! LED Third Brake Light/Custom Headliner Braided Steel Brake Hoses Lowered an inch
Just a question, no flamming intended. If you guys are buying springs for the back, why not buy the all four and install them instead of cutting them. I have not priced just the back but, it seems you would get a better deal buying all four.
My reasons for doing so (coilovers on the rear, cut fronts) would be spring rate. Cut front springs (starting with the stiffest '88 code available) make for a nice (in my opinion) spring rate, where the rears are still way too soft. To get a spring rate in the rear that I find stiff enough, mandates coilovers. Suppose I could try to find out who's selling '88 lowering springs this week, but why, when adjustable perch springs offer so much...well, more.
Regarding how the rears sit in the upper perch, not too terribly badly. I have never cut springs on a pre-88 (eibach makes a rather nice set, in my opinion...and coilovers a much nicer set yet), so I can't comment on them. On an '88, you just have to make sure they are lined up properly in the first place (ie...not hanging halfway off the perch).
