Good News for those of us with 88 Fieros, well those thinking about power steering anyway. The 4th Gen Camaro racks are close...but I discovered today that the 88 fiero uses the same tie rod ends as the 4th gen camaro...so they will just thread on the end of the camaro's inner tie rod end.

Nate

Awesome!! I can't wait to see how it turns out. Whats the difference in weight between the two?
--Bryson

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88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo...It has begun
88 VW GTI 16v ($300 driver/autox MACHINE!)
90 Olds Calais International H.O. (donor car)
88 Fiero Formula (parts car)

Man I hate bringing bad news, but I have to.
It won't work. I really wish I could show you pictures. I have them but pip freezes up on me.

The camaro/firebird's rack with the tie rods is quite few inches longer then the 84-87 Fiero's, something like 5-6" (Im not sure about the 88's length but I think its probably close to the 84-87's). You can't thread more of the rod because the diameter of the rod decreases after the threads, there would be nothing to thread. The Fiero's rack has threaded rod on each end of the rack. The F bods rack is threaded on the inside of each end and the tie rods screw into it. The F bods tie rod ball and sockets are 1.25" closer togather then the Fiero's, this would throw the geometry of the Fiero's steering off. (might not be a significant figure, but I dont know for sure) I have sucsessfully adapted the F bods rack to work on the Fiero. The next big issue is mounting it. The F bods rack has two bosses on the rack that a bolts go through that holds it in place. With the rack in the proper spot on the front cross member, these boses interfere with the cross member by about 3/4" or so. There has to be quite a bit of cutting and welding to mount the rack. But it can definatly be done.

And bryson, very little weight, the racks are within 3 lbs. The pump is the real difference. I guess your going to press a the pulley back onto the intake cam too

Edited to correct the length.

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84 Indy fiero Quad 4 HO (almost done!!)
Silver 88 GT, Newest addiction.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 11-17-2003).]

I read on the forum here that the fiero rack is 19" from end to end...no tie rods included(inner or outer) and the Camaro rack was just under 20" end to end. I can make the tie rod situation work...I have access to many tie rods and can also fabricate adjusters if need be. I found a cheap source for a 98 Camaro rack...and I get a discount on rebuilt ones. I have a Merkur rack and I will be pulling the rack from my 88 so I can do some comparing. The mounting isn't an issue. I have room and a welder and an imagination. The pump isn't an issue...I am going to run a unique electro-hydraulic set up...but suggestions and ideas are always welcome.
Thanks
Nate

Yay! I got pip to work!

First thing I did, I cut off the ends of the Fiero's rack, and cut them down in the lathe.

Cut, and re-sized to fit...

Nice fit!

When you take the Tie rods and put them up against the ends of the F bod rack, where they are is the exact right spot.

Pictures of progress are always good to see. Keep us updated!

Bryce
88 GT

Hopefully you get it to work, my rack is coming within a week. I'll make mine work, just remember who started the idea.

Don't worry, I did remember, I also fixed your ratings bar alittle.

So... just to re-cap to make sure I understand your process:

You first cut the ends off of the Fieros rack and turned them down to fit inside the ends of the F-body rack (to be welded). This was done in order to use the Fiero's tie rods. Correct?

Now, in your previous post, you mentioned that there is a 1.25" difference the F-body rack and the Fiero rack. Do your adaptors compensate for the difference?

If I understood everything, it appears the that the only modification needed to make the F-body rack the same size as the Fiero is your adaptors... Correct?

Very nice work,

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Roy

double-click on this link to follow my interior build-up https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023174.html

Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Judged "Best Custom Interior" at the 20th Anniversary Show - 7/2003

For the mounts on the rack, how about just grinding and modifying the cross member for any metal thats in the way. Then drill 2 holes the exact size of the mounts on the f-bod rack, and use heat treated bolts and lock nuts and washers. Put the bolts through the holes from the inside, then use lock washers and lock nuts to create 2 large mounts to hold the rack to the member. In theory I would think it would work as long as the cross member was modified with only some grinding from an angle grinder, then drilling the 2 holes to mount the rack, making sure its aligned to the exact millimeter.

Sort of like how my bolt is made in this picture:

C=|D|D|D|S|DD==

The c is the head which is on the inside of the member.

The = is the actual thread of the bolt

The | is lock washers and/or flat washers

D is the lock nuts

S is the steering.

Of course the length of the bolt, and how many lock nuts are used, are based on how far the rack has to be mounted out. If need be in the future the bolt can easily be welded to keep it from moving, and heat treated bolts of course are much stronger than regular steel bolts.

Positive's are accepted, need to get some green please

[This message has been edited by 1985FieroGT (edited 11-17-2003).]

Fierobsessed, can you tell me how much travel the F body rack has and how many turns it takes to go lock to lock? Is that a cast iron power steering spool pressed into an aluminum rack body? How far off is the angle of the input shaft of the F body compared to the Fiero? Can you get a close up pic of the F body Power steering spool? What year F body rack did you use? Are the Fiero rack and F body rack Gears the same diam? Can you measure the extct length of the F body rack gear with out the ends on it? (Maybe you took a reading before you welded it)

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 11-17-2003).]

Rick it depends on the rack, non performance racks are 2.75 lock to lock, performance racks are 2.25 lock to lock

2.25 lock to lock is exactly what I want. But it may not be the same after the conversion. If the F body steering arms are a different length than the Fiero then that will change the ratio and the number of turns lock to lock. If the F body steering arms are longer than the Fiero steering arms the ratio will be higher(more turns lock to lock) but if that is the case then the rack will need more travle to turn the wheels all the way. If the rack does not have all the travle needed then the wheels will never turn all the way. If the arms are shorter than the Fiero then the ratio will be quicker(less turns lock to lock) and the rack will not need as much travle or it will hit the steering stops, or the tires will rub before you hit full steer.
This is why I asked all the questions.
I want this to work because there are alot of F body racks out there and that means cheap parts

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: ... If the F body steering arms are a different length than the Fiero then that will change the ratio and the number of turns lock to lock. ...

If I understand your statement, I don't believe that's correct. I believe that the rack itself is was determines lock-to-lock ratios. The arms (tie rods?) are only an extension mounted to the end of the rack in order to turn the spindle.

Roy

Yes and no
I was not talking about the tie rods. I was talking about the steering arms that the tie rod/ball joint bolts to on the bearing cariers. Idealy the longer the tie rod is the better off it will be as it will have less defection as the wheel goes up and down. But we dont want to redesign the suspention we just want to get a power steering rack for our Fiero Yes the Rack does limmit the travle as it has the stop, at least that is how the 88 works. But if the Total steering raito is off because the rack does not have enough travle for long steering arms then the rack will hit the stops before the wheels turn all the way. If the steering arms are short than the wheels will rub on the suspention A arms before the rack hits the stop. The Steering arm length is as important to total steering ratio as the rack and pinion ratio. They work together to to determin the total steering ratio. (total steering ratio is how far the wheels turns per one turn of the steering wheel, not how far the wheels turn before they hit the stop. The lock to lock ratio is how many times the steering wheel turns from one stop to the other. If the lock to lock ratio of a F body rack in an F body car is 2.25 it may not be the same in the Fiero. But if the stering arms are the same in the F body and Fiero then the lock to lock ratio will be the same. If the Fiero has shorter arms (this is better then longer arms for us) than the F body, and we put in the F body rack the total lock to lock ratio will be faster than the F body and a 2.75 F body lock to lock ratio will turn out to be some thing like 2.25-2.0 lock to lock ratio in our Fiero

No one has answered my question yet, about the bolt mounts.

It you didnt really want power steering but needed a better rack could these racks be used with the lines plugged? I mean to me good racks are hard to find and some racks arn't worth rebuilding anyway. If you could use these racks without the power steering that would be good enough for most people.

Cut the mounts off of the F body rack and modify the rack like the XR4TI rack. That way all the mods are on the rack not the car. If you ever want to put the manual rack back in then you are screwd by modifying the cross member. If you ever got a better Fiero and wanted to swap the power rack over to your better Fiero then it is a bolt on job, if you only mod the rack. I wont change the Fiero cross member. That does not mean you cant modify the cross member. I want a "bolt on" power steering rack. So ALL my mods will be on the rack only

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Yes and no ...Total steering raito is off because the rack does not have enough travle for long steering arms then the rack will hit the stops before the wheels turn all the way.

OK. Now I see what your saying. That's a good question. To limit future confusion, maybe we should refer to that as "total travel" of the rack (i.e., how much travel does the rack have lock-to-lock). Idealy, if the total travel is the same, and the adaptors that Fieroobsessed is making make the two rack the same overall length (or width -- depending on your prespective), then the steering geometry would remain unchanged.

Roy

Yes and no
If the F body rack and Fiero rack were exactly the same, they could still work differently in the two cars if they had different lenght steering arms. The steering arm is a lever on the wheel bearing carier/hub/knuckel that the outer ball joint bolts to. the lenghth of the steering arm does affect the total steering ratio and how far the wheel turns. The rack is just one part of the steering system
I am going to look at an F body rack to see what I can find out.

Getting back to a few of the questions.
Standard on the F bod rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock with a travel of 4-7/8" The 84 fiero with its terrible turning radius was about 4.5" so its got enough range, Im going to grind the stops on the spindles to decrease my turning radius. The length with the little adapters from the end to end is 28-3/4. Like I said, when you put the tie rods on the end, but them up against the ends of the rack, they are in the exact right place. After Im done installing the rack, I will have to make stop shims for the end of travel. The rack will go beyond its origional limits with the Fiero tie rods. I have started to mount the rack and found that there is a bit of cutting involved, Like
1985FieroGT said:
"For the mounts on the rack, how about just grinding and modifying the cross member for any metal thats in the way."

You hit the nail on the head. Thats the way to do it. You do need jigs to help locate the "correct" position for the rack. So far, I had to cut two good size holes in the cross member for the two rack mount things (dont know what to call them) and another decent size notch to clear the steering input assembly. Im still fitting it and cutting. I also needed to make jigs to locate the rack properly before cutting the old perches off.

Rickady88GT, yes its a cast iron steering assembly in an aluminum rack, the angle is pretty different, but with the Fiero's steering shaft, it works fine. I'll get more pics for everyone tonight. I used a 97 Firebird rack, Ill get back on with more details (gotta check the reciept) and the length.

My goal is to have no effect on geometry when its done.

Edited to fix rack length, It's not 18¾ but 28¾.
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84 Indy Quad 4
88 Silver GT 5 SP

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 11-19-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: ...After Im done installing the rack, I will have to make stop shims for the end of travel. The rack will go beyond its origional limits with the Fiero tie rods.

So, are you saying that the total travel of the F-body rack is less that that of the Fiero rack? And, that "stop shims" need to be fabracated to keep the rack from over traveling it's design limits?

Roy

I'm getting a 200 rack, and they changed a little bit in 1998. I wonder what differences there will be, it came from a 3.8.

No and yes. The F body rack will travel about 1/2" more overall then the Fiero normally uses. As far as I can tell, the fiero used 4.5" of rack travel, limited by stops on the spindle. On the P/S rack, the old tie rods were what stopped the rack from over traveling its limits, but since the new tie rods are 5/8" farther apart then the origional, it goes beyond its origional design of about 5". It scares me to think that it might be mashing the pinion into the rack where there aren't any teeth to mesh with. So, to be on the safe side I'm making stop shims. When its all done, I should have a tighter radius then before.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: No and yes. The F body rack will travel about 1/2" more overall then the Fiero normally uses. As far as I can tell, the fiero used 4.5" of rack travel, limited by stops on the spindle. On the P/S rack, the old tie rods were what stopped the rack from over traveling its limits, but since the new tie rods are 5/8" farther apart then the origional, it goes beyond its origional design of about 5". ...

Ok... Now I'm a little confused . If the total travel on the Fiero is 4.5" and the F-body design limits are 5", why do you need stops? Are you removing so much of the Fiero's stops (on the spindle and A-arm) that you're afraid the total travel of the F-body rack will exceed the 5" design limit? And, while not necessary for the F-body rack to work properly, you're decision to remove the stops is to increase your turning radius?

Roy

I forgot to mension why I'm using stops on the rack as opposed to the stops that are on the spindles. Without power steering when you hit the stop on the spindle, you know not to put all your muscle into the wheel to force the stops beyond there strength, Power steering does not know these limits, When you hit the stop with power steering it could put a few hundred lbs of force on the stops (and the tie rods, balljoints, A arms...) and could bend or break the stops, or something else for that matter. Fyi, the Fiero rack has a total travel 6.25" but the stops on the spindles limit it to 4.5" I would like to take them off, and limit the rack itself to the 5". The P/S rack could go I believe about 5.5+" but I dont want to exceed the origional application's limits. The 42' turning radius of my 84 is unnacceptable, especially for a car with such a short wheel base. 42' is normal for a SUV.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 11-19-2003).]

OK. I think I've got it now. And, of course, that brings up the next question... What is your idea for the new bump-stops?

Roy

What about the bump stops? Did I miss something?

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: What about the bump stops? Did I miss something?

Sorry, turn-stops

quote Originally posted by Rickady: Can you measure the extct length of the F body rack gear with out the ends on it?

27-3/16"

Edited, because I used the wrong quote, oops.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 11-20-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: 27-3/16"

Is that the total length of the modified original 84 rack? If so, that makes the modified rack 1 9/16" wider. Or rather, approximately 3/4" wider per side. Correct?

Roy

The 27 3/16" Is the exact length of the F body rack before I welded the little studs into it. And the 84 rack is 28 3/4", so, your math adds up fine. 3/4" is about right. I just went by what it took to make the F body rack exactly as long as the Fiero's.

Now for some minor updates...
I am attempting to fit the rack onto the crossmember. And the poor crossmember is getting alittle cut up.

And heres the preliminary fit, with just enough metal cut away to fit the rack into its proper location

There is still alot of cutting to do to get my little custom rack supports to fit and maybe this weekend will see the completion of the mounting.

And, for Rickady88GT who wanted a picture of the powersteering spool

Oh, and just alittle curious, 88 Fiero racks are constructed almost exactly the same way the F bod rack is. (pinned in spool, aluminum rack housing, Steel cylender pinned onto the aluminum housing) Maybe, just maybe... the spool will fit on a 88 rack, and just maybe the piston and housing might work, if thats what Rickady is up to with these questions...

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 11-20-2003).]

So you knew were I was going with this
I was going to see if I could get a new pinion gear made or find one that will fit the F body spool and press the power spool and cylneder from the F body onto a 88 rack and have a "Direct bolt on power steering rack" Can you help me out by measuring the diam of the rack gear with a mic or caliper?
I went to the GM dealer to get more info on the F body rack and they said that the racks for F bodies came in two ratios, standard is 3 turns lock to lock and the ws6 or handeling pakage is 2.25 lock to lock. The 2.25 rack is kind of hard to find. There is also a rack for the V6 and a rack for the V8. Not clear if there are Four different racks two for V6 two for V8. But there is definatly several different rack to chose from that came on F bodies for the gen 4's.
The question is "What F body rack is best for the Fiero?" I dont whant to get a bunch of racks to find out. So I think I am going to search for a "Good" ws6 rack off of a V8 F body and start from there. For me the only reason to do power steering is for a MUCH faster steering ratio

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 11-21-2003).]

Fierobsessed - Your install looks very do-able, even with the cutting. You could always make the cuts a little deeper and fill the cut with new metal. That should help the area regain it's strength. You could also box the bottom it strength is a concern.

Regarding the 3/4" added to the rack, do you think it's possible to shorted the F-body rack to compensate? It doesn't look like you could make you adaptors any shorter. Are you goint to cut and re-thread the tie rods by the 3/4" or do you think that there is enough adjustment?

This project is looking more do-able each time I revisit this thread.

Roy

0.985" Diameter on the rack gear.

To clear up the 3/4" thing Look at this pic. What you see is the Fiero tie rod socket adapted to the firebird rack, then the firebird tie rod next to it. This is where the firebird tie rod used to be located. You can see that the Fiero's tie rod has a stem leading upto the socket It's threaded on the inside of the stem. The firebirds is threaded on the outside and screwed into the rack. So just by putting the fiero tie rod up against the firebird's rack. it is exactly the right spot to make the distance between the tierods correct to stock specs. My little extensions just made it possible to screw on the tie rod, they are made out the ends of an old 84 rack

Heres my new jig to hold the rack in place for fitting

The brackets that will hold the rack

The other one, witch just needs to be welded.

Bump...

No real progress over the weekend, I messed up one of the rack mounts, Gotta do it over. I wasn't too pleased with the result, luckily I didn't weld them to the crossmember yet.

Bump