Much discussion has gone on about the poor 2.8 being unable to produce HP without major intake modificatons. Someone explain to me how Chevrolet was able to get the 3.1 make 160 HP, the 3.4 make 180HP and the new 3.5 make 200 HP. The 3.1 and the 3.4 appear to have basically the same intake manifold which is not that much different than the 2.8. I would like to find out what chevy did to get the same basic engine to make 60 more HP. Now I am going to just sit back, watch and read. GO!

Well, there's the obvious increases in displacement. The added displacement in itself will increase HP and torque. Also, the later 3.1 V6s had aluminum cyl heads and DIS. The 3.4 has better-flowing heads. I'm not very familiar with the 3.5.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-20-2004).]

The 3.4 also had a better cam & higher compression ratio.

The cam in the cast headed 3.4L engines out of the F-body cars is smaller than the Fiero cam.
This engine only put out 160hp stock.

The newer 3.4L engines with 180hp (cars)/185hp (vans) have aluminum heads which flow twice as good as the cast heads.
The 2000 and newer 3.4L's also have larger valves.
Compression is higher in the 3.4L engines.
The 3.1L engines were up to 170/175hp last year.
The intakes for the aluminum headed 60* V-6 engines may look simular, but they actually flow better than the Fiero intake. The problem is you cannot directly swap intakes or heads between the engines. (meaning you can't use aluminum heads with the Fiero intake nor the later intakes with the cast heads) There are some who have modified some intakes to fit, but there is nothing that is a direct swap. You also need to change pistons if you swap in the other heads.
So to utilize the aluminum heads and matching intake on a Fiero engine, You need to change pistons and you would need to modify the intake for distributor clearence. The later engines had DIS ignition systems so the upper plenums were larger.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

Orief...great info, to say the least...

Here's what I'm looking at...I'm about to get my hands on an 87 SE, with a 5 speed. I'd like to slide an early 4th gen F-body V6 into the car, with minimal problems, but max performance. What can/should I do and look for? I guess I'm asking about the potential aftermarket support (cams, valvetrain, exhaust, etc.) for the 'old' 3.4 vs the newer aluminum head engines.

From what I've read, physically putting the engine in won't be an issue; its the go-fast goodies that I'm looking for guidance on.

thx!
Byrdman

quote Originally posted by MCKNGBRD: Orief...great info, to say the least... Here's what I'm looking at...I'm about to get my hands on an 87 SE, with a 5 speed. I'd like to slide an early 4th gen F-body V6 into the car, with minimal problems, but max performance. What can/should I do and look for? I guess I'm asking about the potential aftermarket support (cams, valvetrain, exhaust, etc.) for the 'old' 3.4 vs the newer aluminum head engines. From what I've read, physically putting the engine in won't be an issue; its the go-fast goodies that I'm looking for guidance on. thx! Byrdman

For cast headed 3.4L engines like the ones used in the F-body cars or the 3.4HT crate engine, There is a small aftermarket.
It all depends on what you want out of the engine in terms of power.

First intake/fuel delivery:
With the Fiero intake you are limited to about 190hp normally aspirated due to it's restrictive nature.
There is one aftermarket intake available. It is made by Edelbrock and is designed for a 2-bbl or 4-bbl carb. You can also use the Holley 670cfm TBI Pro-jection set-up with this intake. If you can go carb'd (if you have emission testing this most likely won't pass) or the Holley Pro-jection system you can get around 220-230hp.

Engine:
There are heavy duty lifters, pushrods, roller rockers, roller timing chain, and a decent selection of cams available from a few aftermarket companies. There are even a few solid lift cams over .500" of lift. The cast heads can be ported to breathe as almost good as the Gen II aluminum heads. The 3.4L has a stock compression of 9.0:1 and with a little head shaving/decking can easily get to 9.5:1. You can get forged pistons custom made, But I don't know of any that are available off-the-shelf. The popular cams are the Crane H260 and H272. The H260 would be more emission compliant than the H272, But as with any cam the H272's higher lift will get you more power. There are also many other cams that can be bought to match your particular set-up as well as many will even do a custom grind cam for the engine.

Exhaust:
There is one set of full headers and a few performance manifolds available. There is a Borla system available, and some have done custom exhaust set-ups with Spintek and Flowmaster mufflers.

Forced Induction:
There is a turbo kit that will get you around 250-260hp just bolting it on. (As with any turbo engine, depending on how you set the engine up, more power can be done.)

There are 2 different styles of superchargers avaliable. One for the Fiero intake style set-up (requires you to remove the A/C compressor) and another one that is a "Roots" style (mounts in place of the intake manifold) can be used with the Pro-Jection system or a carb.

and finally there is the NOS way. With a 4-bbl carb'd or Pro-Jection set-up and a decent NOS set-up, you can get over 300hp.

This is just a basic run down of what is readily available.
Basically you need to figure out how much you want to spend and how you want the engine set-up.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-04-2004).]

Oreif, can you use the holly pro-jection set up with a turbo?

[This message has been edited by Kswiss (edited 03-04-2004).]

this is an intresting subject. As I may now be looking at the 3.4L as it appears a turbo may be out of the question right now. I have been told the the 3.4L camaro engine is great, but have also been told that there is no way that it would fit a fiero. So that only leaves the luminas and the likes( guessing here as I can't remeber what all had 3.4's).

I to am looking a getting somewhere around 200hp. But want the look of the orginal engine bay. That way it does not look to obvoius.

Thanks Pat

86 SE V6

By identifing engines by displacement alone is cause for confusion. The 2.8, like in the Fiero, is just like the 3.1 and the 3.4. This family of engines share the same external size and the same iron heads. The iron head 3.4 was available in the Camaro and fits into the Fiero as a near direct replacement. Then there was the aluminum head with smaller combustion chamber in the head and dished pistons. You can't use an engine that had aluminum heads by simply replacing the heads. The compression ratio would be too low.You can't use tha aluminum heads with the Fiero's intake and exhaust. They don't match up.Then there is the overhead cam engine in several configurations that are all quite different from the cam in block engine.

quote Originally posted by Kswiss: Oreif, can you use the holly pro-jection set up with a turbo?

I don't know if the Holley Pro-Jection throttle body is "blow thru" compatable. Meaning the turbo would have to blow into the throttle body. You could call or Email Holley and they could answer that question better. There are carb's available (at a high cost) that can be used this way. The Roots type Supercharger would be the easier way to go for forced induction using the Pro-Jection or carb. The Fageol supercharger is already set-up for it.

http://www.fageolsuperchargers.com/

quote Originally posted by Shianne: this is an intresting subject. As I may now be looking at the 3.4L as it appears a turbo may be out of the question right now. I have been told the the 3.4L camaro engine is great, but have also been told that there is no way that it would fit a fiero. So that only leaves the luminas and the likes( guessing here as I can't remeber what all had 3.4's). I to am looking a getting somewhere around 200hp. But want the look of the orginal engine bay. That way it does not look to obvoius. Thanks Pat 86 SE V6

The Fiero can fit any 60* V-6 (2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.4 twin cam), the 3800 series engines (including the supercharged engines), the 4.3L V-6, the 4.9L V-8, the Northstar V-8 and a Chevy small block 350.
The 3.1 and 3.4L engines with cast heads can use all the Fiero parts (Intake, valve covers, exhaust, etc) so it would look like the stock engine. The 3.1L is nothing more than a 2.8L with a different crankshaft and pistons. The 3.4L is basically a larger bore. (the production 3.4L are cast with the larger bores and some have bored a 2.8L to a 3.4L but the cylinder walls get real thin) The outside physical dimensions are the same. Do a search on engine swaps and you'll find just about any GM engine will fit.
Whoever told you the Camaro/Firebird V-6's won't fit is wrong.
Go here to see how well a V-8 fits:
www.v8archie.com

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-04-2004).]

Intresting I talked to the fella at a camro store he told me again that there is no way that the rear drive 2.8 or 3.4l engines form the camro will fit the fiero, he was sure that the front drive engine and transmission used in the feiro had a different bolt patteren than the rear drive units.

Anyhow if that is not the case that's great. At anycase though is there any benfit going to a 3.4 from a camro over the front drive units??

pat

86 SE V6

quote Originally posted by Shianne: Intresting I talked to the fella at a camro store he told me again that there is no way that the rear drive 2.8 or 3.4l engines form the camro will fit the fiero, he was sure that the front drive engine and transmission used in the feiro had a different bolt patteren than the rear drive units. Anyhow if that is not the case that's great. At anycase though is there any benfit going to a 3.4 from a camro over the front drive units?? pat 86 SE V6

The difference between the F-body 3.4L and the FWD versions, Is the F-body engines have the cast heads so all you do is swap over the Fiero intake, valve covers, and ignition system, It will look exactly like the 2.8L but with more power and it will run off the stock ECM. The FWD 3.4L engines have aluminum heads and DIS ignition. You cannot swap over the Fiero externals as they will not bolt up. You would also need to piggy-back the ECM from the donor car to run the engine. You cannot put cast heads on a 3.4L that had aluminum heads unless you swap over the pistons. So it makes it easier to just get the F-body engine.

Rock on, Oreif....thanks a million...

I'm most likely going to try to salvage a 3.4 V6 from an F-bod, then tear it down and start a rebuild, with fresh internals (this will be a long-term project, as the car I'm getting is 'supposedly' in pretty good shape mechanically), a warmed up cam, 1.6 full roller rockers (are roller lifters available?), mild porting on the heads, clean up the Fiero intake, and either fab or pick up a set of headers. Probably will end up with a power adder at some point, too.

One big question I have is about the electronics...what will I need to pull from the donor car, what options are there out there for electronic controls, that kind of stuff?

Based on what I described above, I'm hoping to hit the 200 rwhp mark, with the juice pushing it over 250...sound feasible?

thx!
Byrdman

quote Originally posted by MCKNBRD: Rock on, Oreif....thanks a million... I'm most likely going to try to salvage a 3.4 V6 from an F-bod, then tear it down and start a rebuild, with fresh internals (this will be a long-term project, as the car I'm getting is 'supposedly' in pretty good shape mechanically), a warmed up cam, 1.6 full roller rockers (are roller lifters available?), mild porting on the heads, clean up the Fiero intake, and either fab or pick up a set of headers. Probably will end up with a power adder at some point, too. One big question I have is about the electronics...what will I need to pull from the donor car, what options are there out there for electronic controls, that kind of stuff? Based on what I described above, I'm hoping to hit the 200 rwhp mark, with the juice pushing it over 250...sound feasible? thx! Byrdman

You won't get 200rwhp with the Fiero intake. It is too restrictive. You may get about 190hp at the flywheel (about 170rwhp). As for 250 with juice, that is possible. 1FST2M6 had a warmed over 2.8L with a shot of juice and he hit 260hp on his dyno and ran in the mid 12's in the 1/4 mile.
Forget the 1.6 rockers. If your changing the cam, use the cam to get the lift you want. Especially if your running juice.
Roller cams/lifters will not work. The block would need to be modified to accept them. Not sure if it's possible.

You don't need anything but the motor from the F-body. You will use the Fiero computer and ignition to run it.

So, what is the power difference between the 2.8 vs. 3.1...???

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AKA. "SmoothGT"....
Custom Built W I D E BODY~GT!!

"I would rather be hatefully remembered, then just forgotten!!"

quote Originally posted by Oreif: You won't get 200rwhp with the Fiero intake. It is too restrictive. You may get about 190hp at the flywheel (about 170rwhp). As for 250 with juice, that is possible. 1FST2M6 had a warmed over 2.8L with a shot of juice and he hit 260hp on his dyno and ran in the mid 12's in the 1/4 mile. Forget the 1.6 rockers. If your changing the cam, use the cam to get the lift you want. Especially if your running juice. Roller cams/lifters will not work. The block would need to be modified to accept them. Not sure if it's possible. You don't need anything but the motor from the F-body. You will use the Fiero computer and ignition to run it.

Wow...more great info, Orief...thanks again. If I had enough posts, I'd give you a positive!

What are the stock lifters? These are plain flat tappet, right? Are they hydraulic? I'm wondering, because on www.60degreev6.com, they have a few cams listed that are hydraulic, and I'd be totally screwed if I got the wrong one.

As far as roller...well, lets say I've done a roller conversion in an SBC...so I have an idea of what would be involved...I'm just wondering if there is room in the valley under the lower plenum for a spider to hold the rollers...

thx again!

Byrdman

quote Originally posted by Shianne: Intresting I talked to the fella at a camro store he told me again that there is no way that the rear drive 2.8 or 3.4l engines form the camro will fit the fiero, he was sure that the front drive engine and transmission used in the feiro had a different bolt patteren than the rear drive units. Anyhow if that is not the case that's great. At anycase though is there any benfit going to a 3.4 from a camro over the front drive units?? pat 86 SE V6

I think the difference they are referring to is that the starter has to be moved to the other side of the block. Requires drilling and tapping 2 new holes. There is a template available at one of the vendors. (I don't remember which one though). Someone on here can tell us.

Dave

More, more, more, more, more, more, info

Thanks to Oreif for the great info !!!!!
I learn a lot in less time

this is my 3.4L project

http://www.my-fiero.com/pictures/3.4-project/34_project-page-1.htm

and for MCKNGBRD
this are the stok (3.4L) lifters
http://www.my-fiero.com/pictures/3.4-project/34_project-page-7.htm

Stan

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Fiero GT 1988 2.8V6

my_fiero@hotmail.com
www.my-fiero.com

Don't forget the Fiero 2.8 (and F-body 3.4) are Generation I engines with iron heads.
The GenII 2.8's and 3.1's used aluminum heads that flowed better. The GenII 2.8 has more horsepower than the Fiero 2.8 (about 150, I believe). Then there's the GenIII 3400SFI with different aluminum heads and a roller cam and it puts out between 170-185HP depending on the application. So most of the power improvements are due to better cylinder head, intake, and exhaust design.

Has anyone tried using the camaro intake with the 3.4? I know there would be some wiring involved, but for some that would be easier than fabricating mounts for an aluminum head 3.4 (think accessories-alt, a/c etc.). All I hear about is how the Fiero intake is too restrictive.....why not use the intake + computer that was designed for it? Would there be any noticable gain in power? I only ask because I already have a 3.4 with the Fiero intake and would like to avoid yet another swap.

For those who want to retain the "stock" look, please ignore this post.

Good question, Coop88...I'm wondering the same thing myself...but what I'd like to do is modify the bottom of the Fiero intake, between the throttle valve and the 'body' of the 'spider' that the intake makes. Why couldn't you take that part, flip it over, and cut a section out, weld in a piece of aluminum pipe (or whatever) and make it a little larger? I have the feeling that the stock intake is restricted mostly right there.

Just a thought...

BTW, thanks a ton for the info above...I'm learning!

Byrdman

quote Originally posted by Coop88: Has anyone tried using the camaro intake with the 3.4? I know there would be some wiring involved, but for some that would be easier than fabricating mounts for an aluminum head 3.4 (think accessories-alt, a/c etc.). All I hear about is how the Fiero intake is too restrictive.....why not use the intake + computer that was designed for it? Would there be any noticable gain in power? I only ask because I already have a 3.4 with the Fiero intake and would like to avoid yet another swap. For those who want to retain the "stock" look, please ignore this post.

The stock 3.4L in the F-body cars is 160hp. The intake on these will flow 360cfm. (The bored Fiero intake is only 325cfm)
So yes there is more room for flow. The only thing is, The cast heads will limit you to about 175hp (unless ported). The F-body folks have gotten the 3.4L engines (with mods like cam, ported heads, and custom PROM's) up to the 210-215hp range with ease. Which is about 20-25hp more than with the Fiero intake. I think the reason no one does it, Is because if your going to piggy-back another ECM, then it would make more sense to get the aluminum headed 3.4L with the series III heads and build from there. You could then get them into the 230hp range.The stock series III heads will out-flow even the most aggressively ported cast heads. The series III heads ported will actually out-flow the stock 4-valve heads used on the 3.4L TDC. These intakes are also much better flowing than the cast head intakes.

quote Originally posted by MCKNGBRD: Good question, Coop88...I'm wondering the same thing myself...but what I'd like to do is modify the bottom of the Fiero intake, between the throttle valve and the 'body' of the 'spider' that the intake makes. Why couldn't you take that part, flip it over, and cut a section out, weld in a piece of aluminum pipe (or whatever) and make it a little larger? I have the feeling that the stock intake is restricted mostly right there. Just a thought... BTW, thanks a ton for the info above...I'm learning! Byrdman

The restriction is in the upper plenum. The plenum throat and the runner size are where your restrictions are. A few people have made custom upper plenums and utilizing dual throttle bodies, have increased flow tremendously. (400-425cfm)

Wow, I've learned a lot myself. So let me make sure I have this correct:

- 3.4 from F-body bolts into Fiero and uses stock Fiero intake/exhaust/computer/flywheel/mounts/accessories/etc
- The only mod required is the relocation of the starter motor to the opposite side of the block
- Swap will take Fiero from 140hp to approx. 170hp ... correct?

Is that it?

How does the stock Fiero fuel system compensate for the added displacement?

------------------
Still plays with cars!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The stock 3.4L in the F-body cars is 160hp. The intake on these will flow 360cfm. (The bored Fiero intake is only 325cfm) So yes there is more room for flow. The only thing is, The cast heads will limit you to about 175hp (unless ported). The F-body folks have gotten the 3.4L engines (with mods like cam, ported heads, and custom PROM's) up to the 210-215hp range with ease. Which is about 20-25hp more than with the Fiero intake. I think the reason no one does it, Is because if your going to piggy-back another ECM, then it would make more sense to get the aluminum headed 3.4L with the series III heads and build from there. You could then get them into the 230hp range.The stock series III heads will out-flow even the most aggressively ported cast heads. The series III heads ported will actually out-flow the stock 4-valve heads used on the 3.4L TDC. These intakes are also much better flowing than the cast head intakes. The restriction is in the upper plenum. The plenum throat and the runner size are where your restrictions are. A few people have made custom upper plenums and utilizing dual throttle bodies, have increased flow tremendously. (400-425cfm)

Okay, first question is.
What the hell is a plenum? Sorry, I'm still learning
Second question is, if the 3.4 is rated 160HP in the F-body, after you put the Fiero Intake on, wouldn't you essentually be losing some of that?
Thus maybe you're at 150HP by the time you put it in? Thus, I cannot see the point in putting a 3.4 at all.
I want to put a 3.4 in, WHEN I get my car, but it seems rather pointless after reading this post. Unless I can actually regain that power back by some simple mod or some such thing. So whats the deal?

Plenums:

Top is Fiero, bottom is 3100/ 3400 SFI (NOT 3.1 or 3.4 which refers to GEN1 or 2)

3.4 SFI Camaro (NOT 3400, 3400 or 3100 implies GEN3 motor)

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Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA and...
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-26-2004).]

Ahhh! Thanks for clearing that up

Also, what about the 3.4 DOHC? You can't just swap the heads, etc, right?
Cause the DOHC has alumminum(?) heads and such?

Here are some pics on a 3.4L '95 camaro engine swap

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/041835.html

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'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap in progress!!!!!!!!
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/
Rate me if I'm usefull

This site supplies most of the "nuts and bolts" info for the 3.4 swap.
http://www.thefierofactory.com/34.htm

The template to redrill the starter holes is available from Rodney Dickman
www.rodneydickman.com
He also sells a few other useful bits and pieces pertaining to the swap.

You will need a neutral (zero) balanced flywheel or flexplate. The only Fieros that came with this flywheel were the 88 2.8s.
You can grab a flywheel or flexplate from any 88 or newer FWD 60* V-6 vehicle. The 3.4 TDC flywheel has been mentioned. It's a bit heavier that the Fiero flywheel, but if you want to buy a new one, it's way cheaper.
Also, strangely enough, the manual tranny flywheel for a 2.2 Ecotec, as installed in an S-10, will also work.
You can use your original 2.8 harmonic damper if it's in good shape.

While you've got the engine apart, for cripe's sake at least get the intakes ported. All three of them.
Darrell Morse can do them.
Wish I would have gotten mine done, instead of just the TB and plenum.

There's a guy on here that's in the process of having new upper manifolds fabricated for our engines. They are supposed to flow huge amounts of air. He apparently has been very successful with a similar design on an MR2, and he's trying to market to the GM 60 degree V-6 crowd. (Which means us, the Camaro guys and the S-10 guys.)
It sounds very promising We shall see.

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.
Read Nealz Nuze!