I do not wish to be redundant on the subject,but it may make it easier for someone on a search later.
That said, I read a post here some time ago... this is how many of my fairytale projects start... about someone who had put an 1988 front suspension in an earlier model Fiero. Well, I had already converted the rear suspension from an 87 set-up to an 88 and wow!~ it did not feel like the same car. At high speed turns the rear would fishtail with the 87 rear and adding a sway bar helped but created a bit of oversteer and bushing upgrades, tires nothing did what the 88 rear accomplished. So, I began thinking about the front of the car.

If the rear swap could make such a difference, then what would front mods do? First I picked up a set of drop spindles from street dreams (2") and they were a great product and added heavier springs. They did not do much to improve the handeling and the car was a bit low for everyday driving (great for show or a kit) and there was no adjustability. Then I installed the Held tubular suspension kit, this was a great improvement. the car cornered like nothing I had ever driven. The system is adjustable, and the arms provided crisper handeling. I was pretty happy, but as an owner of an 88 I still missed the tight turning radius on my 87. Well, not satisfied to leave well enough alone I considered a 1988 front end swap.

First I located a doner and begun negotiating the front end price. I found a pull yourself parts yard that had an 88 formula and the guy there wanted 575.00$ for the front parts- I told him I could buy a whole coupe for that price and we finally agreed on 250.00$ and tax (I spent a bit more as I missed a few items on the first run at it). I have heard stories of 100.00$ for a whole front end, and although that may be true in some areas, not so around here!

This is a list of what I remember pulling: front cradle/crossmember with bolts and frame clips, upper and lower a-arms, kunckles with bearings, rotors, calipers, end links,brake lines and brackets(the L-shaped brackets that mount the brake lines to the body), left and right coolant lines, two front and right rear stainless brake lines under the body, automatic trans line (runs front to rear), under radiator support(the edges are cut differently from 87 to 88), shaft from steering column to rack and pinion (87 shaft is longer than 88), shocks, upper and lower ball joints, and the rack and pinion with tie rod ends. I think that is everything. The AC lines and Heater lines clear fine from the 87. you will also need a set of new radiator expansion bushing/bolts (I could not locate a metric original so i picked up a pair of 1/4" at the automotive paint supply).

Now there is the list of necessary tools. There is welding involved, but there are reasonably priced ways to weld yourself. I used a grinder, a dremmel w/cut-off disc, drill, drill bits, chisel, pinch, mallet,spot weld removing drill bits, mig welder, and the obvious assorted hand tools, jacks, jack stands. You will also need some galvanized paint (available at the wedin supply or hardware store)and touch-up paint spray cans.

As for the difficult for some, the welding, there are a couple of possibilities if you can not find some friend to held you. There are small portable gas welders available or even small torch kits for between 150.00$ to 250.00$. I used a mig, but looking back, considering the tight space I was working in, a gas torch would have been easier and I could have made nicer welds. I would pick up some scrap metal and practice for a while before gas welding because it is easy to burn holes in metal quickly without some practice. a mig, on the other hand , can be operated by a chimp. I have tig welded, gas welded and stick welded pipe and had never used a mig. When I finally used one i ran two or three beads and went straight to work fabricating with it. A moderate mig runs about 400.00$ on up for something nice. I would recommend a unit that uses shielding gas instead of flux core for a cleaner weld. I will stop here o welding, but can recommend a book called the welder's handbook that runs around 20.00$ that is great at explaining a lot about welding and what is recommended.

I started the process by buying all the parts first, then removing the entire front end and above mentioned lines etc.... remove the inner front spare tire plastic liner and associated parts. Once everything was remover drilled off the rear brackets. I used the spot weld drill bit.This little gem I picked one up at the local automotive paint supply and it is worth the 20.00$. If you have never seen one, it is a small round bi-metal looking bit with a punch in the center. This is the cleanest way to remove the lower a-arm brackets.
Then, I cut the frame along the body stamp lines near where the rear brackets were. I only cut the sides an then tapped the bottom piece of steel upward then welded the seam on either side. The cuts done, I removed the lower radiator bracket and replaced it with the 88. Then I moved the cradle into place with a jack and aligned the cradle for marking to drill the new holes. Now this is the one item in the install that I will never know what would have worked better. I will explain, there is a aligning pin on the cradle on the drivers side (left side). I aligned the pin with the frame and then measured the outside of the frame to a point on the cradle. I got the same maesurement on both sides and went with it. On the inside of the frame I measured in several spots and could not seem to get it even in measurement on both sides. Looking back I am not sure or not if it would have been better or not to cut off the pin. All I know is that I did use the aligning pin and the shop that did the alignment said everything looked square and I have perfect steering, so only time will tell.

When you are ready to drill your holes for the new bolts and brackets, I recommend cuting the small rectanguar holes( I used the dremmel with a reinforced disc to cut the slots for the 6 in frame bolt mounting brackets) first. From the rectangular holes you can knock/chisel out the old bolt backing plates. These backing plates must be removed or the drill will wander when you try to drill through them as your new holes will only hit half the plate. Another tip is the four main cradle frame brackets are 2 different sizes; 2 short and 2 long ( I forgot about this when i cut my holes and had to modify 2 of the bolt inner frame brackets). Cut the rectangular holes for the 2 forward bolts on the inside and the two aft bolts on the outside. Use the longer bolt brackets in the front and the shorter in the back.

I then used some scrap steel to make brackets for the two mounts at the back of the 88 front cradle (the 87 cross-member has only 4 under frame bolts as the 88 has the same 4 plus 2 added in the rear (where new brackets will go) and 2 front on each side of the radiator.

A little more measuring, a few taps and the front cradle was in place. Then i installed the trans line, brake lines, a-arms and knuckles and replaced the steering shaft and cut the plastic boot before installing the rack pinion last besides the front plastic liner.

The car drives like my 88 and I love it except now I have to lower it again!!!

I hope this was interesting and is of help to someone considering the 88 fromt swap.

[This message has been edited by David Gamache (edited 03-12-2004).]

frame cut, welded, and bolt access holes cut-note the forward holes should have been cut on the inside of the frame as i mentioned because of the different length of the 88 bolt brackets.

[This message has been edited by David Gamache (edited 03-12-2004).]

Not to rain on your parade or anything, as im not 100% sure here, but 90% of the people ive talked to about this, said that the 88 rear suspension and the 84-87 front suspension was the best that it could get, it was much better than the 88 suspension all around.

I might not be 100% accurate, but it seems like getting rid of all your greatly modified stuff, for a stock 88 setup, is kinda like walking backwards.

matthew

Well my dad just rebuilt his and kicks mine in the nuts mine is a SE 86 lowerd poly and bigger sway bar and KYB's. His just is lowered and poly it has NO BODY ROLL AND new shocks. It handels so much better, but now i only have better brakes then my dad.

Joe Sokol III

I'll just start with my 88 and add the lowering springs, poly, etc.

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: Not to rain on your parade or anything, as im not 100% sure here, but 90% of the people ive talked to about this, said that the 88 rear suspension and the 84-87 front suspension was the best that it could get, it was much better than the 88 suspension all around. I might not be 100% accurate, but it seems like getting rid of all your greatly modified stuff, for a stock 88 setup, is kinda like walking backwards. matthew

Having done this conversion myself, I would say that it is worth it. The handling and feel is much improved + you gain vented front discs as well. I'll take a 88 front and rear suspension combo over a pre 88 front with rear 88 cradle combo anyday.

Nice work, David, and very nice write up! A plus for you.

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: Not to rain on your parade or anything, as im not 100% sure here, but 90% of the people ive talked to about this, said that the 88 rear suspension and the 84-87 front suspension was the best that it could get, it was much better than the 88 suspension all around. matthew

George Ryan is the one that started this and frankly I don't agree.

The pre '88 front suspension has a terrible camber curve -- the wheel gains positive camber on bump! The pre '88 also has terrible brakes. I've owned, driven, and raced both and it's '88 only for me from now on.

------------------
Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase: Nice work, David, and very nice write up! A plus for you. George Ryan is the one that started this and frankly I don't agree. The pre '88 front suspension has a terrible camber curve -- the wheel gains positive camber on bump! The pre '88 also has terrible brakes. I've owned, driven, and raced both and it's '88 only for me from now on.

I can completly understand that you guys dont like the stock 84-87 setup, but he had the complete held motorsports tubular front suspension with coilovers, and he also ALREADY had vented front grand am brakes, Dont get me wrong, but wouldnt that be better than the 88 front suspension?

there is a complete 88 coupe in the junkyard here, i could get the front/rear from for $350 or so, but i never really seen where the front would be much better, can a modded 88 front be better than a modded 84-87 front? i figured that there were 10x more aftermarket for the 84-87's

matthew

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: I can completly understand that you guys dont like the stock 84-87 setup, but he had the complete held motorsports tubular front suspension with coilovers, and he also ALREADY had vented front grand am brakes, Dont get me wrong, but wouldnt that be better than the 88 front suspension? there is a complete 88 coupe in the junkyard here, i could get the front/rear from for $350 or so, but i never really seen where the front would be much better, can a modded 88 front be better than a modded 84-87 front? i figured that there were 10x more aftermarket for the 84-87's matthew

Matthew,
With mods its possible to improve the pre 88 to work great as the autox guys have done. Personally, I would take a modded 88 front over a modded pre 88. The suspension geometry is better on the 88 front, the control arms are longer, the coilover type shocksetup is a better design + the vented brakes. I will say that the pre 88 is lighter in weight though and that there wouldnt be as much of a problem getting parts as there would be for the 88. Ifyou use vented grand am brake with the calipers up front then you will gain some unsprung weight.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 03-12-2004).]

FORMULA 88 is probably right, start with an 88 and add poly bushings an lowering springs, but how about adjustable coil-over racing shocks. (Tim the Tool Man Taylor Grunt ARR ARR ARR UHHH!)

Suspension, like anything else on a car can be qualified by the intended use. I could put a new vette motor in my car but it would not be practical to drive to work every day at 65 mph. However, as a weekend driver or auto crosser it could be great. My reasons for changing the suspension from modified to stock 88 had Pros and Cons that I will name a few.

The 88 rear suspension with the 87 Held front set up and Grand Am vented brakes did have advantages. In my opinion it allowed the car to take a turn at unbelievable high speed, looked great extreamly low, was adjustable in height, very responsive, the rotors etc are much cheaper and the braking was great. Was it better than the stock 88 front... perhaps... should I have left the front end alone... maybe... would I recommend it to someone else, sure. The one area of the Held suspension that needs improvement is the upper a-arms. The foriegn car specialist are brilliant here. A good foriegn set-up will include fully adjustable upper a-arms and held does not. If you use the Held system at stock height, no problem. If you lower it a bit, OK. If you go extreame, them there is no adjustment for the camber and you can be 3 or more degrees off causing inner premature tire wear. This can be easily delt with but just something to think about.

Held set-up

The 88 upgraded all around on an 87. The ride is smooooth, the turning radius is much tighter. I can turn around on my street without doing a two point turn. The cornering is almost as good as the 88/87 set-up and that is stock (without poly bushings, lowered or higher spring rates) on a side note, my other 88 fiero has 350 lb/in custom springs and an adjustable front end I designed that does perfrom just as well(pictured above), actually better, than the modified 88/87 set-up. The 88 brakes are not as good as the Grand Am conversion. The 88 brakes are ok, but admittedly I do miss the vented Grand
Am's brakes. I also miss the low street look that definately turned heads, but I don't miss scraping curbs (of course I could have raised it back up a little, but it just looked too cool). My wife could care less about suspenison but she loves the 88 set-up and now takes my car a lot more. This can be a plus or minus.

The question, should I have left it alone? probably yes. But I read it could be done so I got the itch and tried it. Once I started, there was no going back. If someone wants to improve the handeling of an 87 or earlier Fiero and they do not have 1,500.00$ or more extra bucks but they do have around 500.00$ then this 88 front swap might be something to think about and that is why I posted this information. I read about engine swaps and have tinkered there as well. Was the stock motor OK... perhaps, but we are Fiero owners who just like to tinker. Otherwise I guess I would have bought a new car : ) Well, I am off to cut the roof off and re-frame my 88 for a targa top... happy motoring and thanks, DG

[This message has been edited by David Gamache (edited 03-12-2004).]

quote Originally posted by David Gamache: Well, I am off to cut the roof off and re-frame my 88 for a targa top... happy motoring and thanks, DG

Hi David,
I am doing the same thing on a Formula. I was going to do a ttop conversion but got outbid on the conversion kit. I think the Targa is a better idea anyway.

I know what you mean about the targa perhaps being a better idea than a t-top. I have a set of fiero t-tops sitting in the garage, but have been reluctant to install it. I just could not decide if a targa or t-top would be better. I had t-tops on a Trans Am once and liked it. I had a targa on my vette and liked it better. I had a hard top on the fiero, then I put in a sunroof, it's nice, but....

[This message has been edited by David Gamache (edited 03-12-2004).]

quote Originally posted by David Gamache: I know what you mean about the targa perhaps being a better idea than a t-top. I have a set of fiero t-tops sitting in the garage, but have been reluctant to install it. I just could not decide if a targa or t-top would be better. I had t-tops on a Trans Am once and liked it. I had a targa on my vette and liked it better. I had a hard top on the fiero, then I put in a sunroof, it's nice, but....

David,
I've had ttops on 2 Trans ams and a Camaro and although I liked them, I liked my Ferrari 308 targa much better, wish I still had it. I might just invest in a 308 kit since I'm converting a Formula to targa and get some of that fun back that I had in the 308. According to some threads on PFF There used to be a targa kit available, I dont know why company didnt continue making them unless it was too expensive.

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: I can completly understand that you guys dont like the stock 84-87 setup, but he had the complete held motorsports tubular front suspension with coilovers, and he also ALREADY had vented front grand am brakes, Dont get me wrong, but wouldnt that be better than the 88 front suspension?

No, the problem with the '84 - '87 front suspension is geometry. The Held tubular control arms use the stock mounting points so they don't change the suspension geometry. They lower control arm allows the use of a coil over shock so you can adjust ride height. The upper control arm doesn't do much except look cool.

quote Originally posted by David Gamache: The 88 brakes are not as good as the Grand Am conversion. The 88 brakes are ok, but admittedly I do miss the vented Grand Am's brakes.

I'm very surprised by this statement. The '88 brakes are very similar in design to the Grand Am stuff. Did you rebuild the '88 calipers when you installed them? I rebuilt all four calipers on my Formula a few years ago. Even without changing the lines or the pads this made a HUGE difference. The brakes are now very firm and work great.

Also, want to tell me more about that '88 front coilover setup you have pictured above? I'm building another rally car, out of an '88 this time, and have just started thinking about adjustable ride height in front. Your setup looks very clean and simple and appears to require few (no?) modifications to the control arms.

Doug

David

I also want to do this swap! It is a very good write up, with nice pictures. Compliments!!
Like Doug I also would like a coil-over setup using the original 88 lower A arms and original diameter lowering springs instead of going the expensive Held-route.

Any extra info and pictures are very welcome, aspecially conserning the cutting and welding parts. You talk about a flap that you cut, bend over and reweld? I can't make out exactly what you mean in the pictures. Maybe you have more pictures or maybe you could draw in the pictures in this thread. The same goes for the squares cut out.

I have allready purchased the 88 front put I'm hesitant to start cutting and welding before I'm sure exactly where and how.

Thankyou in advance for any additional info

Iwan

bumpety bump