Stock Getrag Five Speed* Gear: Ratio 1 --- 3.50 2 --- 2.05 3 --- 1.38 4 --- 0.94 5 --- 0.72 Final Drive 3.61
- Gear-type of limited differential standard on both. - Equal length axles - Prices (estimates): $6000 - $7000 Six Speed $4000 - $5000 Five Speed - Due to tranny case size some modifications to the frame may be needed for clearence. - WCF adjustable shift cables will be used during development but we hope to make it accessable to stock cables. - Price does NOT include clutch.
Chris West's 3.4 Twin Cam Turbo will be the first recipient of the 5 speed (the 5 and 6 speed share the same tranny case) for development purposes.
Due to current projects in progress (Kameo Kid may want to have his car back sometime before we dive into this project) the start date should be late spring.
Of course, there will be pictures galore of the build up....
As was stated in an earlier thread, yes, there will be an adaptor plate.
Until the project is completed, we would rather keep the manufacturer under wraps. There has been a fair amount of time and money that has been spent on research so for now, we will have to keep those cards close.
That being said, these transaxles have been race proven and will be widely available once the cat is out of the bag. So yes, in essence, they are already built. We just need to adapt them to a Fiero.
IP: Logged
11:35 PM
Apr 7th, 2004
moto838 Member
Posts: 139 From: Edgewater Co. Jeferson Registered: Mar 2004
Man I can see a home In one of my V8 lambo clones. Hey I'm up for some druability testing, and if it passes ya know it's tuff. I can be very hard on parts when I wanabe. Joe
IP: Logged
12:13 AM
virii01 Member
Posts: 515 From: Lincoln, NE, USA Registered: Mar 2003
There is no relation to DKOV and I'm not sure as to how it would compare to his or how he would be able to have a six speed for $1800.
We at WCF have chosen a different route and should have a prototype running around by the end of summer if all goes well. If things REALLY go well, perhaps we can have it at the West Fest in July.
If he can do it for $1800 than we won't be selling too many 6 speeds.
Simple as that.
Competition usually improves the breed.
IP: Logged
12:41 AM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
Gotta say you have my attention. After looking at the gear ratio's I would like to ask why you chose to have the 5 and 6spd to have the same ratio with both having the same final gear ratio, to me it says I would be spending about a grad, by your estimates there, to say I have a sixth gear. I am not complaining by any means, I like the ratios and how they are spaced, just curious as to why you went that route insted of haveing the sixth gear as a .6 something Also, are do you have any plans for any different final gear ratio? either way, you or DKOV will probably end up with a lot of my money pending on final product and gear ratios.
IP: Logged
01:02 AM
WKDFIRO Member
Posts: 1637 From: Cerritos, California, USA Registered: Nov 1999
Part of the research was finding out what has been successful without having to reinvent the wheel. Costs do need to be adhered to when contemplating what we want and what we can afford.
The gears are, for the most part, set in stone at this point in the game.
Personally, I'll be surprised if we sell more than 5 of the six speeds in 2 years. They are a very high comodity for a Fiero and only for the absolute serious upgrades.
There is no speed or power without money. But everyone seems to try to get it that way.
The reality is that for racing, the 5 speed actually is more practical. Six speeds is for bragging rights and long, long stretches of road at high speeds.
The production 6 speeds that I am aware of, namely on the Vette and Viper are not used for top speeds but rather an over-overdrive of sorts.
IP: Logged
01:34 AM
PFF
System Bot
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
As was stated in an earlier thread, yes, there will be an adaptor plate.
I didn't see that thread. Thanks for answering.
quote
Until the project is completed, we would rather keep the manufacturer under wraps. There has been a fair amount of time and money that has been spent on research so for now, we will have to keep those cards close.
I understand.
quote
The reality is that for racing, the 5 speed actually is more practical. Six speeds is for bragging rights and long, long stretches of road at high speeds.
I disagree. I think the 6-spd would be better for racing (any sort of racing that involves turning corners, that is).
Why? Closer ratios. The 6-spd basically gives you a usable 5th gear. By my calculations (which may be off a little bit), at 6000 RPM in 4th gear, the 6-spd is around 95mph and the 5-spd is around 105mph. The 4-5 spacing in the 6-spd is a lot closer making 5th gear something that you'd actually use once in a while.
In the interest of full disclosure I should say that I'll probably never buy one. Although the price you're asking is not out of line for a good gearbox I simply can't justify spending that much money on my race car.
With that said, are these going to be synchro boxes or dog boxes?
Doug
------------------ Doug Chase Chase Race Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication
IP: Logged
03:21 AM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6241 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Great to see these things taking shape, but looking at the gear ratio's, those 5 and 6 speeds aren't gonna give much for high speed, unless you have a high rev motor.
Just some quick numbers of lets say a Fiero on stock 215 /60 R 15 rear tires, with the engine turning at 5000
Stock Getrag - 144 mph WCF 5 spd - 120 mph WCF 6 spd - 129 mph
No doubt there is a significant jump in the acceleration curve, and these things will be great for racing, what about the guy on the street that's looking for simply a stronger transaxle without loosing the fuel mileage and wants something thats not making you run the motor at higher revs day to day?
Same car at 60 MPH for engine speed.
Getrag - ~2100 RPM WCF 5 spd - ~2500 RPM WCF 6 spd - ~2300 RPM
Obviously these aren't for anybody, it'll be mostly racers and people that want the bragging rights that will be buying these.
Don't take what I said the wrong way, I'm just sitting here thinking about what I'd want to put behind a V8 or a 3800SC so that I could use it some and not worry about blowing the transaxle up, but in the same breath I don't want to sacrafice fuel mileage, or drive down the highway at the posted limit, reving harder than before.
Some of use do big engine swaps to enjoy once inawhile, and maybe run it down the track a few times, but I don't think theres many folks in the Fiero community that wants a race tranny for every day use.
Again, these are just my thoughts.
Like was stated earlier, some choices in Gear and final drive ratio's would be real nice.
IP: Logged
04:21 AM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
NO!! I wanted something like the stock gearing.. for fuel and top end is kind of nice, possibly including a longer first gear like 40-45 mph.
those prices look freaking awesome, but since jelly posted and mentioned stuff like fuel mileage and what not I'm suddenly bummed again. I would love to see something near the stock gearing, heck if it was like stock I'd be all for it just knowing I have something that can handle the power
it's a step in the right direction for those that want it though. I'll be still following the threads watching
Can the final drive be changed out? Also, sometimes slightly steeper final drive ratios are nicer, as in turbo engines. Then better mileage would be nice too. Or will tha reduce the HP rating?
Steve
IP: Logged
07:28 AM
Apr 8th, 2004
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Would it really hurt gass mileage? Those numbers look like they'll give you quicker acceleration which I think means, it easier on the engine (higher manifold numbers), if you drive at or near leagal speeds most of the time, where's the problem?
IP: Logged
05:14 PM
fieroman87 Member
Posts: 647 From: Lancaster, PA Registered: Nov 2003
Those gear ratios may mean better accereration BUT, you won't be seeing 30+ MPG on the highway anymore. In all reality, these trannys are for 3800SC and SBC swaps, both of which have massive amounts of LOW torque. That combined with our cars light weight means we can get away with longer gears for miliage and top speed. Personaly i don't like the idea of haveing to change gears mid way through a corner, AND i don't like the idea of having to fight wheel slip through the first 4 gears, that's just too much. These trannys NEED a longer (taller) FGR and first gear for them to be usable in the real world.
Ahhh ... the holy grail of transmissions j/k I am always interested in transmissions, probably because I break so many. You mentioned HP ratings at the beginning of the thread, as well as the fact that these are raceproven. Which leads to my questions. What was the torque curve these things were exposed to, size of the engines, ("A' naturel" only?), any exposure to power adders ( turbo, super,nitrous) ... and how much torque can either of them handle?
Thanks Tina
------------------
IP: Logged
07:49 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
No offense to anybody, but gimme a freakin' break!! WCF comes up with what is potentially a great transmission swap for our cars and some of you are worried about gas mileage?!?
Come on folks, if you have $7k to drop on a new transaxle then you probably already have a really nice toy and gas mileage is the last thing on your mind.
Let's keep this in perspective.
Doug
IP: Logged
10:07 PM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6241 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Doug, not all of us are looking for a race transaxle, but a streetable bullet proof transaxle.
No ones shooting this down, just stating what we as consumers would like to see.
You build something people want, not build something and expect people to buy it if it's not what they are looking for.
For me to buy one, it would be potentionally 10 grand, and for that kind of money, a transaxle should dang well perform like I want it to.
I respect you Doug, so I didn't take your last post negatively, but lets sit back and see what the people want. I'm sure there are more pro's or con's yet to be herad of that I didn't even get into mentioning.
Maybe WCF will try to accomodate all of us, maybe not. The ball is in their court.
IP: Logged
10:19 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
That's a fantastic transmission for something like a 3.4DOHC, but for the V8 Fiero, the ratios are a bit steep. First gear in a Getrag is almost useless on a hi power V8, and while the WCF tranny has better gear spacing, the overall first gear is about the same. If they could get that 5-speed with about a 3.65 final drive ratio, it would be nearly perfect for a V8.
Would the 4.06 ratio keep me from buying one? No, but if I had a choice, I'd get one with a 3.65 or so final drive (for a V8). If I was doing a V6, I'd stick with the 4.06 ratio.
IP: Logged
11:14 PM
PFF
System Bot
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6241 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Just thought of something, What would happen if you mate up a V8 Archie swap and a WCF transaxle? Does the car instantly blow up? Who do you call if the setup dont work? " It's their fault...NO it's their fault"...
Not putting either vendor down, but when the thought crossed my mind, I had to laugh!
Just thought of something, What would happen if you mate up a V8 Archie swap and a WCF transaxle? Does the car instantly blow up? Who do you call if the setup dont work? " It's their fault...NO it's their fault"...
Not putting either vendor down, but when the thought crossed my mind, I had to laugh!
It would be their fault.
I've heard these stories before, where something has been tested & proven to hold up to XXX horsepower, etc. But yet details of those "tests" are lacking.
More power to them if they can do it. But at the prices they've been quoting I would expect that only a very few will step up and pay the $$$ initially, while the others' here will wait & see what happens. Sales & profits will be very slow until a few independants actually run the transmission & prove it works in the real world.
When I started doing the V-8 swap kits, it was slow going for the 1st 4+ years until people started to realize that it would stay together and be reliable. During those initial years there were a lot of times where all I had in my pocket was lint. In those days (before the Internet) the only way to "prove" that my concept was reliable was to drive it to shows all over the country trying to get a few lines in a Magazine or newsletter. These days people want to come up with a new product and have it obtain maximum sales right away. If that doesn't happen right away they tend to give up. Someone selling a product in this price range needs to be prepared to produce, sell & service the product for a couple of years before getting any real ROI.
With that being said, I'd like to volunteer to be the initial test bed for this wonder transmission. While WCF is working on initial bugs in producing them, I could put one of the initial production units in one of my cars (with 450+ HP) and after some initial testing make that car availale to anyone who wanted to stop by my shop or any show I take it to for a no-holds barred test drive. If it works as advertized, this method would give WCF a heads-up on reaching maximum sales ASAP.
Maybe we could even get George to donate one of his 500+ HP clutches to get all the power of that engine delivered directly to that transmission.
Until then I'll do like everybody else & wait & see.
Good luck.
Archie
------------------
IP: Logged
12:30 AM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6241 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Actually, Archie has a good idea, and it would be a great way for them to be able to work together without competing with each other. If both WCF and Archie are showing prototypes at shows, the number of people seeing these new trannys will be much higher.
Also, considering Archie and WCF have never been business partners, can you think of a better advertisement for the transmission than Archie saying, "I put the WCF transmission in one of my cars with 450HP and beat it like a dog, and I just couldn't break that transmission. I'm impressed."
I realize water under the bridge makes this very unlikely, but this could be a win-win situation for both of you. Heck, if those trannys work that well, Archie could even start recommending them as upgrades for his high-end swaps.
Or, you guys can poke each other with sticks.
IP: Logged
01:41 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Doug, not all of us are looking for a race transaxle, but a streetable bullet proof transaxle.
No ones shooting this down, just stating what we as consumers would like to see.
Thanks Jelly,
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Perhaps my point would have been better stated by simply saying that anybody looking for this (or any) bullet proof transaxle probably has performance a lot higher on their priority list than fuel economy.
And on this:
quote
You build something people want, not build something and expect people to buy it if it's not what they are looking for.
For me to buy one, it would be potentionally 10 grand, and for that kind of money, a transaxle should dang well perform like I want it to.
As was stated in an earlier thread, yes, there will be an adaptor plate.
Question... any chance you can tell us what bolt pattern this plate is based on? Also, how would one then have to mate it to a SBC? A set of adaptor plates, or a custom re-designed SBC plate? Just wondering how much added depth we can stuff in there (especially if you mention possibly having to do a little modification for clearance already)?
So many questions... so little time (so - when can we drive one )! Keep us posted - this is already looking to be a very interesting topic!
Until we actually have it in Chris' Fiero, most of the answers to these questions are theoretical at best.
I can say that the transaxles have been raced and the preference is for the 5 speed. Putting 6 gears in means that the gears need to be smaller than if you only had 5 gears. Smaller is not always stronger and a sixth gear rarely used on the track is called dead weight.
This isn't a magical transaxle, its case is not welded shut so changing out final gears simply means more money. I believe that the plan will be to put it in as it is and see what it will do. If it needs adjustment then we'll adjust it. If it gets put into another type of Fiero, we will need to see what it will do with that particular set up. If we find that a certain gear ratio is better for it to have in a Fiero than adjustments will be made. There is a wide range of Fiero powertrain out there with an even wider range of go fast goodies. To go out the gate with different gear ratios will not give us any kind of baseline to compare to. We at WCF know that people are going to want to see how it is over the long term for this product. We're the same way, which is why the first will be going into a Fiero we have intimate knowledge of and can keep an eye on.
Even after the transaxle is proven, it will still be an ongoing experiment. Just how long will it take for a 3800 SC to slag the synchros? 10 years? 10 days? Never? How was it driven? We are still seeing a few things that surprise us from time to time like the choice of tranaxle configurations. Like all things, it takes time.
Racing wise, this transaxle has been subjected to turbo and supercharged powertrains with relative high amounts of rpms. This is not to say that that this transaxle is bullet proof. None of them are. Abuse any kind of machinery and its lifespan is shortened. Ultimately every transaxle will have the final say on when it decides to give up no matter how well its been maintained or rebuilt or manufactured. If a transmission can break on a race car such as NASCAR or even Formula 1 it can give up on a Fiero.
At this point in the game, development is aimed primarily at the V6 configuration (3.4 Twin Cam / 3800 SC). For right now, configuration on current V8 set ups cannot be decided until preliminary testing is completed. Future development for the V8 is very possible we just have to do one thing at a time.
IP: Logged
04:24 PM
FordsNeverDie Member
Posts: 952 From: Puyallup, WA Registered: May 2003
Due to current projects in progress (Kameo Kid may want to have his car back sometime before we dive into this project) the start date should be late spring.
Yes Kameo wants his car back so quit playing on the computer and get back to work...
------------------ 3.4 DOHC Turbo swap in progress
IP: Logged
07:47 PM
Apr 28th, 2004
WKDFIRO Member
Posts: 1637 From: Cerritos, California, USA Registered: Nov 1999
Looking at the picture... it's not the VW 6 speed I've from time to time suggested as a possibility. It's not the SVT Focus/Cooper S 6 speed, as that's dual layshaft and wouldn't be any longer than the stock Fiero transmission. Hmmm.... Saab/GM?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
IP: Logged
11:04 PM
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
kinda back to the whole mileage and stock ratios thing... I'd just like a tranny that can handle around 300-450 hp without too much worry. and as I build my motors for revs, I'd like it to be able to handle higher revs.
Josh
------------------ ~ 84 Indy (Race Project) ~ 85 SE (NSAN1T) ~ 84 SE (?Parts?) ~
IP: Logged
11:29 PM
May 7th, 2004
Sacred Member
Posts: 180 From: Midlothian, VA Registered: Mar 2002
