I've had a Fiero for little more than a year and I've read numerous times that the '88 suspension was designed by Lotus... I've also read a number of times that the Lotus suspension claim is just an urban legend... But then it seems that I still quite often see people claiming that their '88 suspension was designed by Lotus as if there's no doubt that it was. I'm sure this has been a topic on here before but I didn't even bother to search the archives... This is a great site, but the search function isn't exactly the site's strong point (sorry Cliff).
On the same website (links below), there's an article that says the '88 suspension was "designed by Lotus of England" and another article that says, "its just a myth".
So, once and for all, what is the deal with that? It seems like the "Fiero communtiy" would have come to accept that it's common knowledge to be true---or not true. Well, it can't be both, so which is it?
At the 20th Anniversary show, Hulki explained all. GM went to the Lotus factory to see their PAINT procedure.
All a 1988 Fiero has in common with a Lotus suspension, it that it has a similar design - period. Lotus has nothing to do with it, although GM engineers may have LOOKED at a Lotus suspension.
GM also bought a Fiat X-19 and a couple Ferrari's to study mid-engine layout, but you don't hear that the Fiero was designed by Fiat or Ferrari.
That one comment has been misqouted and repeated so often that it is indeed an Urban Legend now
At the 20th Anniversary show, Hulki explained all. GM went to the Lotus factory to see their PAINT procedure.
All a 1988 Fiero has in common with a Lotus suspension, it that it has a similar design - period. Lotus has nothing to do with it, although GM engineers may have LOOKED at a Lotus suspension.
GM also bought a Fiat X-19 and a couple Ferrari's to study mid-engine layout, but you don't hear that the Fiero was designed by Fiat or Ferrari.
That one comment has been misqouted and repeated so often that it is indeed an Urban Legend now
Okay. If Hulki said it, then that settles it. Thanks.
The fact of the matter is that Lotus DID have a hand in designing the suspension of the 88 Fiero...kinda...in a round about way that is. Here's the REAL scoop behind the "Designed By Lotus" suspension story. Roger Becker (of Lotus) had been working with Toyota in the very early 80s on a Lotus/Toyota prototype called the X100. It was designed as a front-engined convertible that was powered by a Toyota 1600 twin cam. Needless to say the project never took off due to financial issues and design conflicts between Lotus and Toyota. There were a couple of prototypes made and they looked sweet...this design later became the Lotus Elan. Anyway, Toyota took the suspension that Roger Becker had designed for the X100 and used it on THEIR newly designed...you guessed it...MR2! At this same in the US, the GM team (who had just bought out Lotus) was designing our little Fiero. An interesting tidbit to note here is that while some feel that Toyota got the idea of the MR2 from GM's Fiero, both design teams actually found out about each others cars while still in the design phase. I think that Roger Becker was probably the common ground between the two teams. So I guess, the GM team finally ditched their own suspension design for the better Roger Becker designed suspension for the 88 Fiero. Alas, the story has some truth...kinda.
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07:53 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
The fact of the matter is that Lotus DID have a hand in designing the suspension of the 88 Fiero...kinda...in a round about way that is. Here's the REAL scoop behind the "Designed By Lotus" suspension story. Roger Becker (of Lotus) had been working with Toyota in the very early 80s on a Lotus/Toyota prototype called the X100. It was designed as a front-engined convertible that was powered by a Toyota 1600 twin cam. Needless to say the project never took off due to financial issues and design conflicts between Lotus and Toyota. There were a couple of prototypes made and they looked sweet...this design later became the Lotus Elan. Anyway, Toyota took the suspension that Roger Becker had designed for the X100 and used it on THEIR newly designed...you guessed it...MR2! At this same in the US, the GM team (who had just bought out Lotus) was designing our little Fiero. An interesting tidbit to note here is that while some feel that Toyota got the idea of the MR2 from GM's Fiero, both design teams actually found out about each others cars while still in the design phase. I think that Roger Becker was probably the common ground between the two teams. So I guess, the GM team finally ditched their own suspension design for the better Roger Becker designed suspension for the 88 Fiero. Alas, the story has some truth...kinda.
Well I have no idea where you got that story, but it isn't the "REAL" story. The First the Fiero was actually designed in the late 70's. The "space frame" was already designed and they had a few frames already built before Toyota began designing the MR2. Hulki was driving around a prototype by March of 1980. They did not do it at the same time. The delay in the Fiero was getting it past GM corporate. This delayed the car for two years. Originally they wanted the Fiero to come out in 1982. As for the "Lotus" myth, The 88 suspension is simular in geomtery of the suspension to a Lotus. That is the only simularity. The entire myth on "designed by Lotus" was due to Car and Driver magazine. They were the first to test drive an '88. A comment was the car had "a re-designed suspension giving it a lotus like handling" Soon everybody assumed it was designed by Lotus and every magazine followed suit and printed the suspension was designed by Lotus. The 88 suspension was designed around late 85/early 86. The Geometery of the unequal control arms is what Lotus uses. GM designed the suspension with the same geometery to improve handling and reduce bump steer. You should read Gary Wirtzburger's book "Fiero" to get the real story.
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-01-2004).]
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11:28 PM
May 1st, 2004
LITEDAZE Member
Posts: 1894 From: Timmins ON Canada Registered: Apr 2004
So then the green and gold factory fender badges that state "handling by lotus" are fraudulent? Not trying to be a smart a$$ or incorporate sarcasm, i'd just really like to know if they're fakes..
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02:25 AM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
So then the green and gold factory fender badges that state "handling by lotus" are fraudulent? Not trying to be a smart a$$ or incorporate sarcasm, i'd just really like to know if they're fakes..
The fact of the matter is that Lotus DID have a hand in designing the suspension of the 88 Fiero...kinda...in a round about way that is. Here's the REAL scoop behind the "Designed By Lotus" suspension story. Roger Becker (of Lotus) had been working with Toyota in the very early 80s on a Lotus/Toyota prototype called the X100. It was designed as a front-engined convertible that was powered by a Toyota 1600 twin cam. Needless to say the project never took off due to financial issues and design conflicts between Lotus and Toyota. There were a couple of prototypes made and they looked sweet...this design later became the Lotus Elan. Anyway, Toyota took the suspension that Roger Becker had designed for the X100 and used it on THEIR newly designed...you guessed it...MR2! At this same in the US, the GM team (who had just bought out Lotus) was designing our little Fiero. An interesting tidbit to note here is that while some feel that Toyota got the idea of the MR2 from GM's Fiero, both design teams actually found out about each others cars while still in the design phase. I think that Roger Becker was probably the common ground between the two teams. So I guess, the GM team finally ditched their own suspension design for the better Roger Becker designed suspension for the 88 Fiero. Alas, the story has some truth...kinda.
But the Lotus Elan was a '60s front engine RWD. The first with struts at all four corners, I believe. Rear struts then became known as "Chapman struts". Even the Elite came out in the early 70's. The Europa was earlier:
Ok, Hulki has said it many times that Lotus was not involved. The suspension may be similar to a lotus design, but how many different ways can you design a suspension? Engineers will look at other designs, they hardly every start from scratch. The 88 suspension is not a marvel in engineering... it is lighter and more adjustable than the old design, which was taken from the FWD layout. It just makes sense to upgrade the suspension over time so the car didn't look and act as a parts-bin car.
As for the badges, they are from the Impulse and they are sold on Ebay for the fiero. They are a joke.
The 88 suspension was in the works all along, but because of money constraints, it was not released until 88.
While I was at the junkyard today, picking over what was left of the only Fiero they had (notchback, of course), and a guy walked up and said that if it was an '88 (it was an '87), he would've pulled the Lotus suspension. I just smiled and called it an urban legend, then explained Hulki's comments to him. He didn't buy it and left still insisting that he had paperwork at home confirming that Lotus had really did the suspension
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03:20 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Right... and sort of like the junkyard in my area that had a ton of fiero parts. The problem is that they left them outside. They were take off parts from kit cars. A ton of coupe parts, good enough to just put on. They must be trashed by now.. as they were pretty bad years ago (crushed under their own weight and from the weather).
They were hoping for the rebound in prices... but with the junk they had.. sigh.. nothing....
So then the green and gold factory fender badges that state "handling by lotus" are fraudulent? Not trying to be a smart a$$ or incorporate sarcasm, i'd just really like to know if they're fakes..
the badges are from an isuzu, the same car the 4 bangers 5 speed trans was from the turbo model did have lotus design work and the badges on it
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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04:44 PM
pollock Member
Posts: 424 From: denton, texas, usa Registered: Sep 1999
This past Friday while at the local cruise in, I met a man that was VERY INFORMED about Fieros. Most people that stop and look at my car try and dazzle me with all kinds of Fiero stories. As usual, most of the stories are full of s--t. This man knew what he was talking about, he knew way too many names, stories, dates, facts and so on. I asked about the fires and what the real outcome was by G.M. He told me it was the owners not keeping track on the oil quantity plus the fact on not having the correct amount of oil to put in on a oil change leading to the connecting rods coming apart.
He told me about the all alum 1.8L Sunbird eng that GM played with in the Fiero.----??????
Of course I asked him about the Lotus running gear and he laughed. To make a long story short, he said that Lotus had NOTHING to do with the Fiero design. Like the other car builders, foreign car people were employed at various times, just like they are today.
This guy worked for G.M. for 29 years before retirement 8 years ago. He still keeps the only business card left after all this time. His name is John C. Willsey and he lives in Gladwin Mi. 48624
I talked to him for 10-15 minutes before he had to leave. I could have talked all night but he had to go.
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07:27 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
Rocky64----If you want to I can PM you his phone number and address. Let me know. He was in Miami for a visit so I don't know when he will be back home.
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08:38 PM
PFF
System Bot
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
Rocky64----If you want to I can PM you his phone number and address. Let me know. He was in Miami for a visit so I don't know when he will be back home.
The "Handling By Lotus" stickers? You know that it isn't...And I know it isn't...But I still have them on my car. Makes for sitting back and listening to some good "Yep...I know all about them Feerraries" stories. Thought about taking them off before Carlisle so I wouldn't get harrassed, but then just decided...Screw it. Leaving them on.
If the '88 suspension wasn't designed by Lotus, then why is the 88 suspension hardware in metric measurement, and the 84-87 is standard american measurement???
------------------ Airman Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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03:35 AM
jeffndebrus Member
Posts: 2772 From: Jacksonville, Fl- usa Registered: Aug 2001
Alright smart a*& since all of us don't live in Michigan and know our cars designer by name and havn't slept with his neice--- why not tell us your version of the Fiero existance.
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08:06 AM
sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
If the '88 suspension wasn't designed by Lotus, then why is the 88 suspension hardware in metric measurement, and the 84-87 is standard american measurement???
GM was bribed by Craftsman and Snap-On to change the bolts to metric so that mechanic's would have to buy more tools.
PS. IMS, the rear control arm pivot bolts are 18 mm and the rear hub nut is 30 mm, so some of the 84-87 is already metric.
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04:35 PM
sentinel_76ca Member
Posts: 540 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Registered: Jan 2002
I believe a more fitting badge might be "Suspension Inspired by Lotus"
Bingo, it was a marketing phrase used in some of the 88 literature, "Lotus Inspired Suspension" I'd have to dig through my book to find the exact ad, maybe that'll be a make work project, I'll see if I can scan it
------------------ Steve Ottawa Fiero 84 3100 5 Speed 85 Stock SE
