quote Originally posted by Oreif: Misstatements??? Where did I misstate something?????? I have not posted any "misinformation".

Right here.

quote As for the folks stating that KYB's are not stiff enough, I have not had any problems with my set-up. The only thing I can think of is if they are using stock or cut stock springs it may be too soft, But with Eibach's it is very stiff.

so, now we know.
Find out where/how you are going to driving first, then find out how you like to drive it, then work out what fits. "ultimate handling" is not a magic wand or come in a box. an ultimate Solo2 car is not an ultimate road coarse car. most of us just want something tight for street driving, without that silly bouncing over bumps. So, where do you plan on driving? if its just street, do the usual lowered springs, poly cradle & a-arms, and some fresh struts.

Edit: oh yeah - tires. tires have ALOT to do with how well the car handles & feels. Its a world of difference between 185/80-13 & 215/40-17

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 06-03-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: You actually show a clear lack of understanding. It is very simple, more spring = more damper. You up a spring rate, you need to up the damping rate to match. By throwing a shock absorber that was intended for a street car with stock spring rates on one that is intended for a road course with higher spring rates, you are the one, not I, who is mismatching damping rates. let me ask you something, how do you match your KYB to your spring selection? Does it magically just work? Do you have a damper fairy?

No I don't need a "damper fairy" I have a company that specializes in damper design and has an entire engineering department to provide technical information.

KYB America LLC
140 N Mitchell Ct
Addison, IL
(630) 620-5555

Tech Department will tell you what the specific shock/strut is rated for and what spring rates to use:

KYB GR-2 Shocks and struts Recommended spring rates: 250 to 350 lbs

My Eibach Sportlines are 325 lbs Which is what Eibach recommended to me for a 1986 SE and what I was planning on using the car for.
(Road Courses and street driving) They also recommended what size front sway bar I should use as well.

So that right there also shows that the KYB's are stiff enough for the springs I am using. So what you ASSUME is a misstatement/misinformation is as usual incorrect.
You can call KYB and Eibach up and inqure about it yourself.

Whenever I change or modify something on my car I do research prior to doing the mod. Before deciding on the mod you first need to set parameters for what you want to accomplish. Then research what is available and see how each individual component works with other components and match them up. I did this for my suspension, my engine, my trans, and even the stereo system in the car. If you don't do research first you could end up wasting a lot of money. Sort of like buying a turbo engine and not having any clue how a turbo engine works, then having to spend time and money learning and correcting it.

In the case of my suspension, The Fiero chassis has a low PMI (Polar Moment of Inertia) due to it's mid-engine/rear wheel drive chassis design. By lowering the center of gravity and installing heavier springs I in effect changed the slip angle. So instead of cranking the camber more negative or going to an oversized low profile tire, I changed the suspension slip angle to keep the tire flat on the ground when cornering. This maintains the largest contact patch of the tire to the surface of the road allowing for maximum traction while keeping alignment neutral.

Here is a good book for all to read:
Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building & Tuning for High Performance Handling, by Herb Adams

The book sells for about $20 and it will explain the basics of how a suspension works as well as how to tune it for specific types of racing.
There is even a section on mid-engined and rear engined cars that is especially helpful since the mid-engine section covers the Fiero and the Porsche 914 specifically.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 06-03-2004).]

Another good thread heading to the trash can

quote Originally posted by shop_rat45: Another good thread heading to the trash can

Not really.
There is good info here. I have posted all I need to say. So let's hear from what others have done.

Oh man does your ignorance show once again. . . do you even know what slip angle means?

quote Originally posted by Oreif: In the case of my suspension, The Fiero chassis has a low PMI (Polar Moment of Inertia) due to it's mid-engine/rear wheel drive chassis design. By lowering the center of gravity and installing heavier springs I in effect changed the slip angle. So instead of cranking the camber more negative or going to an oversized low profile tire, I changed the suspension slip angle to keep the tire flat on the ground when cornering. This maintains the largest contact patch of the tire to the surface of the road allowing for maximum traction while keeping alignment neutral.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Oh man does your ignorance show once again.

Actually it is your ignorance that is showing.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: do you even know what slip angle means?

Slip angle is the difference in which the cars wheels are pointed vs. the angle that the tires contact patch is placed on the road.
You can change your slip angle by manipulation of the individual load placed on each wheel.

I suggest you buy the book I posted above so you can understand suspensions and how to tune them better.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 06-03-2004).]

Well, at the very least we can say that us Fiero owners are passionate to a fault about setting up cars with "ultimate" handling! I think this discussion has potential for teaching us alot, but when people border on not being civil to others, an intelligent conversation risks getting lost in rhetoric.

Chill.

------------------

Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, Kosei K1s, Kumho Ecsta V700s, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

[This message has been edited by Spyhunter (edited 06-03-2004).]

I haven't used KYB struts but I have used Gabriels and they were absolutely worthless with 300# springs.
I had KYB front shocks and they were pretty bad with stock springs. Konis are immensely better. With the KYB front shocks, mid corner bumps would set up an un-nerving circular oscillation of the nose of the car... with stock front springs, which are pretty darn soft.

Talking about "changing slip angles" is nebulous at best. What did you change about your slip angle?

Fieros are undersprung and undertired in the rear from the factory.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

umm my car is fast.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta

*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*

Just out of curiosity, Those that posted the KYB's were soft, Which model did you use?
Were they the Gas-a-Just, GR-2 or the AGX? I'm curious if the problem is the style of shock/strut.

I'd stay away from KYB just because they don't even make a matched set for front and rear. They only make GR-2's for the rear and Gas-a-Just for the front. Same thing with Gabriel, Ultra for the rear, Gaurdian for the front.That's some BS right there. Monroe makes Sensa-Trac for the front and the rear. And as you all already know Koni makes front and rear sets...

------------------

My Cardomain page
www.FFDET.com

you could buy herb adams book and while you are waiting for amazon to deliver it, you could read this:

http://www.k12.nf.ca/gc/Staff/Teachers/Crummey/fiero/Handling.htm

included is the herb adams article on making fieros handle for kit car mag.
or go there directly:

http://www.k12.nf.ca/gc/Staff/Teachers/Crummey/fiero/herbadams.htm

hope this helps, i know it did for me, im buying some poly offset rear a arm bushings from 8 shark engineering - because they dont squeek!

by the way how do you guys get more tire in the rear? do you have to have mismatched rims? what about the new grand am 5 spoke rims? they look real cool and have 225 50 16 tires on them - does anybody know their width? could they be cut and rewelded to narrow them in the front - or cut and rewelded to widen them in the rear?

just wondering
jon

------------------
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

oh, well, gee, what a surprise.... where have the 'grown-ups' gone ...again......??? As usual, the same thing happens. A pretty good thread suffers from a total lack of judgement, self-control and communication ability. How immature, tiring and infantile. Some people just seem to need SO BADLY to appear as authority figures to the very people they also try to diss so much. One of those ultimate ironies, isn't it? Let's everyone understand; this (handling) is such a huge, enormous and complex subject that HUNDREDS of books have been written about it and continue to be written ..... so it is absolutely unavoidable for people to cover (here) EVERY aspect of handling in a paragraph or five! And it is also unavoidable that any and all people who are going to put their two cents in are going to be addressing their experience and their UNIQUE setup on their (somewhat worn & 20 year old) cars. Who knows what other factors, including driving styles, are at work behind the scenes? And equally, unless there is a FORMULA 1 crew chief on the forum, (wouldn't THAT be gold!?!) lets try to get something out of everyone's experience. THAT is what will make us all better educated. Sometimes it will be things to do and sometimes it might be things to avoid. But INFORMATION EXCHANGE is what makes this work, NOT needless, self-serving criticism and attitude.

So if someone has something that works for them, what is wrong with that? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The car has GOT to suit the driver more than any other requirement. No offence to anyone here, but I really doubt that anyone can 'jump into' (someone else's) NASCAR stocker (much less a really unforgiving formula car) and make it perform to ITS maximum. Just a simple fact - they have something called 'practise' before each race...... So individual knowledge, experience and setups are all fair game and worth hearing about. Until that Formula One guy (proven, by the way) steps up, NOBODY here knows everything about handling and suspension and the single, ultimate best way to set up .......someone else's .... car. I sure don't, and I won't BEGIN to pretend it either. But if I have a little thing to offer to someone, and maybe it is just explaining something in different words, then maybe I will if I think it may help. Boys o boys o boys. This should NOT be that hard to understand....

[/end rant]

THAT being said........ and keeping in mind the bit about the enormity of this subject....

Will; the talk about 'slip angle' sounds a bit far reaching, but in a nutshell, that is what it is all about...... making the car go in the direction the tire is pointed, that is. The front tires get 'pointed' by the steering wheel and the rear tires get 'pointed' by the fact that they describe an arc that is defined by the front tires actual path. Makes the front wheels pretty important...
With poor acting suspension (for whatever reason) you need to point the tire farther and farther in the direction of the desired turn to get the ACTUAL turning angle that you need..... ie you might need to turn the tires 45 degrees to get a 35 degree turn etc. While this all feeds back into a multitude of issues (as we've seen above) it does come down to tire loading, by and large, and reading Herb Adams or similar books (there are several good ones) shows how all tires have limits of loading and effective grip, and going past that limit transfers the excess load to the rest of the car (as much as is possible - subject to LOTS of limiting factors here too) or else makes it lose its line thru the corner. Oversteer, understeer, 4 whl drift, etc...
So having proper loading of the tires is (also) REALLY important and maybe not that hard to do. I posted an idea somewhere else about weighing and balancing all four corners (make sure you read up on it in a book - you have to do diagonals too!) using a matched set of 4 cheap bathroom scales in a box. You need 4 simply for total capacity; you can prob pick them up at Walmart for ~$10 or less each. As long as the car is level and flat (so all 4 corners have to be raised to the same height for best accuracy) and a 'tire cradle' or similar item is made up to spread each tire's load across all 4 scales evenly, it should be a pretty fair and cheap way to tune the car for better handling. Make sure the driver is in place and you have a full tank of gas etc. You may decide to mount the battery up inside the right front fenderwell etc to counter the driver's weight and to help move some of the rear weight forward, etc.
This can help find out if you for some reason have a heavily loaded corner (?) or imbalance front/rear or corner to corner. If for some reason you do (it may be an eye opener for those 120 lb and 280 lb drivers!) then you will have the ability to fix that. Again, a thing that hasn't been mentioned but is pretty easy and cheap to do and would help quite a bit. Maybe your local club will go in on the setup and pass it around. You will need the scale setup (scales and tire 'dolly' etc) and a set of 3 other matching wheel 'blocks' that will put your car at the same height all around.
I hope this thread can continue and that people won't decide to NOT put up their experiences and ideas and thoughts. 'Cause if that happens, then this forum has failed its intended purpose, hasn't it? And that would be too bad.
Have a great day, everyone!!!!!

Since we are talking “Ultimate” (I think this is very important), there are two aspects that have to be considered: components and set-up. Here’s what I see as good components:

Step 1) Tires: All the damping and polyurethane in the world doesn’t mean a thing if the car won’t stick to the ground. Now you mentioned the Firestone Indy 500s. These are a great “Touring tire.” I have them on my daily driver because they have great all weather traction and long tread life. They are not a performance tire. The sidewall is too soft, the tread pattern has compromises to improve the all weather handling, and the compound is too hard. If this is what you want for the street it will work, but don’t try to take these tires to a road coarse or an autocross. Like Pyrthian said: If you have a stock ’84 SE, stepping up to 17”s or even 16”s will make a world of difference. Also going with a tire like the Kuhmo ECSTA Supra 712s will change a car dramatically without any other modifications. If your serious about the track however, I’d look really close at getting some r-compound tires to put on a your old stock rims or a cheap set of 15”s and get 16” or 17” rims for your street tires. All in all, this upgrade would cost about $1200 for new street tires and rims and less than $600 for the R-compound tires mounted and balanced. With R-compound tires and a decent alignment, I guarantee that you can go faster than 98% of the Fieros on street rubber.

Step 2) dampers (shocks and struts) and springs. Now all of this arguing about KYB vs. Koni is just silly. The Koni is the better shock. No question. The KYB might work just fine, but it’s not adjustable. With the adjustment available, you can quickly (at least on the struts) change your damping rate to suit your driving situation, whether it be on the track or on the street. And that is why they are worth the money. Oh, BTW – there’s a place down in Atlanta, GA called SF Motorsports that sells Konis at REALLY GOOD prices. You could probably be out the door there for less than $500, shipped. If anyone would like the number, PM me.
As for spring, there are a number of directions from Eibach to suspension techniquies, that you can go. It seems that the Eibachs are a favorite and this is a good time to put those on because you’re replacing the shocks anyway.

Step 3) Poly bushings and Ball Joints. This is a no brainer for suspension upgrade, but I just don’t think it is as important as tires and shocks, until you really know how to feel your cars limits and reactions turning into corners. I also included ball joints because it’s a good time to replace them as well, as they can add quite a bit of slop to the suspension system. Oh and don’t forget the cradle bushings as well. If you don’t change those you’re wasting your money on any other poly bushing that you put in the rear of the car.

Step 4) Rear Sway bar. Getting an aftermarket rear sway bar will help the handling of the car. I do not have personal experience with this one, but it should decrease the amount of understeer at initial turn-in. Some have been known to simply put a front bar on the rear of the car, there have been opinions on this that are absolute polar opposites. My suggestion is to stick with the aftermarket bar that is designed for the rear.

Now the other side of this coin is setup and tuning. This is largely up to personal preference, but it is always good to have a decent baseline, so start here: http://www.8shark.com/10.htm From there drive the car and tweak some of the settings such as tire pressure, strut damping rate (for konis only), and weight ballast. If you can do your own alignments, you can also toy with camber and toe-in, as well. Remember to only change one item at a time, so you can figure out what effect the change has on the car.

After all of this is done you should have one sweet handling car and close to $2000 - $3,000 of upgrades into it. A loarge portion of this cost is wheels and tires, but remember the purpose of performance handling is to optomize the contact patch to the road and that means absolutley nothing if you're contacting the road with tires that can't grip.

Now all you will need is better brakes to bring it all to a halt that much quicker, but that’s another thread entirely.

I hope this helps, and good luck,

Troy

What I was trying to point out is that the assertion that suspension tuning changes slip angle is vague and nebulous at best. Assuming that the tires maintain good camber, the maximum slip angle a tire can sustain before it slides is a function of the tire construction (tread stiffness and depth among other things) and vertical loading. Vertical loading can be affected by suspension tuning, as far as the ratio of front loading to rear loading goes, but vertical loading is primarily affected by lateral G's and weight transfer. Now one could make the argument that changing camber or toe alters the slip angle at a given lateral G, but it doesn't affect the maximum slip angle.

Yes, tire stagger is important to making a Fiero handle well.
On the rear of my car I have 16x8 Grand Prix wheels with 255/50-16 tires and on the front 16x6 LeBaron wheels with 225/50-16. The car still has more lift-off reaction than I'd like, so I think I may drop the front tires back to 215/55 or 205/60 on the next tire change.
Anyway, set the tires up so that their sizes match the car's weight distribution. Once that's done, tuning the suspension is relatively easy.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

For any given tire, there's an optimum slip angle and from the tire data I've seen it doesn't change based on load.

You guys can make your own conclusions.

quote Originally posted by Will: What I was trying to point out is that the assertion that suspension tuning changes slip angle is vague and nebulous at best. Assuming that the tires maintain good camber, the maximum slip angle a tire can sustain before it slides is a function of the tire construction (tread stiffness and depth among other things) and vertical loading. Vertical loading can be affected by suspension tuning, as far as the ratio of front loading to rear loading goes, but vertical loading is primarily affected by lateral G's and weight transfer. Now one could make the argument that changing camber or toe alters the slip angle at a given lateral G, but it doesn't affect the maximum slip angle. Yes, tire stagger is important to making a Fiero handle well. On the rear of my car I have 16x8 Grand Prix wheels with 255/50-16 tires and on the front 16x6 LeBaron wheels with 225/50-16. The car still has more lift-off reaction than I'd like, so I think I may drop the front tires back to 215/55 or 205/60 on the next tire change. Anyway, set the tires up so that their sizes match the car's weight distribution. Once that's done, tuning the suspension is relatively easy.

quote Originally posted by Freshj: I'd stay away from KYB just because they don't even make a matched set for front and rear. They only make GR-2's for the rear and Gas-a-Just for the front. Same thing with Gabriel, Ultra for the rear, Gaurdian for the front.That's some BS right there. Monroe makes Sensa-Trac for the front and the rear. And as you all already know Koni makes front and rear sets...

This is the exact reason why I quit using KYB and went to Koni. It took several sets of KYB, spending more than a set of Koni's, to convince me that they KYB was not what I needed. I don't know how others cars feel to them, but I can tell you that Koni's were the single best thing that led to the improvement in handling for my car. The GR-2's are not a high pressure gas strut and are a softer strut than the Gas-a-Just, high pressure gas shock, for the front. This setup is the opposite that is needed for the Fiero. The Koni's allow you to balance the front to rear stiffness.

quote Originally posted by Will: Fieros are undersprung and undertired in the rear from the factory.

Will, what took you so long to post this excellent piece of advice that you normally add to the first few posts of these discussions. These are very close to the same words that came from the mouth of the gentleman who designed the Fiero. He added that the mid engine design is the best automotive design and that it will handle as much horsepower as you would like, as long as you add more rear tire.

When people discuss driving "at the limit", I think it is important to understand that there are the limits of the car and the limits of the driver. Both change as the car gets more functional modifications and the driver gains more confidence and experience. I learrned that on my first track day when, after pushing my car to "the limit", my instructor took me around for two laps and showed me that the car had much more "limit" than I did, even with the stock suspension. After many more track days and several suspension modifications, both my car and I have higher "limits". All of my modifications came over time, one change at a time and each change required some winshield time to get used to the different feel. The difference between my car today and when it was a stock suspensioned Fiero is dramatic, it drives dramatically different from stock and you have to drive accordingly.

My $0.02 might be over priced, but I would suggest starting with the replacement of the bushings that were stated to be either worn out or original (same thing). You pick between poly and rubber, they will both be better than worn out or original. I have poly everywhere and it doesn't squeak.

I changed my cradle bushings to aluminum to mount the cradle solid like the 88 cradle and limit movement to only the suspension.

A good set of shocks and struts is very important. You have lots of information here on that subject and I already shared my opinion. Anything would be better than what you describe as "original or worn out". People will defend their shock and strut choice because just having anything new was better than their "original or worn out" components.

As mentioned before, good tires with proper air pressure contribute a great deal to good handling.

These changes would be a good base point to begin. You will probably notice great improvement with these changes. While gaining windshield time with these changes, you can plan your anti-sway bar changes, lowering, bump-steer kits, additional tire stagger and other modifications based on budget and desire.

Good luck on reviewing the pages of information that you genterated by asking what you probably thought was just a simple question.

------------------
Bill Levin

[This message has been edited by 87GT3800SC5SPD (edited 06-04-2004).]

All i have to say is that I put a rear sway bar on my 86GT, and it's incredable.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: For any given tire, there's an optimum slip angle and from the tire data I've seen it doesn't change based on load. You guys can make your own conclusions.

If you interpret this graph a little differently... at a given normal force a given lateral force will generate a given slip angle. At a higher normal force, the same lateral force will generate less slip angle. Higher normal force is accomplished via greater weight transfer, but we know that's not necessarily the best thing for max lateral G.

Now going back to the way you interpret that graph, yes, there is an optimum slip angle for each tire... that slip angle is the maximum slip angle at that normal force. "Measured" slip angle is the angle between the direction of the tire and its direction of travel. I guess I'll call it "actual" slip angle is the stretch of the rubber at the rear end of the contact patch. Rubber can only stretch so far at a given normal force, which is what I meant by maximum slip angle. Beyond that the tire slides and measured slip angle increases, but actual slip angle doesn't get any higher because the rubber at the back end of the contact patch can only stretch so far. That's when kinetic friction sets in and lateral force drops.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Will, I do'nt want to pick nits here, but slip angle causes lateral forces, not the other way around. This is the only way a lateral force can act on a car. period. pushing a car at 5mph around a curve, you are creating a slip angle and in turn a lateral force is created.

I highly reccomend the Carrol Smith "To Win" series and Allan Stanaforth's "Competition Car Suspension". to everyone in this thread.

-Mike

this post is for the archives. . ..

I'll address the original poster's questions first.

quote What parts would you use on an 84 SE to make the car handle like a sports car, for road course/daily driving?

You really need to read a rule book for the class you're going to be racing in (are you going to be racing? ? I read road course and ultimate handling and think racing.) and then determine a budget.

In general, I would do Koni dampers. For ultimate dampers, they can re-valve them, make them DA and do other stuff pretty easily to the off the shelf units. There's a bunch of other damper manufactures that could also cater to ultimate shocks.

For ultimate springs, I would have sets of Ti ones custom wound to the rates that I calculated would be optimal and plus/minus in increments of 10in/lbs. For ULTIMATE springs, I might even start playing with progressive rates.

For normal springs, possibly the new WCF set of springs that include an adjustable perch rear if you're talking strictly off the shelf. A concern I would have with the WCF deal is that they are running 400lb/in springs up front. That is more spring then I would want to run. Chris and Eric both have told me that I would like it. However, I don't think they would have a problem working with you if you wanted a more sane rate like 300lb/in in the front since they offer it in another set.

The lower front control arms from RCC that allow you to use an adjustable coil-over with plain old ground controls in the rear would be another possibility.

Eibach Pro Kit just to start off would be another possibility.

Lowering spindles, stock springs and monster rollbars is another.

Honestly, there's a lot of stuff you can do and it's not black and white. There is a search function on this forum. If you're really going to be racing this thing on a road course, you're gonna have a box of springs and you're going to be trying new springs out constantly. You really need to read a rule book for the class you're going to be racing in to know what springs/modifications are legal.

For roll-bars, off the shelf, I believe Herb Adams' son is selling some nice ones. They're not cheap, but I've read good things. On my vehicle, I'll be putting together an adjustable splined set. How much fabbing do you want to do? Ultimate might be a cockpit adjustable blade bar.

quote I think Cali Kid has the best set-up suspension, but isn't his car an 88?

His car is an 88. I wouldn't call it the "best set-up." There isn't anything special about his setup. It is basically stock with Konis. (does that tell you something?)

quote And correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't add the 88 suspension parts to an earlier car, right?

You can add the rear suspension relatively easily. The front is harder from what I hear, but not impossible. If you're serious, I believe Will has done the front suspension swap and probably would be willing to talk you through what you need to do.

quote Also if you know where to get said parts and how much they cost, that would help

Konis will run you $500-$600 all around. Shox.com has pretty good deals on them. Springs are between $200 for the eibach pro-kit, ~$200 for the rear ground controls and $350 or so for the WCF deal.

Roll-bars are ~$200 each from Herb Adams I believe. Fierostore, WCF and others have them also.

I was lucky and found an 88 rear with suspension, hubs and brakes for $250. Maybe it was $200. I don't remember. They're out there though.

I hope that helped you. It probably didn't.

On the KYB vs KONI issue:

People that actually compete in their vehicle and endorse Koni:

Spyhuner:

quote I have an 87 GT, and have found my susp upgrades to work very effectively. Car definately handles like a sportscar now.

Doug Chase

quote I agree with Howard, the KYBs aren't stiff enough. For off the shelf stuff, Konis are the way to go. They're worth the money.

daveg

quote If you only have $500 total, buy Koni's. This will deliver the best performance per dollar of any modification/upgrade.

Will

quote I had KYB front shocks and they were pretty bad with stock springs. Konis are immensely better.

quote Now all of this arguing about KYB vs. Koni is just silly. The Koni is the better shock. No question.

I don't think you will find a single person who competes that will tell you they chose the KYB because it works better. If the poster wanted budget suspension suggestions, he would have titled his post, "Budget Handling 84-87." As far as I'm concerned, all the KYB talk is off topic in this post.

For Orief:

Books on top of my desk. I decided not to post the one of me giving you the birdie in front of the books. I've read the Adams book and it didn't make it to my collection. I'll second the Carroll books and the Staniforth ones. I'll go a step further, Competition Car Suspension is the FIRST thing anyone should read about suspension.

This is a picture from when I went to Penske to match dampers. The shock is a double adjustable (compression and rebound) Fox brand damper that has had its nitrogen pressure adjusted to decrease nose pressure.

I'm not going to comment on what you wrote regarding the KYBs and what KYB's tech said. People that really care will look into it and see that you are wrong.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: What parts would you use on an 84 SE to make the car handle like a sports car, for road course/daily driving?

Getting back to the original question, the first thing I would add is an '88 Fiero. Don't bother retrofitting the '88 suspension to the '84, it's not worth the time and effort. Just buy an '88 and then make the '88 handle like you want it.

Seriously.

I don't mean this as a slam against the early cars, but the '88 has far superior suspension and brakes. If you want the ultimate handling Fiero you might as well start with the best base and then improve from there instead of starting out playing catch up.

'88s can be picked up cheap, just keep your eyes open and have patience. In the past year I've purchased a running, drivable 5-spd Formula with minor LF body damage for $450. A friend picked up a running, drivable automatic coupe for $0. It had mice living in it but after cleaning up the interior it's in great shape.

Doug

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I'm not going to comment on what you wrote regarding the KYBs and what KYB's tech said. People that really care will look into it and see that you are wrong.

Howie, I'm only going to address this one last time.
First, I never said KYB's were better than KONI's, All I did was state what I was using and my opinion of how my suspension feels. I did state I felt the KONI's were too stiff FOR THE STREET. YOU were the one who ASSUMED how my car handles based on the fact that I was using KYB's and some high school physics book. You then post I don't know anything about springs vs. dampers and that the KYB's were not even good enough for the stock springs. Which I proved you wrong. If you would open your eyes and look around, I gave an OPINION based on what I was using and how I use the car. You apprear to only see the word "ultimate" with your narrow-minded vision and think the guy is building a race car.
The original post of this thread was:
"What parts would you use on an 84 SE to make the car handle like a sports car, for road course/daily driving?"
See the statement "handle like a sports car" Where does it say race car? He also states for "road course/daily driving", When I mentioned I tuned my suspension for a road course, you appeared to have no idea how to "tune" a suspension and asked if I had a "damper fairy".

Second, You would think that with all those nice unread books on your shelf at least one of them would have covered tuning a suspension for a style of chassis. By "unread" I see a few books that are paperbacks and have no creases on the bindings which means the book hasn't been used/read much. If anyone doubts me, Look at any paperbacked book and see for yourself. I really don't care what books you have on your shelf, You need to be able to read and understand the information, which by your past posts in this thread proves you don't. I bet your turbo books are in the same new looking condition as well.

And Finally......
Now you want to "give me the bird", That's an intelligent response from someone I don't respect, But hey to each his own.
As usual you've only proven that no matter how hard you try to dazzle us with your brilliance you end up wallowing in your own

Doug; I like your advice. I think in the next yr I will start watching. One question for you, tho' - for someone who DOES do an 88 cradle etc transplant into a pre-88, how close would you rate that to the 88 for handling? I don't know the ins and outs of the 88 front suspension setup.... and doing a swap is an option for me.

i noticed a few people had mentioned putting a set of drop springs on the car and i keep seeing the eibach's mentioned but i havent seen anyone mention the ST (Suspension Techniques) springs. are they any good? or are they crappy compared to the other brands?

Like suspension, I don't think you get it. Each and every time you post, you've been owned.

You never proved me wrong on KYBs with stock springs. What damping ratio does it have? That's right, you don't know.

Your dumbass ramblings on slip angles will be up here for YEARS for all to see. Anyone that knows anything about vehicle dynamics will know you're full of **** . How do you like them apples?

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Howie, I'm only going to address this one last time.

quote Originally posted by fiero308: Doug; I like your advice. I think in the next yr I will start watching. One question for you, tho' - for someone who DOES do an 88 cradle etc transplant into a pre-88, how close would you rate that to the 88 for handling? I don't know the ins and outs of the 88 front suspension setup.... and doing a swap is an option for me.

I'm not Doug, but the '88 front will give lighter steering effort and much better contact patch feel.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Each and every time you post, you've been owned. Your dumbass ramblings on slip angles will be up here for YEARS for all to see. Anyone that knows anything about vehicle dynamics will know you're full of **** . How do you like them apples?

Owned?? Dumbass ramblings??? HAHAHAHAHAHA (Thanks for the laughs)
Howie, Your a legend in your own mind. (Which is such a small feeble area at best)
Have a nice day.

quote Originally posted by Will: I'm not Doug, but the '88 front will give lighter steering effort and much better contact patch feel.

I guess just to ask (since it is ... 'related' to "Ultimate" handling....) I have a fair idea how/where the 88 rear is different, but what is the major difference for the front? I had the impression that the big difference was just the brake setup.
I ask because 'maybe' these things could be swapped off a wrecked 88 (found one) onto a pre-88. ??? I know the 88 cradle can be swapped; and I tend to wonder - if it is a careful swap - why that shouldn't make the rear basically as effective as an 88 (rear). Thus leaving just the front to be tended to. Is the front ass'y THAT different? I know about complexity and 'why bother' issues, but IF a person HAD an 88 with those parts intact (ie a roll-over etc) then this might be a possibility.

Longer control arms, better camber curve, smaller scrub radius (kingpin offset)

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

WOW you guts are making my eyes hurt!

Question:

Are the eibach springs and the ST springs the same rate? I have KYB's now and after all this reading I'm going to buy Koni's will the ST springs I have work?

Thanks for the info and now back to the regularly scheduled argument...

------------------
Mike

85GT 4-Spd 3.4 Stroker, cam, ported intake exhaust and TB. Natural weight reduction in progress(rust).
My other toy:
WWW.IcantDo55.com

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase: Getting back to the original question, the first thing I would add is an '88 Fiero. Don't bother retrofitting the '88 suspension to the '84, it's not worth the time and effort. Just buy an '88 and then make the '88 handle like you want it. Seriously. ...

Not taken as a slam, but I already have far too much time and money in my 87 GT to stop and swap it all to an 88. I'm definately going ahead with the 88 cradle swap. My question is with the front suspension as a swap. I like the idea of swapping the front suspension to my chassis (most importantly for the upgraded brakes), but I have concerns with the front bearings. The new eBearing replacements state not for racing use. What do you use for front bearings? Do they stand up to the abuse of racing? I have an 88 coupe for a parts car and the only thing I know I still need is a rear roll bar for an 88.

The front swap looks pretty straight forward. Looks like a couple of accurately drilled positioning holes are needed on the earlier chassis to line things up. Anything you can add to this?

Thanx,

------------------

www.fieroexcitement.com
www.azfieros.com
AzFieros Phoenix Area Event Coordinator / Webmaster

"You can run, but you'll just die tired!"

Actually, if it ISN"T too much of an impossibility, and swapping the front end of a totalled 88 is not that strange-sounding.....
I am now interested in what is involved in the front 'hub' assy that makes it so special and different. Any chance anyone has any kind of an exploded view or at least a pic of the spindle assy and maybe the bearing arrangement?

Just so I can see how that is different.

I have access to a wrecked 88 but the cradle assy and the front cross member are fine. So maybe......
Thanks to anyone for pix. If you want to PM them, that is fine too. I want to see what is so formidable about the bearing assy.